2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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AXX°N N.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

Post by AXX°N N. »

Jonah wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:57 pm Don't come at me with pitchforks (joke!) but - but - I did sometimes wonder if some critics were really kind to The Return because they weren't to FWWM, which was in retrospect reevaluated and lauded, and they were afraid of missing the boat again in case the same thing happened this time. It also reminded me of a review I read of Inland Empire where the reviewer said something like "I think it's a work of genius ... But I don't know if I understood it." (Not his exact words, I'm remembering a review from 14 years ago, so the quote will not be exact.) Anyway, probably not the case - as has been pointed out, critical reviews were uniformly positive. But it is just something that crossed my mind, not saying I necessarily believe that.
Yeah, to be honest, using critical reception as some kind of evidence for anything is a bit of a fool's errand in either direction. It's a really arbitrary pendulum that swings back and forth. I don't think the hostility Lynch used to receive was legitimate, and I don't think the praise he receives now is any more legitimate. The temperature has changed but it essentially means as much as it ever did, meaning not much at all, and one should be skeptical of the peer pressure and social significance of holding whatever "in" opinion there is in the critical community that can sway these receptions.

I don't think there's hostility in things like the woman in the car, nor do I think she's an audience proxy. I think Lynch is just fascinated with negativity, impatience and the behavior it can cause. That song on his debut album "Strange and unproductive thinking" is case in point. I've seen both regular viewers and critics at the time accuse old TP of being condescending and talking down to its audience and intentionally wearing out patience, so if it is an element it was always an element--but I personally don't see it. There are people in real life with impatience and negativity--Dorises and Chads abound. I'd be lying if I said I haven't felt like the screaming woman in the car before in my life, it's just I never felt it watching TP itself, though I'm aware others have before and with every installment new or old.

As for the creators, I've never gotten the impression from Frost interviews or Lynch BTS that they didn't really dig what they were doing. Especially in their old age I don't see why they would bother with something that didn't grab them.
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Audrey Horne
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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Yeah, echoing what Brad said. No nastiness, and enjoy all of you. And this is not an everyday event - just some of us touching base and happily bitching to one another and getting some of this out of our system.
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boske
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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Jonah wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:57 pm I didn't like what I perceived as it, at times, speaking down to its audience. I wonder if anyone else picked up on that? An example might be it really stretching out Dougie "waking up", hinting it could happen every episode, which is fine - but then that scene with the woman in the car outside the diner ranting about being in a hurry. It seemed to be speaking directly to the audience, chastising them for their impatience with that plot point and perhaps with the entire show's slower pace.
Definitely. I do not remember all the details now, I do recall listing them in "the thread", but there were plenty of Dougie teases and traps: Dougie staring at the badge, flag, gun, eating cherry pie, coffee, hustling Ike the Spike, you name it. And never did he wake up. The biggest hint that they knew what they were doing is the scene where Dougie sees himself in the mirror. He's wearing the same pyjamas that he was wearing in Ep. 29! That is not random! Recall that scene how he inspects the integrity of it (the mirror). And to top it all, he ultimately wakes up by remembering Gordon Cole, that tells it all.

I agree with your post completely, and am also tired, it has been a long week and is already too late.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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Also, this was a tangent a few pages ago, but I'm not sure "die hards are the ones with grievances" is any more generally true than "general audiences were left out." I myself am a diehard, I know plenty of diehards who were enthused, Blue Rose Mag crew for instance, and not to beat a dead horse, but it's really only here that I've seen hostility at all, die hards or otherwise. I think trying to pinpoint a general reason why, or attach some kind of blame to S3 for upsetting a certain mythical portion of its audience or fanbase, is futile. Echoing Brad's last post, I think in the end you can only reduce it down to a purely personal reason for each reaction.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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boske wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:20 pm Definitely. I do not remember all the details now, I do recall listing them in "the thread", but there were plenty of Dougie teases and traps: Dougie staring at the badge, flag, gun, eating cherry pie, coffee, hustling Ike the Spike, you name it. And never did he wake up. The biggest hint that they knew what they were doing is the scene where Dougie sees himself in the mirror. He's wearing the same pyjamas that he was wearing in Ep. 29! That is not random! Recall that scene how he inspects the integrity of it (the mirror). And to top it all, he ultimately wakes up by remembering Gordon Cole, that tells it all.
The teases are irrefutable, but I find it a tad cynical to conflate teases with insults or thinking less of an audience. There was risk involved with delaying so long, and you can say it's trusting the audience to actually take the risk.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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Brad D wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:39 pm
enumbs wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:20 pm
I don’t mean to be combative Brad, but some of your comments about season 3 admirers don’t sit well with me. Implying that people who love the show do so because they refuse to see fault in anything Lynch does, and suggesting that they live in “a Lynch echoplex” doesn’t seem to be a great example of accepting people’s opinions in good faith. Lynch has a history of making films and shows which often affect people on an extremely profound level, so it is hardly surprising that there are many people who consider season 3 a masterpiece.
It’s merely my personal experience that a certain bloc of TP fans go crazy over the slightest criticism of s3, and go to wild lengths to defend Lynch’s creative choices. I also think this board has become entirely devoid of humor. We are all TP fans and I think if we were in a room chatting and laughing it would take a different tone. If you can believe it, I totally understand why some people love The Return and think it’s one of the greatest things ever. I love many moments and by no means hate it. But, that does not seem like enough around here most days
It’s interesting how subjective even conversations about Lynch can be! I haven’t seen many fans going crazy about criticism of season 3, but I’m sure there have been some. My issue was not with criticism of the show but with the characterisation of season 3 fans as sycophants or cult-members. Can you see the frustration someone might have if after explaining an aspect of how the season emotionally affected them or struck them as interesting, somebody dismissed their sincere response as going “to wild lengths to defend Lynch’s creative choices”? It would be like responding to one of your thoughtful critiques of the show with “Well you just wanted coffee and cherry pie, didn’t you?”.

I don’t think I’m humourless about the show, but it’s only natural that if somebody makes fun of an aspect of season 3, a fan might chip in and say what they liked about it. I don’t know what you mean about quite liking parts of the show not being enough these days - I haven’t seen anyone insisting everyone worship the show, just exchanges of differing opinions. I like hearing your thoughts on the show very much, and it would be a shame if you stopped your recent streak of posts. I just hope that people take each other’s opinions in good faith rather than viewing each other as deluded fanatics or dedicated haters.
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boske
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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AXX°N N. wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:30 pm
boske wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:20 pm Definitely. I do not remember all the details now, I do recall listing them in "the thread", but there were plenty of Dougie teases and traps: Dougie staring at the badge, flag, gun, eating cherry pie, coffee, hustling Ike the Spike, you name it. And never did he wake up. The biggest hint that they knew what they were doing is the scene where Dougie sees himself in the mirror. He's wearing the same pyjamas that he was wearing in Ep. 29! That is not random! Recall that scene how he inspects the integrity of it (the mirror). And to top it all, he ultimately wakes up by remembering Gordon Cole, that tells it all.
The teases are irrefutable, but I find it a tad cynical to conflate teases with insults or thinking less of an audience. There was risk involved with delaying so long, and you can say it's trusting the audience to actually take the risk.
Those teases mean nothing to people seeing TP for the very first time. But for fans who had waited 25 years for the show to continue, and may have played a role in getting the project to see the light of day (due to their continued interest), teasing those same folks for 16 parts imploring that they are not patient, could not be farther from the truth. But it is his/their show, so they are free to do as they choose, and for me to see through it.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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boske wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:50 pm Those teases mean nothing to people seeing TP for the very first time. But for fans who had waited 25 years for the show to continue, and may have played a role in getting the project to see the light of day (due to their continued interest), teasing those same folks for 16 parts imploring that they are not patient, could not be farther from the truth. But it is his/their show, so they are free to do as they choose, and for me to see through it.
Well, it means something in terms of pacing and structure. Even those who binged the old material beforehand would detect it's plot momentum being delayed and viewer anticipation being protracted. I don't think the experience, whether original airing watcher or otherwise, was intended to be a negative or nasty one. I can understand if that was anyone's experience, but to say for sure you know Lynch/Frost did so wringing their hands is a bit much.
Last edited by AXX°N N. on Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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Hey there Jonah and thanks for the info about your writing, I wish you the very best. Thanks for the tips about other writers too.

In terms of The Return speaking down to the audience, I have to say that I think you're coming to that assessment very subjectively. Overall, season 3 does have a very rorschach quality to it. This is not uncommon now but I was prescribed anti-depressants at university and the idea of being 'depressed' or agitated has coloured my perspective ever since - even to the extent that I found The Return to be portraying a lot of depression and anxiety. Its a very agitated work and I think that partly comes from Lynch - whilst he may seem like a happy camper, I think he has a lot of turmoil in him. You only need watch The Art Life and he admits he barely goes out - so he has something of the hermit about him. That quality colours The Return majorly, in my view. You could say I am the same and subjectively applying my own view on life to the work.

With regards to Brad, I do apologise for in any way plaguing him when I was part of Bring Back Twin Peaks with my pal Joe from Boston. Those were heady days and a lot of passion was evident. A lot of hard-core fans said they hated the idea of Twin Peaks returning, they didn't want it. All I remember is I did correspond with Brad and posted about his forthcoming book Reflections, which of course I purchased and enjoyed. I can only imagine the work that went into getting in touch with everyone and editing that book. I can't put myself into anyone else's boots but having been known for that to people, I would have steeled myself to say to everyone that I roundly enjoyed The Return. Its an interesting swerve to go from being immersed in that world of fandom to then not really liking what was premiered in 2017. I felt the same when Cameron of Obnoxious and Anonymous roundly dismissed the Secret History book.

Certainly I don't think that The Return was some sort of masterpiece creation - I thought it was really rather odd, wilfully perverse and disturbing in its refusal to offer any real insights into any characters. In terms of viewpoint on such a work, if I'd never been involved online in a fan campaign making Missing Cooper posters I think I would have reacted rather differently to this new season. Becoming so entrenched in the fan world means you lose any sense of surprise and a great deal of intrigue.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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Brad D wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:07 pm I dont want to engage in any more nastiness - but my disappointment was deep and personal. I and many others waited and dreamed of a third season for a very long time, and in many ways it was an interesting Christmas Eve but in the end, you discover Santa is in fact just some guy in a costume. I’m glad many people love it. I wish I did! For the season three folks trying to prove a point, I ask you… is my deep disappointment not enough??!!
I don’t know if you’re addressing me, but I don’t know why anybody would want somebody to be “deeply disappointed” by the show. I wish everyone loved it as much as I did. I enjoy talking about the things that move and interest me, and I find people’s different opinions fascinating. When I respond to a criticism of the show it’s not about trying to convert anyone, but an attempt to explain why my opinion differs. The only thing that bothers me is when I feel people insist that parts of the show are objective flaws, and that the show definitively fails the rules of storytelling or something. LateReg does a really good job diving into how the show differs from conventional narrative storytelling, and I think that people sometimes ignore that when they talk about the show in the same way as a Marvel movie or something.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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Yeah, I don't quite get even the mild aversion to countered opinions. Isn't that the lifeblood of a discussion?

Maybe it's a problem of perception; when I disagree and explain why, like enumbs says, my goal isn't conversion. Often I'm not even steadfast in what I'm saying, but more like teasing out an alternative. I view my posts as dialectical, not argumentative.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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AXX°N N. wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:56 pm I don't think the experience, whether original airing watcher or otherwise, was intended to be a negative or nasty one. I can understand if that was anyone's experience, but to say for sure you know Lynch/Frost did so wringing their hands is a bit much.
I disagree, and we can certainly disagree here, I respect your point of view. I just saw it differently, but saying it is "a bit too much" to me simply reinforces, in a wide stroke, what Brad was just talking about earlier.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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NormoftheAndes wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:56 pm This is not uncommon now but I was prescribed anti-depressants at university and the idea of being 'depressed' or agitated has coloured my perspective ever since - even to the extent that I found The Return to be portraying a lot of depression and anxiety. Its a very agitated work and I think that partly comes from Lynch - whilst he may seem like a happy camper, I think he has a lot of turmoil in him. You only need watch The Art Life and he admits he barely goes out - so he has something of the hermit about him. That quality colours The Return majorly, in my view. You could say I am the same and subjectively applying my own view on life to the work.
Fascinating perspective which totally fits with the way Lynch talks about the “rubber clown suit of negativity” and Judy’s status as “an extreme negative force”. There is a real yearning and sense of absence to season 3, especially considering Cooper’s state and Laura’s disappearance from the red room.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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boske wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:04 pm
AXX°N N. wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:56 pm I don't think the experience, whether original airing watcher or otherwise, was intended to be a negative or nasty one. I can understand if that was anyone's experience, but to say for sure you know Lynch/Frost did so wringing their hands is a bit much.
I disagree, and we can certainly disagree here, I respect your point of view. I just saw it differently, but saying it is "a bit too much" to me simply reinforces, in a wide stroke, what Brad was just talking about earlier.
I think there was nastiness in The Return just left there, hanging. The intention was not to just make the audience freaked out though. I mean, you could argue that Blue Velvet is nastier.

However, having a young lad run over at speed by a truck and for that story to be pretty much given 10 minutes overall, now that's 'nasty' for us the audience. But then Lynch did warn us not to play in the road sometime before the show came out.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

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boske wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:04 pm I disagree, and we can certainly disagree here, I respect your point of view. I just saw it differently, but saying it is "a bit too much" to me simply reinforces, in a wide stroke, what Brad was just talking about earlier.
This actually gets into something I've noticed in these discussions over time. To me there's a difference in approach here:

Part of your viewpoint is supposing the motivations of the creator.
Part of my viewpoint is not (or at least not with certainty).

And I think what I take issue with is not so much the idea that the experience was nasty for you (this is subjective, anyway), but the certainty that you apparently objectively know what Lynch/Frost intended and that it was mean-spirited, negative, and desiring of your hostility. It happens to be the case that those with negative opinions more often engage in that kind of speculation, but I'd take just as much issue with it if someone with a positive take did so. It happens to be, though, that most of the positive (or mixed) analysis on dugpa is less interested with presuming the creator's mindset and instead looks under the hood and approaches the narrative and its effects on a more subjective and technical level.

I just think it's off-base to rope Lynch into negative appraisals and make a character judgment and personal value assessment (or assassination). I don't quite believe in death of the author, it's just I don't think imagined mental interiors is productive and that it lacks substance or evidence value. It always comes across to me as "well, your arguments are fine and you can keep them, it's not my business if you can't see the ultimate truth that Lynch is actually an asshole."
Last edited by AXX°N N. on Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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