2021 Thoughts on Season 3

General discussion on Twin Peaks not related to the series, film, books, music, photos, or collectors merchandise.

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Agent Earle
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

Post by Agent Earle »

Rainwater wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:35 am
Agent Earle wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:50 pm
eyeboogers wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:59 am

It is certainly not my intention to further derail this thread, I think Brad's critique of those that liked the new series completely misses the mark. And I think everyone here is interested in nuanced debate on every incarnation of Twin Peaks. As long as it's not the same 5 board members posting the exact same negative rant in every thread, every day.
... and as long as it's not the same 5 board members gushing over every single aspect of The Return and the Master that Can Do No Wrong in every thread, every day. Goes both ways.
Oh God. I'm sorry for going off topic, but I can't not respond to this. This is the singular thing that's said every now and then on this forum that pisses me off the most out of anything I've ever read here.
Specifically, this:
the Master that Can Do No Wrong
literally what are you talking about?? What do you mean???

What is this strawman of all strawmen? Show me a single person on this forum (real, not a figment of your imagination) who thinks this, or has an attitude of Lynch or his work being in any way perfect or infallible, or thinks TPTR is an absolutely flawless work of art, or anything else implied by the above strawman. Literally show me one. I dare you. I fucking double dare you!

Alright guys, please speak up, all you Lynch fanboys. Let me make a prediction, though, of how an imagined questionnaire might go:
Anyone on this forum who thinks Lynch's work is flawless? [crickets] Anyone think he can "do no wrong"? [crickets] Anyone think he as a person or artist is without fault? [crickets] Anyone here who loves all of his work equally? [crickets] Anyone with a tattoo of his face? No?

Seriously, what? Personally, I love The Return. For all its flaws, which there are plenty of in my view, and I'm happy to acknowledge them, it's still one of my favorite works of art ever. And yet, there are several of Lynch's works I don't care for at all. Most of them, in fact. I bet almost anyone here could say the same, that some of the stuff he's made just doesn't do it for you.
So where's that coming from? Why do I see that kind of strawman from people who didn't like The Return time and time again? What's the problem? Are you just completely unable or unwilling to deal with the fact that a specific work of art you dislike is earnestly and unpretentiously loved by others, so you imagine they're some kind of cultist worshipping at the feet of the artist? Is that it? I don't get it. Please help me understand. What am I missing here?

P.S. I hope you don't take my mildly agitated tone as any kind of personal attack, and furthermore I hope you don't take it as any kind of evidence that your presumed perspective of those deluded Lynch lovers is true - the reason I'm pissed is precisely because of how absurdly far from reality it is.
P.P.S. And please don't tell me it was "banter" or you were just being facetious or whatever. This precise sentiment has been expressed in a very acerbic tone both here on this forum and elsewhere(if not by you specifically, then by others), to the point where I'm sure the people who say that kind of thing really mean something by it, and believe it.
I don't feel the need to justify my general opinion to you, the one I've formed on personal observation. Nor do I feel an obligation to conduct a scientific survey and enlighten you with its results. If you haven't come to the same - or at least similar - impression like I did, based on the years-long experience witnessing various fan debates and discussions about Lynch and his work, I certainly am not gonna change your mind with whatever I say in this regard. My only advice to you would be to read through some of the boards on this forum with post-S3 posts and try to look at the material without bias. I do find it interesting that you only have problem with my - admittedly emotionally stated - post, calling it without basis in reality, acerbic, and whatnot, and at the same time not with another post claiming that the only anti-S3 content being posted in here is just "the same negative rant over and over again" - based on this, I'd say your judgement is clouded, to say the least, and you're not even aware of it.
Last edited by Agent Earle on Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

Post by AXX°N N. »

A wise man once said our descriptions of others are often actually descriptions of ourselves. No, I'm not exempt. ;)
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Rainwater
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

Post by Rainwater »

Agent Earle wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:23 pm
I don't feel the need to justify my general opinion to you, the one I've formed on personal observation. Nor do I feel an obligation to conduct a scientific survey and enlighten you with its results. If you haven't come to the same - or at least similar - impression like I did, based on the years-long experience witnessing various fan debates and discussions about Lynch and his work, I certainly am not gonna change your mind with whatever I say in this regard. My only advice to you would be to read through some of the boards on this forum with post-S3 posts and try to look at the material without bias. I do find it interesting that you only have problem with my - admittedly emotionally stated - post, calling it without basis in reality, acerbic, and whatnot, and at the same time not with another post claiming that the only anti-S3 content being posted in here is just "the same negative rant over and over again" - based on this, I'd say your judgement is clouded, to say the least, and you're not even aware of it.
Well, that's a shame. I was hoping you'd at least attempt to respond to what I actually said.

I've read plenty of fan discussions. My judgement is clouded? Alright, dude. Well, nevertheless, in my clouded state of mind I just can't for the life of me see any equivalence between the following:

A) fans gushing over a work they like (on a forum essentially designed for this very purpose, imagine that!), and often skipping over any negative criticism of it and only ever showering it with praise, because that's what people commonly do with things they like. There are also often somewhat pretentious attitudes of "you don't get it and that's why you don't appreciate what I appreciate" and so on. All a natural consequence of really liking something and feeling a connection to it, which makes people respond emotionally to criticism, because people identify with the work and therefore criticism begins to feel like a personal attack. Because y'know, that's what art does to people. Is that annoying if you see things differently? Sure.

and

B) people who dislike a thing (and in this case, maybe also feel emotionally betrayed by it or whatever) accusing those that do like it (and maybe sometimes gush over it to the point where it seems over exaggerated) of essentially being cultists. Mistaking expressions of love for a particular work, and probably general admiration of the artist who made it, as some kind of blindly uncritical worship that refuses to see any fault and doesn't accept any criticism because in their mind God himself made it.

The latter is an utterly ridiculous straw man (with, yeah, no basis in reality), as I already pointed out, and outlined the reasons why, and it's untrue on every level and pretty insulting. The simplest evidence for why it's untrue, as I said before, is that if you ask the people the accusation is directed towards, they'd probably say they don't even like a bunch of things Lynch has made. So obviously, they can't have an attitude towards him as "the Master That Can Do No Wrong". It's just a surface level insult that doesn't reflect the opinions of the people it's directed at on any level.

I'm sure there's plenty of straw men being constructed, arguments misrepresented and unfairly dismissed and so on from both "sides". At any rate, I'm not arguing on behalf of anyone else and am not interested in trying. I'm talking about this very specific thing you said and wondering what the hell you could mean by it exactly.

So I can't help but interpret this kind of thing as a refusal to deal with the fact that People Like Things You Don't Like, and it's really unnecessary to assert this must be because they're uncritical sheep, or to bring up Emperor's New Clothes, or insist that people are only pretending to like something. Really unnecessary. (Maybe you haven't said these other things - but other users on this forum have, and I feel like they're relevant because I see them as belonging to the same category. So I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I also did not call your post acerbic - read more carefully)
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hopesfall
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

Post by hopesfall »

I'm fresh from a re-watch of The Return, and whilst I enjoyed it much more this time around, it did re-open a few wounds; particularly in relation to the Audrey "storyline", the mere morsels we're given of the town we all love, and also how ineffective BOB is. There is a lot more, but I don't want this to turn into some huge cathartic rant, I did enough of that the first time around. Having said that, Parts 17 & 18 had me completely gripped, and I think I actually enjoy how it ends now. It makes some strange kind of sense when you just let it wash over you.

All in all, I see The Return like a live album in a band's discography. Some of the highlights are there, whilst a couple of the favourites are left out. Some tracks have sections that are improvised all of a sudden which is different and perhaps a little off-putting, but fine. At the end of the day, it isn't a replacement, and if I want to hear the originals I can just go back and enjoy them anytime.
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NormoftheAndes
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

Post by NormoftheAndes »

I accidentally skipped over the Freddie vs. BOB meteorite :shock: scene in part 17 watching on blu-ray and was surprised just how dark and unsettling everything else in that episode is!
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mtwentz
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

Post by mtwentz »

hopesfall wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:57 pm I'm fresh from a re-watch of The Return, and whilst I enjoyed it much more this time around, it did re-open a few wounds; particularly in relation to the Audrey "storyline", the mere morsels we're given of the town we all love, and also how ineffective BOB is. There is a lot more, but I don't want this to turn into some huge cathartic rant, I did enough of that the first time around. Having said that, Parts 17 & 18 had me completely gripped, and I think I actually enjoy how it ends now. It makes some strange kind of sense when you just let it wash over you.

All in all, I see The Return like a live album in a band's discography. Some of the highlights are there, whilst a couple of the favourites are left out. Some tracks have sections that are improvised all of a sudden which is different and perhaps a little off-putting, but fine. At the end of the day, it isn't a replacement, and if I want to hear the originals I can just go back and enjoy them anytime.
I have to disagree on Audrey. The very first scene between her and Charlie was very frustrating on the first watch. But on rewatches, I just love those scenes more and more. I think Clark Middleton kills it with Sherilyn. And it leads to a satisfying albeit mysterious conclusion.
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hopesfall
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Re: 2021 Thoughts on Season 3

Post by hopesfall »

mtwentz wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:24 pm
hopesfall wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:57 pm I'm fresh from a re-watch of The Return, and whilst I enjoyed it much more this time around, it did re-open a few wounds; particularly in relation to the Audrey "storyline", the mere morsels we're given of the town we all love, and also how ineffective BOB is. There is a lot more, but I don't want this to turn into some huge cathartic rant, I did enough of that the first time around. Having said that, Parts 17 & 18 had me completely gripped, and I think I actually enjoy how it ends now. It makes some strange kind of sense when you just let it wash over you.

All in all, I see The Return like a live album in a band's discography. Some of the highlights are there, whilst a couple of the favourites are left out. Some tracks have sections that are improvised all of a sudden which is different and perhaps a little off-putting, but fine. At the end of the day, it isn't a replacement, and if I want to hear the originals I can just go back and enjoy them anytime.
I have to disagree on Audrey. The very first scene between her and Charlie was very frustrating on the first watch. But on rewatches, I just love those scenes more and more. I think Clark Middleton kills it with Sherilyn. And it leads to a satisfying albeit mysterious conclusion.
I certainly warmed to it more during the rewatch; it frustrated me no-end when I first saw it. Although I loved her "awakening" and still do. I just thought the dialogue with her and Charlie left me wanting. I get a feeling it is something that I will find more endearing over time, not unlike the James & Evelyn sub-plot in the original run (please don't ban me admin!)

There's certainly fertile ground there for it to grow on me; the entire Season has in many ways, I just need more time to digest it all I guess, and make those pieces all find their place in the bigger picture. At least in my head! I'm not one to write stuff off indefinitely.
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