What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Agent Earle
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

Post by Agent Earle »

Mr. Strawberry wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 9:20 am Guess I can't get over how much precious time and effort was wasted on things like bad musical performances that had nothing to do with the show, and random characters that were not interesting and had no bearing on anything meaningful. It was very difficult to see the main characters reduced to cameos peppered throughout the story as well.
This is why S3 feels to me like Lynch (and Frost, I guess) stopped caring about TP proper (and, please, forgive my entitlement when addressing the topic of what is TP proper, I mean, who am I? A lowly fan from back in the day ...). He populated it with random characters and random events that have absolutely no bearing on what it passed for TP for some 25 years. On the other hand, characters and things that are (were) quintessential TP got the short shrift. It was like he (they) said, "Ah, dang it, who cares about TP, we'll just hang whatever suits us at the moment on it." FWWM, on the other hand, is completely different story - Lynch evidently (still) strongly cared about the universe he created with the TV series and wanted to emphasize and expand it (not just build something new on its ashes). Everything about FWWM just screams TP, and this - somewhat paradoxically - despite being practically devoid of its central, most beloved character!
Sorry for this old ramble, I realize it's been heard a hundred times before. (Now you're probably ask me what the hell am I still doing here, and I have no meaningful answer to give you.)
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Jonah
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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I agree with a lot of the disappointed feelings about The Return and share some of them even though I accept it as its own thing (for the most part - I tried to put aside my disappointed feelings and initial yearning for a more traditional revival early on and watch it for what it was)

I always felt like Lynch really honoured deceased actors in the story really well and I admire him for that, but I felt Lynch and Frost in general seemed to either dislike or just not really care about the other characters, despite Frost writing the books, and Lynch giving characters like Big Ed and Norma happy endings, it still felt like they didn't really care about the original characters, at least not in terms of actually following their stories in the show itself. (I know Frost put time into writing books about them to fill in the blanks, but he still didn't seem all that interested in using them in the actual show.) That for me was the most disappointing aspect of The Return - that and those new sequences of random characters talking in the roadhouse, I really disliked those. Everything else I'm mostly fine with.

All Frost's talk about wanting to move the show out of the town, to a bigger canvas, is surprising to me, as if they'd been forced to write a 10 season show set there, not revive a 25-year old show that only ran for a year back then - my interest in the show was exactly because I wanted to visit that sleepy, strange little town. Also, both Lynch and Frost wandered away from the show way back in Season 2, leaving it in other's hands, so this disinterest or whatever you term it, wavering interest, was present way back then, and I still could sense some of it when they revived the show, which is just very odd to me. A disinterest in the town itself and the old characters anyway. Yet despite this Lynch still really deeply cared about parts of the universe. I just always felt it an odd balance.

Earle, if you're a fan of the original series, that's enough reason to be here - no one has to like The Return or even FWWM, or even all of the original series. It's enough to like some of it.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
Mr. Strawberry
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

Post by Mr. Strawberry »

I disagree because they must have cared about Twin Peaks a great deal to have gone to the trouble to make another installment. It was a huge effort, and years of work.

It's as though, artistically speaking, we were seeking something very specific and particular at one point in our lives, then stumbled across Twin Peaks and found that certain thing in it, which was a major occasion to rejoice. So coming into Season 3 with a ready embrace for those same old sensations, and of course a dark extension of them considering how things ended 25 years prior, it was a shock to find something else entirely.

It was essentially the dark extension on its own: an awesome, contemplative, mesmerizing and confusingly nightmarish masterwork from Lynch and Frost. Also, a stab to the heart when you're looking forward to catching up with your favorite characters after all these years but when you arrive they're all busy at work and you only see them for 5 minutes.
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TwinsPeak
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

Post by TwinsPeak »

I'm not sure if this an unpopular or popular opinion

I'm a big fan of season 3. However, my least favorite thing about season 3 isn't the green glove, isn't the roadhouse, isn't the evolution of the arm. It's there's too many characters and most have no depth. In the original you really felt like you knew everyone and they all had backstories. In season 3 I don't even know most of their names. They aren't worth remembering. I would have preferred they stayed in Twin Peaks more not always and focused more on the already established characters...Some new characters but not nearly as many. There's no denying you got to know the characters better in the original.

Once again still a big fan of season 3, it's not season 3's fault that the original and FWWM are so good. But I would have enjoyed the Return even more had it had less characters and more depth to them.
"Wanting something to be different will not make it so." "Explaining a different rule is not complaining for months. A lie will never be true." - Dale Cooper: My Life, My Tapes.
LateReg
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

Post by LateReg »

Not long ago I remarked to Mr. Reindeer that, as the board was in an extreme state of stasis, it seemed like we were all just stuck in one place, repeating ourselves over and over, caught in a loop, having the same conversations. A new board member would arrive saying the same negative stuff we had already heard long before they arrived, and then another new board member would arrive saying the same sort of positive stuff we already heard. It was just something I noticed. Sometimes I might see something and just nod my head in agreement or disagreement, or ponder the reasoning. Other times something very specific is brought up that I feel like responding to just because it's something that ties directly my foundational understanding of the series. I'm saying all this because I know that I'm bound to say the same sort of stuff over and over again, so apologies in advance for any regurgitations!

@Earle, I'm just curious, did none of the new series feel at all like the original to you? I'm perfectly fine with the notion that The Return felt completely different as many have said, but I also know some people who have said that certain parts felt very much like Twin Peaks to them. Other than scenes of fog rolling down mountains scored to certain themes, I'm personally thinking, in particular, of the scenes set in the Sheriff's Station. Granted, there's something a bit off especially due to the lack of music, but I've always felt -- and Lynch has said as much -- that the overall cinematic look of the Sheriff's Station was meant to resemble the original series. I'm just curious if there were any moments where you felt The Return did actually resemble the original series.

One thing I simply don't understand is the resistance to the musical acts. I think they're all very good, but I especially enjoy them for the way they alter or enhance the mood of the episode, coupled with how they reflect the themes or plot developments. The musical numbers take on new dimensions with the entirety of the story in mind, and that's not even getting into their potential relationship to Audrey or as a shared dream space, as many have speculated. And even if you don't buy any of that, the musical elements usually take place over the credits, which means that almost no time was wasted at all; even so, credits are meant for reflection, which ties into the idea that the music itself has importance and is meant to be similarly reflected upon. Likewise, I can't think of many characters that were either uninteresting or had no bearing on anything meaningful, as far as my understanding goes of The Return--the vast tapestry of side characters and the sometimes lacking utilization of major characters all fit the central ideas of the mood-and-theme-based, 25-years-later-eavesdropped, world-expanding whole, which is not interested in obeying the normal rules of narrative, character-building, etc. Similar to the musical numbers, most of the minor characters offer shading and reflections, IMO, while also giving the illusion of a world that exists beyond the screen. (I love The Wicker Man, by the way, and the music is both great and expertly integrated into the whole to the point that it's practically a horror musical. But that's a whole different, one-of-a-kind beast, and Lynch attempted something else entirely with his use of music in The Return.)

Now, I don't think The Return is perfect, but I admire and find poignant almost all of its imperfections. The Audrey/Charlie stuff is surely and deliberately overlong and frustrating--like much of The Return, it makes you feel what it's getting at, first and foremost and at the risk of everything else. But Ben's monologue about that bike, to me, is something so integral to the series and the way it works that I would never dream of cutting it down. It's just such a beautifully reflective scene that speaks to themes of fatherhood, time, memory, etc. In that scene and throughout The Return, duration and the accompanying silence speaks the highest level of truth to me.

And lastly, perhaps to tie this into the unpopular opinion thread but also perhaps not, I think that pound for pound the Roadhouse Randos conversation sequences are easily some of the best scenes in The Return--lean, enigmatic, and deceptively purposeful. Any time I'm feeling a little down about an episode, or worn out or confused by The Return, such as in episodes 9, 12 or 14, the Roadhouse Randos come into my life and the audacious brilliance of the series is restored and the confusion comes full circle to somehow make sense. That a musical number always follows to enhance or alter the mood is a large part of that feeling.

Also, great last post Mr. Strawberry. That's extremely well-put.
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TwinsPeak
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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@latereg quote: Likewise, I can't think of many characters that were either uninteresting or had no bearing on anything meaningful, as far as my understanding goes of The Return--the vast tapestry of side characters and the sometimes lacking utilization of major characters all fit the central ideas of the mood-and-theme-based, 25-years-later-eavesdropped, world-expanding whole, which is not interested in obeying the normal rules of narrative, character-building, etc. Similar to the musical numbers, most of the minor characters offer shading and reflections, IMO, while also giving the illusion of a world that exists beyond the screen.



Yeah I didn't enjoy that. I didn't like " the sometimes lacking utilization of major characters all fit the central ideas of the mood-and-theme-based" I preferred how the original and most other movies and shows build characters. And when you say "while also giving the illusion of a world that exists beyond the screen." I don't enjoy the meta aspects. I don't want to see actors trying to act cause its considered meta. I would have preferred to not go meta. Instead of trying to find the meta I prefer to not go there and prefer to believe Laura Palmer is real and not Sheryl Lee playing Laura at least while watching. Just like I would prefer to not recognize an MMA fighter actor in Twin Peaks. Its' impossible to avoid but it just throws me off like meta.
"Wanting something to be different will not make it so." "Explaining a different rule is not complaining for months. A lie will never be true." - Dale Cooper: My Life, My Tapes.
LateReg
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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TwinsPeak wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 2:10 pm And when you say "while also giving the illusion of a world that exists beyond the screen." I don't enjoy the meta aspects. I don't want to see actors trying to act cause its considered meta. I would have preferred to not go meta. Instead of trying to find the meta I prefer to not go there and prefer to believe Laura Palmer is real and not Sheryl Lee playing Laura at least while watching. Just like I would prefer to not recognize an MMA fighter actor in Twin Peaks. Its' impossible to avoid but it just throws me off like meta.
I understand, but for what it's worth, while the real world appears to be a huge factor and layer in The Return, what I was referring to there by saying "the illusion of a world that exists beyond the screen" was mostly the illusion of more stories taking place offscreen within the fictional world of Twin Peaks. Not a meta-thing in that case, but more actual stories and characters with full-fledged lives that continue after the scene ends. The Roadhouse Randos, Chip and Harvey, the guy who donates blood, etc. form the illusion of a fully populated world that goes far beyond the script and spills outward off the screen. That's what I was trying to say there.
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underthefan
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

Post by underthefan »

Beautifully put, Mr. Strawberry and LateReg. And to all those who love The Return, even if we're the minority on this board, happy 4 year anniversary since the original airing!
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Jonah
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

Post by Jonah »

I think most people on here love The Return or at least like it, the minority are those who dislike it or have mixed feelings on it - or am I reading the room wrong?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
LateReg
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 3:39 pm I think most people on here love The Return or at least like it, the minority are those who dislike it or have mixed feelings on it - or am I reading the room wrong?
No, I think you are correct. It's just hard to keep track of who's actually on the board at this point. :D
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Brad D
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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My primary issue with The Return (among many) was the legion of tertiary characters that pop in for a scene or two and disappear. Many of them were intriguing at first sight, but there turned out to be no arc, no journey, no nothing. Same with the glass box and Hastings. I have no issue with all the action lingering on out of town, but there was just no story to invest in for me. Mr. C was by far my favorite part of the show, and even he wasn’t honored with an end game.

Part 17 did me in, and I don’t think I was ready to consume pt 18 properly with that horrid taste in my mouth. Maybe, maybe it’s time to give that last part a separate chance... but then again I’m not sure I wish to see Coop and Diane do it again. There’s my unpopular opinion... lol
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enumbs
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Brad D wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 5:38 pm Part 17 did me in, and I don’t think I was ready to consume pt 18 properly with that horrid taste in my mouth. Maybe, maybe it’s time to give that last part a separate chance... but then again I’m not sure I wish to see Coop and Diane do it again. There’s my unpopular opinion... lol
I’ve never understood the criticism of that sex scene. People imply that the fact it feels wrong and disturbing is inherently a bad thing, even though that off-putting quality is entirely in keeping with Part 18 and Cooper’s trajectory in the season as a whole. Even the music cue, harking back to the woodsmen, makes this clear. The scene is about denial, about trauma, about the dark side of Cooper, and is therefore integral in fulfilling the promise of the season 2 finale and Fire Walk With Me.
Last edited by enumbs on Sat May 22, 2021 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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enumbs
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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I’m sure this isn’t the case with you Brad, but I remember people around the time of broadcast talking about the scene as though it was a conventional love scene, and that it’s disturbing quality was the inadvertent result of the mismatched pairing and Lynch’s bad direction. The show really is a Rorschach test as times!
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Jasper
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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enumbs wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:26 am I remember people around the time of broadcast talking about the scene as though it was a conventional love scene, and that it’s disturbing quality was the inadvertent result of the mismatched pairing and Lynch’s bad direction.
OK, now that interpretation is just objectively wrong. :lol:

As far as anyone feeling like they never, ever needed to see Cooper this way, I completely and totally understand. The scene is very disturbing. It's interesting how it can be contrasted with the "Dougie" and Janey-E sex scene, especially considering that both men are actually Cooper and that Diane and Janey-E are sisters!
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

Post by Stavrogyn »

underthefan wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 3:23 pm Beautifully put, Mr. Strawberry and LateReg. And to all those who love The Return, even if we're the minority on this board, happy 4 year anniversary since the original airing!
Happy 4 year anniversary to you too! I had completely forgotten about it, but I did rewatch Inland Empire yesterday evening, for the first time since 2009, so I did celebrate the occasion in a way, at least unintentionally.

LateReg, I have to say that you often express feelings and opinions about The Return similar to my own, but you are able to put it into words more efficiently, and therefore your posts, like the one up above, actually help me to better understand what I admire about The Return, like the elliptical storylines, and the "world that exists beyond the screen".
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