What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Stavrogyn
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

Post by Stavrogyn »

LateReg wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:55 pm Episode 16 must be one of the most divisive episodes, for sure, which I was never aware of until joining Dugpa.
Interesting, neither was I. It would easily make my top 10 list, even if I took into consideration The Return. On my first viewing, in 2010, I thought it was great and found no faults with it. However, many years later, on my second viewing, I did have same issues with it - like the already mentioned angles and its sort of campy pretentiousness at moments - but I still loved it. Leland's final scene / death is one of the best moments of whole Twin Peaks, in my opinion.

(By the way, this enumeration always confused me. I always thought of the pilot as episode 1, so to me this would be episode 17 :P)
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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There was a book about Twin Peaks released shortly after Ep. 16 aired- within a few months at least, but before the series ended- that stated the show began its dive with episode 16. Wish I still had a copy. I don't remember the name and I think it's probably been long out of print.
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Jonah
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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15 and 16 are both mixed episodes especially after 14 but they're a lot better than 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and probably 23 (though I have a bit of a soft spot for that episode). They might be better than 24 and 26 too. Definitely better than 28, Maybe on par with 27 (aside from its great closing scenes) or 25 (aside from the diner scene)? Anyway, if people had a big problem with 16, what did they think of 17, 18, 19, 20 and beyond?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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mtwentz
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:40 am 15 and 16 are both mixed episodes especially after 14 but they're a lot better than 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and probably 23 (though I have a bit of a soft spot for that episode). They might be better than 24 and 26 too. Definitely better than 28, Maybe on par with 27 (aside from its great closing scenes) or 25 (aside from the diner scene)? Anyway, if people had a big problem with 16, what did they think of 17, 18, 19, 20 and beyond?
But episode 15 has that Ben and Jerry scene in the jail reminiscing. One of my favorite scenes of the 2nd season! A Lynchian moment by a non-Lynch director...
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Jonah
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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I love 15 and it's one of the few episodes I remember from seeing it back in the day as a kid so I have a special soft spot for it, but I just meant next to 14, it's a bit of a step down, as is 16 - but I still think they're both vastly better than the episodes that would come. 17 is a massive step down and 19 is probably the nadir before it begins to climb back up in 23/24. (I also enjoy some of Diane Keaton's episode too, though.)
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:40 am 15 and 16 are both mixed episodes especially after 14 but they're a lot better than 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and probably 23 (though I have a bit of a soft spot for that episode). They might be better than 24 and 26 too. Definitely better than 28, Maybe on par with 27 (aside from its great closing scenes) or 25 (aside from the diner scene)? Anyway, if people had a big problem with 16, what did they think of 17, 18, 19, 20 and beyond?
I think the difference is that if you don’t like episodes 15 and 16 then they tarnish the Laura Palmer mystery and therefore what many regard as the heart of the series. As shoddy as many of the subsequent episodes are, it’s easier to view them as an irrelevant blip.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Yeah, that's true enough - I can see that. I view 14 as the finale to that mystery, not 16. 15 and 16 are just the coda, the wrap-up. The real ending essentially comes with 14. I do like 15 and 16 but I recognise they're a big jump down from 14.

I think while Leland is probably a bit too OTT in 15 it might have been fun to see him as Bob a bit longer, and as I've said numerous times before, I was all for a Bob-hopping-into-different hosts for the rest of the season storyline, along with the Earle stuff, but alas we didn't get it. Maybe it would have all been so OTT having Leland and others running around grinning into mirrors while Earle donned all his silly costumes that the TP universe would have imploded in on itself - though that might have worked too.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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AXX°N N. wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:09 am
LateReg wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:55 pm It's the only episode I can think of that is as likely to finish high in someone's top ten episodes as it is for someone to call it one of their least favorites due to certain narrative decisions, pacing, etc.
True that. Me and my viewing partner both disliked it on our first watch together. But then on a rewatch before the Return we both appreciated it much more. It can be divisive even to individuals!
Opposite here! Really liked it first time (mood of the Roadhouse scene, etc.), have disliked it more each time until I now really actively dislike it.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:40 am 15 and 16 are both mixed episodes especially after 14 but they're a lot better than 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and probably 23 (though I have a bit of a soft spot for that episode). They might be better than 24 and 26 too. Definitely better than 28, Maybe on par with 27 (aside from its great closing scenes) or 25 (aside from the diner scene)? Anyway, if people had a big problem with 16, what did they think of 17, 18, 19, 20 and beyond?
I see what you're getting at there and I can also see enumbs suggestion on how it might work for some people. For the record, I like 15 and 16 and probably believe that they are better than 17 thru, well, 28, probably. That said...I've mentioned this before, but the only episodes I'd qualify as truly bad are 20 - 22 (I know that 22 has its fans because it at least attempts to engage with style, but on recent viewings I've not cared for it). I agree that 23 has a little something to it--for me it has a wonderful sort of spark or lightness that signals the series is busting out of its slump.

Similar to the current conversation, I will also risk ridicule and admit that I had never realized how poorly some fans felt about episode 17 until a few years ago. In and of itself, I think it's a perfectly fine comedown of an episode. Obviously, I never thought it was up to par with what came before it, but I enjoyed the atmosphere of the town returning to "normal." Hell, I even enjoy the funeral gathering! But, similar to what enumbs has said about 15/16, it was at some point brought to my attention that 17 may just well be one of the worst episodes when thought of in context of the series up to that point--just as that funeral gathering might be thought of as one of the most misguided moments in the entire series. That type of easy-going denouement to such a horrific tale of incest just three days after such shocking revelations would NEVER happen on even the worst drama in today's television landscape. But therein lies the key to why I don't think I've ever really had much of a problem with the episode. Because while the storyline and the potential to delve deeper into the town's grief is horrendously bungled, I guess I kind of just looked at it from the perspective of TV at the time, how it operated and how Twin Peaks was still in some sort of uncharted longform territory and had to move forward without its guiding force--and I'm not talking about Lynch, but rather about the mystery surrounding Laura. I guess I sort of just accepted it all as perfectly normal, in other words, and it was only in the past five years that I began to think of it from a more modern vantage point.

I'm sure that plenty of you thought poorly of it from the first time you saw episode 17, but I'm specifically curious about those who remained on board with the series back in 1991 all the way through episode 16. I wonder how many who were still on board immediately found great fault with episode 17 back in 1991? I'd also be curious how people might have felt about episode 17 who had grown weary of the supernatural reveals of 14 - 16 and might have viewed episode 17 as a reset. Have the advancements in TV throughout the years altered the way we look back at Twin Peaks, and made us any more or less forgiving?
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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When I watched the series for the first time, my main problem with episode 17 was that it felt like the story was over, and I couldn't see where could it go from there, nor why would it continue. It felt unnecessary.

I actually think if Twin Peaks had ended with episode 16, it would have been considered as one of the greatest series of all time even more than it is today. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't 16 end with that shot that I interpret as from the perspective of BOB / his spirit roaming through the woods in search of a new host? That would have been a brilliant ending.

On my second viewing, however - having known what comes after - I enjoyed the rest of the original series much more, including episode 17.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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LateReg wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:08 pm
I'm sure that plenty of you thought poorly of it from the first time you saw episode 17, but I'm specifically curious about those who remained on board with the series back in 1991 all the way through episode 16. I wonder how many who were still on board immediately found great fault with episode 17 back in 1991? I'd also be curious how people might have felt about episode 17 who had grown weary of the supernatural reveals of 14 - 16 and might have viewed episode 17 as a reset. Have the advancements in TV throughout the years altered the way we look back at Twin Peaks, and made us any more or less forgiving?
I never had any problems with 17, not then, not now. The post-funeral party seemed like an adequate send-off to give to the Palmers arc. Cooper's farewell to Audrey wrapped up the (thankfully) never realized romance between them in a sweet and credible way - it feels very organic, like it was meant to be from the very beginning and not something written on the spot when the decision to not go ahead with their flirting became final. Cooper being thrown out of FBI on the eve of his leaving the town and the reappearance of Jean Renault raised the bar of intrigue for me. The episode's ending especially is one of the greatest endings in the history of TP episodes and promised great things in the future. That never really came to fruition, but even today, I still get the goosebumps when I watch that scene of Briggs disappearing before Cooper, and that mysterious silhouette that appears on the ridge against the flash of blinding light. Back then, I though the silhouette represented Bob. I eventually thought the better of it, but to this day, I have no idea who or what that figure is supposed to be (maybe the writers never knew themselves).
All in all, I thought/think that was the episode when Twin Peaks spread its wings beyond the Laura Palmer story, and I was super game for more. It's the next episode that sorta feels like a letdown to me (a letdown that lasted only until E20 for me, when the Dead Dog Farm stuff and the entrance of Windom Earle - via the vagrant's body he leaves at the sheriff's office - give the series a strong shot of adrenalin that, sans a plethora of overy comical and even ridiculous shenanigans, sees it all the way through).
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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LateReg wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:08 pm
Jonah wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:40 am 15 and 16 are both mixed episodes especially after 14 but they're a lot better than 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and probably 23 (though I have a bit of a soft spot for that episode). They might be better than 24 and 26 too. Definitely better than 28, Maybe on par with 27 (aside from its great closing scenes) or 25 (aside from the diner scene)? Anyway, if people had a big problem with 16, what did they think of 17, 18, 19, 20 and beyond?
I'm sure that plenty of you thought poorly of it from the first time you saw episode 17, but I'm specifically curious about those who remained on board with the series back in 1991 all the way through episode 16. I wonder how many who were still on board immediately found great fault with episode 17 back in 1991? I'd also be curious how people might have felt about episode 17 who had grown weary of the supernatural reveals of 14 - 16 and might have viewed episode 17 as a reset. Have the advancements in TV throughout the years altered the way we look back at Twin Peaks, and made us any more or less forgiving?
I remember really liking Ep. 17, 18, 19, and 20. Re-watching all of them several times. After the intensity of the Laura Palmer wrap up, it was good to have 'lighter' episodes. But particularly about 17, I really liked Cooper's farewell at the Sherriff's station, and then the sudden announcement of his investigation for drugs. and then of course, the episode leaves off with what would become the main focus of Twin Peaks from there on, the Lodges.

In my opinion, things didn't really start to fall apart until Windom Earle became the focus. I thought that transition from Jean Renault to Earle was poorly managed. Earle came off as a goofball, there was no real dramatic tension to some guy hanging out in the woods, plotting a chess move, with a slave to help him.

Thankfully, the last 4 or 5 episodes left the show going out on a high note.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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mtwentz wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:24 pm
I remember really liking Ep. 17, 18, 19, and 20. Re-watching all of them several times. After the intensity of the Laura Palmer wrap up, it was good to have 'lighter' episodes. But particularly about 17, I really liked Cooper's farewell at the Sherriff's station, and then the sudden announcement of his investigation for drugs. and then of course, the episode leaves off with what would become the main focus of Twin Peaks from there on, the Lodges.

In my opinion, things didn't really start to fall apart until Windom Earle became the focus. I thought that transition from Jean Renault to Earle was poorly managed. Earle came off as a goofball, there was no real dramatic tension to some guy hanging out in the woods, plotting a chess move, with a slave to help him.

Thankfully, the last 4 or 5 episodes left the show going out on a high note.
I can't see how anyone would prefer episodes 18-20 over 21-25, what with the excess of goofiness and a general sense of aimlessness (that's somewhat eased only by Jean Renault arc, which is great) about them. Eps 21-25 (and really also the last third of E20, which is Twin Peaks at its all-time high), on the other hand, is where the stakes are starting to get high with the arrival of Cooper's archnemesis opening up as-of-then unknown aspects of the hero's past that would eventually contribute to his fateful failure. Plus there's the excellent Josie/Eckhardt subplot and the most welcome reappearance of Bob during those eps, indicating he's still very much a force to be reckoned with. But to each their own.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Agent Earle wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:10 am
mtwentz wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:24 pm
In my opinion, things didn't really start to fall apart until Windom Earle became the focus. I thought that transition from Jean Renault to Earle was poorly managed. Earle came off as a goofball, there was no real dramatic tension to some guy hanging out in the woods, plotting a chess move, with a slave to help him.

Thankfully, the last 4 or 5 episodes left the show going out on a high note.
I can't see how anyone would prefer episodes 18-20 over 21-25, what with the excess of goofiness and a general sense of aimlessness (that's somewhat eased only by Jean Renault arc, which is great) about them. Eps 21-25 (and really also the last third of E20, which is Twin Peaks at its all-time high), on the other hand, is where the stakes are starting to get high with the arrival of Cooper's archnemesis opening up as-of-then unknown aspects of the hero's past that would eventually contribute to his fateful failure. Plus there's the excellent Josie/Eckhardt subplot and the most welcome reappearance of Bob during those eps, indicating he's still very much a force to be reckoned with. But to each their own.
The only tension I felt in the beginning of the Earle storyline was regarding Leo. I thought Earle was going to off him right away. After he didn't, it became apparent that Earle was only going to kill minor characters brought in for one episode just to be killed by Earle. The stalking of Donna, Audrey and Shelly didn't feel tense to me; it all felt like an empty threat. So for me, Earle storyline initially provided very little dramatic tension.

Once he went into Owl Cave and it became clear Earle was seeking access to the Lodge, not just a vendetta against Cooper, everything changed. He then, overnight became a compelling character and the tension ratcheted up.

As for that Josie episode with Bob and LMFAP- I really hated that episode at the time, because of the way it ended. It just went too over the edge. In retrospect, it is actually a very good episode, but Lynch should have been brought in to direct the Josie death scene. That scene almost killed the show before the season could end.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Agent Earle wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:10 am (and really also the last third of E20, which is Twin Peaks at its all-time high)
Definitely unpopular! But I do really dig the Jean resolution, even though aspects of it come off as goofy as other shenanigans in the preceding stretch.
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