What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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JackwithOneEye wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:00 pm I liked the Windom & Leo cabin stuff. Leo was such a big bad in S1, to have him neutered in s2 by a bigger big bad was a fun idea.

the aspect of Windom I cared for least was some of the disguise stuff I found a bit like bad TV.
Well said, I liked that too - how the big bad became the mini or assistant big bad. Similar thing happened in The Return arguably with Bob and Judy.

The disguises were awful and truly take you out of the show. I get the Batman villian fun but they don't really work - and I wonder were these disguises also Lynch/Frost ideas? I know Lynch rightly preferred him in the black suit - but surely they must have approved those disguises?

The one scene that Windom is really creepy in other than the white face in the cabin was when he visited Donna's house. That disguise was more passable and more subtle - but even then I think the scene would have played much stronger without it.

But seeing him dressed up in the diner next to Coop and all those other disguies - ugh. I suppose the professor one also wasn't too bad. I'm mixed on the Log Lady one - it's bad, but in a similar way to the horse costume, it's so ludicrous and the strobes make it sort of creepy that it almost works. The rest, though - no.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:59 pm I will say some of the stuff in The Return surprised me given how silly it was considering Lynch didn't like Season 2 and as you point out those ideas too. A lot of the stuff in The Return was questionable yet fans seem to really like that stuff because Lynch was involved, but a lot of it was just as bad as anything in mid-Season 2, which really was surprising to me. Especially how broad he went with Andy/Lucy and some other stuff. We tend to think of the slump as occurring because Lynch stepped away but how many of those silly storylines and ideas did he and Frost actually approve? We know he dictated the Josie in a drawer pull thing, which I love but many seem to find really bad. So it's quite possibly a lot of the bad stuff in Season 2 were Lynch/Frost ideas or approved by them, and this is apparent given some of the stuff in the revival or even On the Air which was very broad too (and mostly unfunny in my opinion). I do think there is a tendency to laude anything Lynch does TP-wise and denigrate anything he wasn't directly involved in, which is understanable as the 6 episodes of the original series that he directed are the best (in my and most opinions) but it doesn't mean he's infallible, and he and Frost both do have the tendency to include some silly and unfunny stuff. I haven't read Frost's books yet and as I learn more about them and the ideas in them, I'm increasingly less interested in them. So let's be honest - as much as we love them, they're definitely not infallible. And yes, Lynch might have made the Josie in the drawer pull scene better (it's probably the case that directors and writers taking his ideas implemented them in a weaker way), but I do wonder sometimes if that exact scene, even presented as it was, had been directed by Lynch would fans love it? Probably. What if we found out some of the most hated stuff was secretly directed by Lynch? Would the same fans then turn around and say they now loved all that stuff? I expect many would.

The creamed corn planet doesn't sound any more outlandish than any of the stuff we saw in Part 8 or the golden orb stuff - in fact, it fits in with it imo. It's the same kind of cosmic backstory. I would have taken some of those ideas over some of the stuff we got, but again they were just ideas - and might have seemed better on screen than on paper, if they had even been used, which I'm not totally sure they would have been.
I respect your opinion on season 3, but surely you have to concede that the more absurd elements are purposeful in a way that aspects of season 2 are not? There has just been a long and interesting discussion about the Bob orb on another thread, talking about the scene in relation to narrative expectations, wish fulfilment and Cooper’s tragedy. You don’t get that with super Nadine or Little Nicky. The fact is that Lynch has the ability to create work that affects people profoundly, so that for every person alienated by a particular moment, someone else will totally adore it. This applies to comedy as much as anything else. Take the Wally Brando scene - I can’t think of a moment in a TV show so hilarious to some and shark-jumpingly awful to others. There is an idiosyncratic sensibility at play, which you just don’t get in the “throw everything at the wall” approach to mid season 2.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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AXX°N N. wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:08 pm @ Jonah:

That's a good point on if the Engels tidbits would have been used or how they could've been used--how many of the TP elements we know and love could be put in a single sentence and sound similarly lame?

I agree about seeing the cast in their prime and of course (and I was about to edit this in) how undeniably great it would have been to see those who have passed on. However, there's a similar point I can make there that you did about the Engels tidbits--who knows how much (or how badly) those we would've loved to see more of would have been utilized? Old TP made the extremely unpopular move to sideline Audrey, after all, and there's others (Donna comes to mind) who got shafted or downgraded to lesser storylines. That kind of thing might have continued.

The "renewed drive" is definitely the biggest thing I'm curious about when thinking about what could've been, because not only would the near-cancellation have lit a fire under them but the time-skip allows such a clean break from whatever narrative baggage they wanted to reorient.

The mythical quality is for sure alluring. But in a funny way (and it's a feeling I can't imagine a 90's S3 inspiring) the Return conjures those feelings in me within the narrative itself. When Cooper travels back to young Laura, and then we see Pete. I feel almost like my longing and Cooper's (and Lynch's, given how much he loves Laura as a character and how close he was to Nance) are one and the same in that moment.
Agent Earle wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:52 pm I've got news for you: Lynch & Frost have not only one-upped all those ridiculous ideas but put their preposterous invention to painful reality: a John Doe with a Cockney accent defeated Killer Bob in the form of a floating orb with the usage of a green glove. Blimey, it's like somethin' from the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers! :D :lol:
Haha, I've actually thought of that in those terms before! Actually, it's one of the reasons I disagree with people feeling like it doesn't fit their conception of TP, because I immediately thought back to how I felt hearing about those Engels accounts, and everything from Freddy to bOrb feel exactly like what I would've expected out of a 90's continuation. The bOrb is totally in line with Josie's face in the knob, owls superimposed over Bob's face, the blood on the carpet Maddy sees (especially the Japanese version!) and other garish effects that, honestly, are deeply factored into why I find TP appealing and why I never had an issue with the weirdly flash-based/rudimentary stuff in the Return.
Oh yeah, it definitely could have slipped back in quality after a renewed drive, especially if it had continued into Season 4, 5, and beyond. And cast members would have been sidelined or even more might have left the show. It might have gotten better or worse or better then worse, but I think we'd probably already seen it get as bad as it could get in mid-Season 2. So even if it got bad again, it still would have been worth it to see how good it could have been before that.

With regards to underutilizing the cast, remember how sidelined they all were in The Return? Sherilyn Fenn even (quite rightly in my opinion though I know others don't share that view) campaigned to get her part improved - and it worked.

Lynch did pay loving wonderful tribute to all the characters/actors that had passed on - and I commend him for that. But he and Frost treated the ones who came back after 25 years quite deplorably in my view, to the point that I can't understand it at all. It almost seems like they hate or are disinterested in the characters. (Not all of them, I like the Big Ed/Norma stuff - but even then I would have liked to see their wedding not be told about it via a throwaway line or two in Frost's book.)

I mean, I just feel as a writer if you've got a chance to go back to characters you loved 25 years ago when your story was unfairly cut short by cancellation, why not give them more to do, rather than little cameos ? This also happened in FWWM. There, it was understandable as the movie was focused on Laura's backstory and not all of them were connected to her. But in The Return it's much less understandable to me. I know they were more focused on Cooper, but even then they were more focused on Dougie - and yes, I know he's part of Cooper's story, and an important one, but even then they seemed reluctant to give us much of the Cooper character, even a damaged less boyscout-like one. There just seemed an overall reluctance and disinterest to do much with the town (Frost kept talking about getting away from the sleepy hamlet - why? It's not like you've been trapped there for 10 seasons, you're going back to it after 25 years away) or the original characters in favour of expanding the story into a variety of new locations and almost 200 (!) new cast members. It just felt like a disservice to the original cast and setting and that, more than anything, is what I most dislike about The Return. I just find it difficult to comprehend. I mean, admittedly, I wrote a novel set in a small town and in its sequel I got rid of the town and expanded it to a new canvas, so maybe I can sort of understand that part a little - and I introduced a lot of new characters, but I still kept my main ones as main roles, so that part I don't understand. And the town in my first book wasn't all that important a setting as Twin Peaks (heck, it's the title!) was to the series. So, yeah, I understand some of it - but not really, I would have understood it more had they been fed up writing the same characters and location for multiple seasons and wanted to move it in new directions, but it seemed a bit bizarre to me given they got the chance to go back, particularly as Lynch claimed to love the world of Twin Peaks and a continuing story - it seemed to me he does love that but he also wanted to make a new show or another Mulholland Drive even more. I'm sure many will disagree with me on these points and make valid arguments for some of these creative decisions - but it's still how I feel overall.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:59 pm I do think there is a tendency to laude anything Lynch does TP-wise and denigrate anything he wasn't directly involved in, which is understanable as the 6 episodes of the original series that he directed are the best (in my and most opinions) but it doesn't mean he's infallible, and he and Frost both do have the tendency to include some silly and unfunny stuff.
This point & the others are interesting food for thought.

A good example of Lynch escaping blame is the casting for Evelyn Marsh (iirc at least) and that's such a weak point of a series with otherwise excellent casting, even for minor characters. Maybe he'd checked out by then, but still.

As for me, my single least favorite moment of the Return is Lucy falling over backwards and it's exactly as you describe--I immediately thought of On the Air and its moments of broad humor that I find real head-scratchers. I like everything that comes after the pratfall--it's funny that this is regular behavior and that Andy consoles her so delicately, but the pratfall itself looks and sounds bad and is jarring and unfunny. But that's also exactly how I feel about when Andy hits his head with a plank in the S2 opener, which otherwise is such a brilliant episode, and might be my least favorite moment in a Lynch episode. So yeah, definitely not infallible, even when dealing with characters and actors I love dearly overall (Andy & Lucy).

I'll defend Wally Brando to death though (given this is the thread for that). I have a soft spot for overextended metaphors and his delivery is timed well. Honestly for me the big difference between On the Air, lesser S2 moments, and the slapsticky parts of S3 is that S3 way outclasses them in comedic timing. On the Air basically has no comedic timing, but the "Is it about the Bunny?" scene is impeccable pacing-wise.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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enumbs wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:20 pm I respect your opinion on season 3, but surely you have to concede that the more absurd elements are purposeful in a way that aspects of season 2 are not?
No, I'm afraid I don't concede that - I also respect your opinion, but I feel if much of that stuff had appeared in mid-Season 2 fans would hate it, but because it was Lynch (or Lynch/Frost to a lesser extent) fans tend to see some of that stuff as deeper and more purposeful than it might have been. That's not to say some of it wasn't on purpose - but I'm sure a lot of the stuff in Season 2 was on purpose too, including the bad disguises and the silly noir parody. Any of that stuff could be reframed in such a way - as an homage to Batman villians, an homage or parody of classic film noirs, meant to highlight the absurditiies in and around Twin Peaks, etc. I just don't truck much with elevating stuff just because Lynch had a hand in it. Some of the stuff in The Return is just bad imo, the same way some stuff in Season 2 is just bad. I understand if you and others disagree and I like reading your opinions, but that's just the way I see it. (Though I am more forgiving myself even of stuff Lynch does, even though it sounds like I'm not - I am, and less likely to pounce on bad stuff in The Return as much as bad stuff in mid-Season 2, so even I fall into this a bit myself, but I still think it's worth pointing out.)
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:59 pm I will say some of the stuff in The Return surprised me given how silly it was considering Lynch didn't like Season 2 and as you point out those ideas too. A lot of the stuff in The Return was questionable yet fans seem to really like that stuff because Lynch was involved, but a lot of it was just as bad as anything in mid-Season 2, which really was surprising to me. Especially how broad he went with Andy/Lucy and some other stuff. We tend to think of the slump as occurring because Lynch stepped away but how many of those silly storylines and ideas did he and Frost actually approve? We know he dictated the Josie in a drawer pull thing, which I love but many seem to find really bad. So it's quite possibly a lot of the bad stuff in Season 2 were Lynch/Frost ideas or approved by them, and this is apparent given some of the stuff in the revival or even On the Air which was very broad too (and mostly unfunny in my opinion). I do think there is a tendency to laude anything Lynch does TP-wise and denigrate anything he wasn't directly involved in, which is understanable as the 6 episodes of the original series that he directed are the best (in my and most opinions) but it doesn't mean he's infallible, and he and Frost both do have the tendency to include some silly and unfunny stuff. I haven't read Frost's books yet and as I learn more about them and the ideas in them, I'm increasingly less interested in them. So let's be honest - as much as we love them, they're definitely not infallible. And yes, Lynch might have made the Josie in the drawer pull scene better (it's probably the case that directors and writers taking his ideas implemented them in a weaker way), but I do wonder sometimes if that exact scene, even presented as it was, had been directed by Lynch would fans love it? Probably. What if we found out some of the most hated stuff was secretly directed by Lynch? Would the same fans then turn around and say they now loved all that stuff? I expect many would.
I really think that idea that a viewer will 'like' something just because 'Lynch directed it' is a red herring (a fish I don't particularly care for). On the margins knowing the artist might influence our thoughts on a piece of art. We might give it an extra half star or so. But, life is way too short. Viewers aren't going to torture themselves with something they don't like just because their favorite director was behind the camera. Lynch directing does not turn a stinker into a masterpiece.

So I don't think that's really true except on the very outer margin. Lynch's name attached to something might get a viewer to watch, but the work still has to sell itself.

(I hated the Josie in the drawer pull idea, but it might have worked with Lynch behind the camera. But Leslie Linka Glatter trying to imitate Lynch didn't work. And the acting on Chen's part was atrocious for that scene. Perhaps Lynch could have directed her to a better performance)
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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AXX°N N. wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:25 pm
Jonah wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:59 pm I do think there is a tendency to laude anything Lynch does TP-wise and denigrate anything he wasn't directly involved in, which is understanable as the 6 episodes of the original series that he directed are the best (in my and most opinions) but it doesn't mean he's infallible, and he and Frost both do have the tendency to include some silly and unfunny stuff.
This point & the others are interesting food for thought.

A good example of Lynch escaping blame is the casting for Evelyn Marsh (iirc at least) and that's such a weak point of a series with otherwise excellent casting, even for minor characters. Maybe he'd checked out by then, but still.
Lynch did have a hand in a lot of the Season 2 stuff that fans hate, both behind the scenes and on camera. How much, we don't know. (Look at the debate about the closing scenes of Episode 27, for example - though that's about stuff most fans, including me, like.) But I think it's worth rememebering that. We know he requested the Josie death scene and the drawer pull was his idea. I love it because it ties in to other themes about souls being trapped in wood, the Log Lady's husband, Brigg's comments, etc. Even the name of the development - Ghostwood. I would have loved had that been expanded on more. But many, mnay fans hate it, sure some hate the poor special effects (which Lynch couldn't really have changed had he directed it) or how silly Bob might have seemed. But I'm not sure the scene would have played all that more differently had Lynch directed it. It's even less OTT/silly than the glove scene in The Return. Lynch might have toned Bob back a bit and made him more menacing and there might have been some eerier strobe lights, but I imagine the rest would have played out as it played out. Fans just seem to hate that scene and even accused it of trying to ape Lynch by throwing Bob and LMFAP in, but it was Lynch's idea, all of it pretty much, as far as we know. Had that same scene appeared in a Lynch episode or we'd learned he directed that episode, I can almost guarantee it would be viewed much more highly than it is. And that is why I mentioned it - it's a good example of the kind of revisionism that Lynch fans enagage in, even me. We can overlook anything we don't like or reframe it to suit our deeper ponderings on the show, but dimiss this stuff more readily as trash if someone else wrote or directed it.

But really what I want to say is that it surprised me how the silly tone of the Season 2 subplots (many of which actually started in 8 and 9, which Lynch and Frost wrote, and which happen to be two of my favourite episoes - but they wouldn't reach their apex or nadir until the mid-season) carried forward into The Return given how much Lynch claims to hate Season 2. It's also weird how much he hates it considering how much of it he seemingly suggested or approved. Yes, he did improve Episode 29 massively, though, so there's that - maybe he would have elevated all the other stuff too, probably he would have, but I found a lot of the stuff in The Return wasn't elevated. Some of it just stunk imo. Even little silly plot things - like writing a letter to the sheriff that was intercepted - when she could have just called, seemed dated and odd. But a lot of the stuff just felt mid-Season 2 bad to me. It honestly did and it surprised me. From the slight teasers we got, I had expected a darker, gnarlier version of the original series, that focused more on ageing and death and lost dreams, and going back to the past - and I know some people claim we got that via Doguie and other plots (certainly we did in Parts 17 and 18 and the ending) but if so we got the rest of it in a at times - much broader, sillier, way than I was expecting. I wasn't even really expecting not even the original series or a return to its coziness (which fans often accuse you of wanting if you expressed any reluctance for the revival), but a darker, harder version of the original series - and I don't feel we even got that. In parts, yes, and I appreciate some of the anti-nostalgia for sure, but many of the decisions were just overall surprising and disappointing to me. I sound harder on it than I actually am but that's just because I'm pointing these things out - overall, I mostly like it and appreciate or try to appreciate it for what it is, but there's definitely a lot I don't like about it (but that doesn't mean I'm part of the Profundly Disappointed group - I'm not, not really, though I understand where they're coming from).
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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mtwentz wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:38 pm
Jonah wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:59 pm I will say some of the stuff in The Return surprised me given how silly it was considering Lynch didn't like Season 2 and as you point out those ideas too. A lot of the stuff in The Return was questionable yet fans seem to really like that stuff because Lynch was involved, but a lot of it was just as bad as anything in mid-Season 2, which really was surprising to me. Especially how broad he went with Andy/Lucy and some other stuff. We tend to think of the slump as occurring because Lynch stepped away but how many of those silly storylines and ideas did he and Frost actually approve? We know he dictated the Josie in a drawer pull thing, which I love but many seem to find really bad. So it's quite possibly a lot of the bad stuff in Season 2 were Lynch/Frost ideas or approved by them, and this is apparent given some of the stuff in the revival or even On the Air which was very broad too (and mostly unfunny in my opinion). I do think there is a tendency to laude anything Lynch does TP-wise and denigrate anything he wasn't directly involved in, which is understanable as the 6 episodes of the original series that he directed are the best (in my and most opinions) but it doesn't mean he's infallible, and he and Frost both do have the tendency to include some silly and unfunny stuff. I haven't read Frost's books yet and as I learn more about them and the ideas in them, I'm increasingly less interested in them. So let's be honest - as much as we love them, they're definitely not infallible. And yes, Lynch might have made the Josie in the drawer pull scene better (it's probably the case that directors and writers taking his ideas implemented them in a weaker way), but I do wonder sometimes if that exact scene, even presented as it was, had been directed by Lynch would fans love it? Probably. What if we found out some of the most hated stuff was secretly directed by Lynch? Would the same fans then turn around and say they now loved all that stuff? I expect many would.
I really think that idea that a viewer will 'like' something just because 'Lynch directed it' is a red herring (a fish I don't particularly care for). On the margins knowing the artist might influence our thoughts on a piece of art. We might give it an extra half star or so. But, life is way too short. Viewers aren't going to torture themselves with something they don't like just because their favorite director was behind the camera. Lynch directing does not turn a stinker into a masterpiece.

So I don't think that's really true except on the very outer margin. Lynch's name attached to something might get a viewer to watch, but the work still has to sell itself.

(I hated the Josie in the drawer pull idea, but it might have worked with Lynch behind the camera. But Leslie Linka Glatter trying to imitate Lynch didn't work. And the acting on Chen's part was atrocious for that scene. Perhaps Lynch could have directed her to a better performance)
I'm not really saying fans will like everything Lynch does, more that they tend to reframe stuff they don't like if it's in a Lynch episode. I know I've done it myself. I've even seen fans mention they didn't particularly care for an episode or parts of an episode (I might be thinking of Episode 9 here but maybe not), but when they checked and went back and saw Directed by David Lynch, they re-evaluated it. And fans do fairly criticze some of his stuff even in the original series (Episode 8 is probably a good example of this - it's often criticized for the hospital scenes and other scenes that people feel drag a lot - though I love it myself). I just feel the Directed by David Lynch has a tendency to create certain expectations - or lead to opinions being reframed if you notice it later. The Josie example is just one of many I could probably come up with simply because I see so many people dislike it even though Lynch hismelf suggested it - and, unlike Episode 29 where we see Lynch throw out an okay but subpar script and make it much much better, I can't really see a way he might have improved that scene other than the examples I gave above. And it's even different than 29 in that it was a pure Lynch idea/suggestion, whereas 29 already had a script he threw out and improved. It's almost like the reverse of 29 - seeing what someone else did with an idea whereas 29 was seeing what Lynch did with other ideas.

Other things, though, surprised me - for example, did you know I recently found a quote from back in the day where Lynch claimed to like the Diane Keaton episode (I posted it in the thread on that episode) and said he thought she did a great job with it? Yeah, he might have been being diplomatic to the media, but I believed what he said that he really did like it back then. So he was definitely suggesting and approving stuff - and even liking the results! I think also Season 2 has been unfairly reframed as worse than it was by many of the cast and crew (remember Kimmy Robertson saying in the DVD extras that she thought Season 2 pretty much sucked?) and Lynch's opinions on it might be along similar lines. You could say - broadly - that the first half of the season is pretty great, the middle is ropey at best but often bad (though there's still some good stuff), and the last third is an improvement, a mixture of good and bad, but to say the whole season sucked is unfair - some of the best stuff comes in Season 2. I wonder does Lynch realise that, he directed 4 epsiodes of it after all including the amazing stuff in 14 and 29, more than he directed of Season 1. So I just think the Season 2 sucks thing is just something that's stuck among some fans and even the creators, but they may not feel that way when they re-evaluate it and we know Lynch seemingly didn't think so (at least not fully) at the time. I know he had to be supportive of the show and couldn't trash it publicly back when it was on the air, so I get that there could have been some diplomacy - but I truly believe he did like the Keaton episode, the Josie stuff, the other stuff. He was pretty open about what he didn't like (29, Windom and Coop being out of their suits, etc.) so I can't see him lying about what he did like.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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I can assure you, if I find out tomorrow Lynch directed all the Ben Horne Civil War scenes, it won't change my opinion one bit :-).

And the same goes for Windom Earle dancing in his pajamas (that might have actually been Keaton).
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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@ Jonah:
I think I might have phrased that poorly--I mean in the case of Evelyn's casting, my memory is Lynch is who casted her, despite that not being common knowledge, so that's him having a hand in a greatly disliked aspect of the show even though the directors and writers of those episodes get the negative attention.

I'm not sure I have the bias you describe, but one can't really be clear on their own biases. I do know I'm aware when watching old TP that everything is conceptually passing through Lynch & Frost, and Frost specifically did pass-overs on the scripts for cohesion, so I'm aware anything I might like or dislike could be attributed to either of them. And I think an aspect of that survives in S3, too, because we can only take guesses at who did what and Frost is on record noting that some people get it wrong who was responsible for what. So all things visual aside, I tend not to assume something I like in TP must be Lynch or vice verse.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:22 pm Oh yesh, it definitely could have slipped back in quality after a renewed drive, especially if it had continued into Season 4, 5, and beyond. And cast members would have been sidelined or even more might have left the show. It might have gotten better or worse or better then worse, but I think we'd probably already seen it get as bad as it could get in mid-Season 2. So even if it got bad again, it still would have been worth it to see how good it could have been before that.

With regards to underutilizing the cast, remember how sidelined they all were in The Return? Sherilyn Fenn even (quite rightly in my opinion though I know others don't share that view) campaigned to get her part improved - and it worked.

Lynch did pay loving wonderful tribute to all the characters/actors that had passed on - and I commend him for that. But he and Frost treated the ones who came back after 25 years quite deplorably in my view, to the point that I can't understand it at all. It almost seems like they hate or are disinterested in the characters. (Not all of them, I like the Big Ed/Norma stuff - but even then I would have liked to see their wedding not be told about it via a throwaway line or two in Frost's book.)

I mean, I just feel as a writer if you've got a chance to go back to characters you loved 25 years ago when your story was unfairly cut short by cancellation, why not give them more to do, rather than little cameos ? This also happened in FWWM. There, it was understandable as the movie was focused on Laura's backstory and not all of them were connected to her. But in The Return it's much less understandable to me. I know they were more focused on Cooper, but even then they were more focused on Dougie - and yes, I know he's part of Cooper's story, and an important one, but even then they seemed reluctant to give us much of the Cooper character, even a damaged less boyscout-like one. There just seemed an overall reluctance and disinterest to do much with the town (Frost kept talking about getting away from the sleepy hamlet - why? It's not like you've been trapped there for 10 seasons, you're going back to it after 25 years away) or the original characters in favour of expanding the story into a variety of new locations and almost 200 (!) new cast members. It just felt like a disservice to the original cast and setting and that, more than anything, is what I most dislike about The Return. I just find it difficult to comprehend. I mean, admittedly, I wrote a novel set in a small town and in its sequel I got rid of the town and expanded it to a new canvas, so maybe I can sort of understand that part a little - and I introduced a lot of new characters, but I still kept my main ones as main roles, so that part I don't understand. And the town in my first book wasn't all that important a setting as Twin Peaks (heck, it's the title!) was to the series. So, yeah, I understand some of it - but not really, I would have understood it more had they been fed up writing the same characters and location for multiple seasons and wanted to move it in new directions, but it seemed a bit bizarre to me given they got the chance to go back, particularly as Lynch claimed to love the world of Twin Peaks and a continuing story - it seemed to me he does love that but he also wanted to make a new show or another Mulholland Drive even more. I'm sure many will disagree with me on these points and make valid arguments for some of these creative decisions - but it's still how I feel overall.
I think we're entering into some--to further mtwentz's metaphor--fishy territory here with any accusation of Lynch fans simply liking something because Lynch directed it. I'll acknowledge there's a benefit of doubt given to certain directors who have earned it, as well as a (rightful) tendency to parse a scene based on the director's obsessions, but there's also huge gaps in command of style, tone and atmosphere at play when comparing moments directed by Lynch vs. others that make it obvious why one might prefer a Lynch directed scene, or that a non-Lynch scene might have been directed differently. Even so, it's impossible to say whether or not what you're saying would be true. The chicken or the egg thing when it comes to directors and reception is an impossible circle that is pure conjecture and impossible to prove, and more than anything else offers a gateway into dismissing certain opinions. In my opinion. :D

As far as the rest of this post I have quoted, I really do get where you're coming from with your frustration, but I feel like you're answering a lot of the questions you are asking, and just not embracing the answers that you yourself have surmised: It's because it's 25 years later that Lynch felt no need to include certain characters, and certain characters weren't included because they did not fit the truth of the narrative that he found, and so there's Dougie in place of Cooper, 200 new cast members, a whole expansive world and a comparatively run-down Twin Peaks that no longer matters as once as it once did. As Axxon had keenly noted, The Return feels like the 26th season, and that seems to me to be part of the method of its making, and so in a sense all those lost seasons you are talking about ("fed up writing the same characters and location for multiple seasons") have been written and passed us by in Lynch/Frost's mind, and there was no going back. We pick up 25 years later with no concessions, and some of the characters are no longer central to the story, because that's true to life. That's what I love about it.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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One last thing I want to mention here that surprised me - I understood why Lynch left out some Season 2 stuff if he really didn't like it, so Leo not returning, or WIndom, or even Annie (but again that was a surprise as he suggested Heather Graham too) - but yet he brought back other elements of it such as Denise? Denise and Duchovny are great but that was a Season 2 character. The inconsistency seemed a bit strange to me. And it's not like Denise was brought back as some great big plot importance - the scene wasn't necessary at all and was only a cameo. I imagine maybe it had more to do with Duchovny than the character itself but then why not bring back Graham as Annie even if he didn't like the Annie character? Show her mumbling in a room somewhere while Norma looks on sadly instead of the 119 lady. It would have fit the plot more. So that kind of stuff surprised me too - he didn't fully dismiss Season 2 and did bring back some elements of it, but left out others. And even left out Season 1 characters - Josie, Catherine, etc (apart from archive footage). I know he couldn't fit in everyone, but some of these decisions just seem inconsistent.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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LateReg wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:03 pm I think we're entering into some--to further mtwentz's metaphor--fishy territory here with any accusation of Lynch fans simply liking something because Lynch directed it. I'll acknowledge there's a benefit of doubt given to certain directors who have earned it, as well as a (rightful) tendency to parse a scene based on the director's obsessions, but there's also huge gaps in command of style, tone and atmosphere at play when comparing moments directed by Lynch vs. others that make it obvious why one might prefer a Lynch directed scene, or that a non-Lynch scene might have been directed differently. Even so, it's impossible to say whether or not what you're saying would be true. The chicken or the egg thing when it comes to directors and reception is an impossible circle that is pure conjecture and impossible to prove, and more than anything else offers a gateway into dismissing certain opinions. In my opinion. :D

As far as the rest of this post I have quoted, I really do get where you're coming from with your frustration, but I feel like you're answering a lot of the questions you are asking, and just not embracing the answers that you yourself have surmised: It's because it's 25 years later that Lynch felt no need to include certain characters, and certain characters weren't included because they did not fit the truth of the narrative that he found, and so there's Dougie in place of Cooper, 200 new cast members, a whole expansive world and a comparatively run-down Twin Peaks that no longer matters as once as it once did. As Axxon had keenly noted, The Return feels like the 26th season, and that seems to me to be part of the method of its making, and so in a sense all those lost seasons you are talking about ("fed up writing the same characters and location for multiple seasons") have been written and passed us by in Lynch/Frost's mind, and there was no going back. We pick up 25 years later with no concessions, and some of the characters are no longer central to the story, because that's true to life. That's what I love about it.
To be fair, I think accusation is a bit strong and overtly defensive word for what is a general discussion - and if the discussion continues in that tone, it is likely to get more heated and I'll opt out. Also, you're oversimplifying and misquoting what I said - I didn't say Lynch fans liked everything that he directed, I already clarified that above and used parts of Episode 8 as an example. I also don't really like you saying I'm answering questions I'm asking - it feels too critical, like you're evaluatig an essay I wrote. This is just a dicussion. You're welcome to disagree with me of course, even strongly, but please don't misquote me or accuse me of accusing others of anything or say I'm answering my own questions. I'm just expressing some opinions and pointing out a tendency I've noticed for fans to reframe things, which I included myself of also doing. If you feel I'm wrong about that, fair enough but I'm not accusing anyone of anything. It's just something I've noticed (a lot) in the fandom for years. But I think words like accusation and evaluating my questions as answering them myself or even saying we're entering into fishy territory (which I don't feel we are - I think these things need to be pointed out otherwise it's just a Lynch lovefest all the time, and I do love Lynch, but that doesn't mean I can't point out what I perceive as flaws especially if I feel they're always being reframed in a way I don't agree with) - I'm sure you don't mean it all that way, but it comes across as too critical and dismissive. I didn't call out anyone in particular. I'm speaking in more general terms and have said I respect everyone else's opinions. Let's keep the discussion more general and if we disagree with each other, let's not criticize or dimiss each other's views, just point out ways we might see things differently. (I've even edited this a few times to be careful of my words as I don't want to be too defensive or heated either - I really just wanted a general discussion and to point out a few things I felt aren't often pointed out on here.)
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:04 pm One last thing I want to mention here that surprised me - I understood why Lynch left out some Season 2 stuff if he really didn't like it, so Leo not returning, or WIndom, or even Annie (but again that was a surprise as he suggested Heather Graham too) - but yet he brought back other elements of it such as Denise? Denise and Duchovny are great but that was a Season 2 character. The inconsistency seemed a bit strange to me. And it's not like Denise was brought back as some great big plot importance - the scene wasn't necessary at all and was only a cameo. I imagine maybe it had more to do with Duchovny than the character itself but then why not bring back Graham as Annie even if he didn't like the Annie character? Show her mumbling in a room somewhere while Norma looks on sadly instead of the 119 lady. It would have fit the plot more. So that kind of stuff surprised me too - he didn't fully dismiss Season 2 and did bring back some elements of it, but left out others. And even left out Season 1 characters - Josie, Catherine, etc (apart from archive footage). I know he couldn't fit in everyone, but some of these decisions just seem inconsistent.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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For the record, Lynch is dead wrong when he says that Season 2 of Twin Peaks sucked. I will tell him that to his face.

I much prefer Season 2 over Season 1. As we've noted elsewhere, Season 1 was just a little too conventional for most of us Peak fanatics.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
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