What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

[LateReg]

I can't see how anyone would prefer episodes 18-20 over 21-25, what with the excess of goofiness and a general sense of aimlessness (that's somewhat eased only by Jean Renault arc, which is great) about them. Eps 21-25 (and really also the last third of E20, which is Twin Peaks at its all-time high), on the other hand, is where the stakes are starting to get high with the arrival of Cooper's archnemesis opening up as-of-then unknown aspects of the hero's past that would eventually contribute to his fateful failure. Plus there's the excellent Josie/Eckhardt subplot and the most welcome reappearance of Bob during those eps, indicating he's still very much a force to be reckoned with. But to each their own.

Well, this is interesting to me. I know that we've expressed our unpopular opinions here, and I know that throughout the board we've all talked about favorite/best episodes and revealed unexpected favorites and made arguments for and against others. So I'm aware that there are some who would make a case for episodes that are usually regarded as "lesser." Just as I am aware that many of the episodes in a certain stretch are usually thought of as weak, even if there's no real consensus over just which one or two are the absolute weakest.

That said, I've mentioned at least three times on this board that I've come to the conclusion across my past few viewings that episodes 20 - 22 are the only ones I would say are actually bad. So right there, I've already basically said that I prefer 18 and 19 to 21 and 22. This isn't meant to be an argument, of course, especially since I can't fully remember what or how things happen within these episodes. I just know, for a fact, that my opinion suddenly and forcefully solidified across my past three viewings, without fail and without intention to prove anything, that 20 - 22 were the weakest, to the point that I'm surprised anyone would feel differently. Which is just to say that I'm genuinely curious to hear your argument about why I'm wrong or what I've missed! Which I will then take into my next viewing with me.

In advance, I will say that I like the Jean stuff just fine, so if that's what ends 20, I have no disagreement there. I think my complaint lies with the James/Evelyn stuff dragging well into those episodes, and everything else reverberating and feeling similarly like a neverending, downward spiraling slog. I'll also clarify that to say that for me, it's less about what's happening--maybe there is some interesting stuff going on, as you've already pointed out--but rather how it's happening, how it feels. It all just feels...not good. So please, tell me what you're seeing and what I should be looking for and where you'd agree or disagree.

[Agent Earle]

(and really also the last third of E20, which is Twin Peaks at its all-time high)

Definitely unpopular!

Is it, now? Well how's that possible is beyond me! How can anyone not love the super tense climax at the Dead Dog Farm, Leo's horror-ish resurrection and attack of Shelly in the dead of night, and then, just when Cooper and Truman take a deep breath, narrowingly escaping the catastrophe at the hands of Renault, there's a much larger threat rearing its ugly head in Truman's office when they return to the station.

[Agent Earle]

So please, tell me what you're seeing and what I should be looking for and where you'd agree or disagree.

You pose a great challenge to me, LateReg, that will have to go unanswered for the time being. Namely, I haven't seen these episodes in a good number of years, so I've been going off my memory when I was describing which ones appealed (overall) to me and which ones didn't (again, overall). I can say that after each of my viewings of the series over the years (some 4-5 of them), I came from it with similar feelings regarding the eps. And that is: the lowest point of the series came for me earlier in comparison with the popular opinion, and really encompasses only eps 18-19, possibly the initial half of 20 (which than rebounds epicly, so I can't consider it bad). The best reason I can give for that now - before I do another rewatch to come to more detailed conclusions - is that Windom Earle was such a great character for me that all the episodes in which he had a hand in are consequently elevated. Plus keep in mind that I actually like the James-Evelyn arc which the majority loathes, so there's that

[LateReg]

You pose a great challenge to me, LateReg, that will have to go unanswered for the time being. Namely, I haven't seen these episodes in a good number of years, so I've been going off my memory when I was describing which ones appealed (overall) to me and which ones didn't (again, overall). I can say that after each of my viewings of the series over the years (some 4-5 of them), I came from it with similar feelings regarding the eps. And that is: the lowest point of the series came for me earlier in comparison with the popular opinion, and really encompasses only eps 18-19, possibly the initial half of 20 (which than rebounds epicly, so I can't consider it bad). The best reason I can give for that now - before I do another rewatch to come to more detailed conclusions - is that Windom Earle was such a great character for me that all the episodes in which he had a hand in are consequently elevated. Plus keep in mind that I actually like the James-Evelyn arc which the majority loathes, so there's that

OK! Thanks for the reply. That makes sense for now, but whenever you get around to a rewatch, keep me in mind...and I'll let you know if I do and if my feelings have changed. Oddly, since 20 ends with the Dead Dog Farm resolution, I now find it surprising that I'd lump that in with what I view as my definitively poor stretch of three episodes! But I think it just has to do with how those episodes fit in with the trajectory of all the goings on, and that the storylines that are building from previous episodes at that point are all becoming overbearing. But I too would have to watch again to illustrate exactly why I feel this way. But for what it's worth, there is possibly a little something to my singling out of those episodes as the nadir: it's in episode 22 that the James/Evelyn storyline pretty much ends and in which Ben reverses the outcome of the Civil War, thus concluding at least two storylines and, echoing Ben's state, perhaps giving the illusion that the show itself is breaking free of the haze its been under.

[AXX°N N.]

Is it, now? Well how's that possible is beyond me! How can anyone not love the super tense climax at the Dead Dog Farm, Leo's horror-ish resurrection and attack of Shelly in the dead of night, and then, just when Cooper and Truman take a deep breath, narrowingly escaping the catastrophe at the hands of Renault, there's a much larger threat rearing its ugly head in Truman's office when they return to the station.

Oop, I meant specifically that being the "all-time high," cause aside from that quibble I do like all those to varying degrees and I know plenty others do too.

[mtwentz]

Is it, now? Well how's that possible is beyond me! How can anyone not love the super tense climax at the Dead Dog Farm, Leo's horror-ish resurrection and attack of Shelly in the dead of night, and then, just when Cooper and Truman take a deep breath, narrowingly escaping the catastrophe at the hands of Renault, there's a much larger threat rearing its ugly head in Truman's office when they return to the station.

Oop, I meant specifically that being the "all-time high," cause aside from that quibble I do like all those to varying degrees and I know plenty others do too.

I must admit that Leo scene was the scariest thing the show had seen since Leland killed Maddy. Too bad that was Leo's last great moment on the show.

[Jonah]

There's still definitely some good stuff in the mid-season slump and the later episodes, even if the overall quality is considered weaker. I think more of the sillier subplots and bad stuff just seems more noticeable in these episodes and the good stuff is never quite as good as, say, Pilot or Episode 14, so the bad stuff drags down the okay to fairly good stuff, leaving a lot of the episodes feeling overall subpar. But there are definitely great scenes and storylines here and there. The weaker stuff had already reared its head long before these episodes. The last time or two I rewatched I remember being surprised how early on some of these silly subplots began to appear in Season 2, during what's considered to be a great stretch of episodes leading up to the reveal. I think they just became more pronounced and/or there wasn't enough really great stuff to make them less noticeable as it went on. It's a season that feels overstuffed (it still feels to me like 2 or 3 seasons in one compared to a modern season of television, even the stetched-out and overlong early seasons of Lost) and under a lot of strain, but Season 2 is still for me - and many other fans - where the "real" Twin Peaks began.

I'm often impatient rewatching Season 1 (which has a reputation as being great but has never been my favourite) and eager to get to Season 2, but by the midway point I struggle on rewatches. I still maintain - as I've said on here many times now - there was enough good stuff to keep the show going (and still 7 - 10 million viewers to build on to get the numbers back up), especially if Frost and Lynch had returned to a Season 3 back then with renewed zeal after they appeared together in that Coop interview to campaign for the network to renew it for another season. The tide had turned and I know most of you think it couldn't have been reversed, but I think it could have been, and that we might have gotten something really special back then - better than The Return (and that in itself is probably also an unpopular opinion).

[Jonah]

I must admit that Leo scene was the scariest thing the show had seen since Leland killed Maddy. Too bad that was Leo's last great moment on the show.

Another unpopular opinion - I quite like a lot of the Leo and Windom in the cabin stuff. Yes, even the flute playing. I don't think of these scenes as necessarily the weaker stuff at all. For some reason, they work for me and I find them quite enjoyable.

I'm pretty sure I've said this before too (a lot of these topics sometimes seem to lead back to the same plot points!) but that horse costume/Briggs ambush scene is a wonder to behold - it's actually quite creepy but so unbelievably ludicrous to think both Windom and Leo are crouched together under that costume, creeping through the woods, with a tranquilizer gun. Yet somehow, despite being so ridiculous, it works.

[Agent Earle]

Another unpopular opinion - I quite like a lot of the Leo and Windom in the cabin stuff. Yes, even the flute playing. I don't think of these scenes as necessarily the weaker stuff at all. For some reason, they work for me and I find them quite enjoyable.

I'm pretty sure I've said this before too (a lot of these topics sometimes seem to lead back to the same plot points!) but that horse costume/Briggs ambush scene is a wonder to behold - it's actually quite creepy but so unbelievably ludicrous to think both Windom and Leo are crouched together under that costume, creeping through the woods, with a tranquilizer gun. Yet somehow, despite being so ridiculous, it works.

AMEN.

[AXX°N N.]

Personally I'm in the camp who look back on the infamous Engels tidbits on what would've kickstarted a 90's S3 (Briggs driving backward into creamed corn land, Doppelcoop as town pharmacist, etc.) and am really glad enough time passed for those ideas to fade away. I'm even glad, and was at the time, that the comic for the Gold Box set was nixed (is this an unpopular opinion?) because I trusted Lynch's gut. Had these alternate routes been taken, the themes of passing time (ymmv on how essential that is, of course) wouldn't be so baked into the DNA, and I just enjoy, all opinions on S3 aside, how well the Lodge mythos lends to a massive timeskip conceptually. It just makes sense given the Waiting Room element and the fact that the planets irl come in & out of alignment only every so often (although the irl Jupiter/Saturn alignments are totally off iirc in the timeline of both new and old seasons). Some of the in media res effect would have been retained with the shorter 3-year skip, but I've always enjoyed the uncanny feeling that S3 is actually S26 and we just never get to see all the strange meandering plot threads going threadbare over that time.

[Jonah]

Personally I'm in the camp who look back on the infamous Engels tidbits on what would've kickstarted a 90's S3 (Briggs driving backward into creamed corn land, Doppelcoop as town pharmacist, etc.) and am really glad enough time passed for those ideas to fade away.

I just don't think all of even any of those ideas would have necessarily been used. It's not even clear to me if he was definitely talking about Season 3, FWWM, or future TP movies. I think he even said his memory wasn't sure about all the ideas they had. But they were really just ideas floating around, not necessarily going to be implemented at all - or even if they were, not even necessarily the way they're now being presented all these years later. Sometimes ideas sound a lot worse when they're listed out than when you see them on screen or see a version of them that's changed over time. I think Frost would have come back stronger with more ideas and Lynch would have been more on board too, at least intiitally, though I'm sure one or both of them might have wandered away again once the show was back on track. I just think there might have been a renewed driving edge and determination in the early episodes of a new Season 3 back then - and I would have really loved to see that, the same as how you could feel the show being taken in a new and wild direction in early Season 2 (those opening moments with the introduction of the giant, all the Bob scenes, etc. which was really elevating the show to a new level of strangeness and intrigue). I would have loved to have seen that same driving force, but possibly even stronger and more determined given how they were cancelled/about to be cancelled (had it been reversed), in play. Of course, we might also have seen an early prototype of The Return without the passage of time plotline.

The main reason I'm so in love with the idea of a 90's season 3, though, is that so many of the cast were still alive and relatively young. We could have gotten to see more of them in all their glory. That's something I'm truly sorry we didn't get to see for at least one more season or a few more. Sure, it might not have been very good, but it might have been really really good. It's just a shame either way. It was more of a shame before The Return, as at least it did eventually get picked back up but I think maybe just a bit too much time had passed. I wouldn't necessarily give up The Return either, I just would have liked to have seen more of the original series before the revival. It probably wouldn't me nearly as good as the mythical dimensions it's taken on in my mind (the promise of things is usually better than the actual delivery and doubly so if it's something that was never to be) but I don't think I'll ever stop pining away for those episodes we never got to see. I also would have loved to see more TP movies after FWWM or even a renewal on Bravo when they picked it up. Basically, I think there was still a lot they could have done had the show been picked back up on ABC or Bravo or somewhere or they had done more movies somewhere in the early to mid 90's.

I'm even glad, and was at the time, that the comic for the Gold Box set was nixed (is this an unpopular opinion?) because I trusted Lynch's gut.

Regarding the comic, I don't mind that we never got that as it wasn't by the original creators or with the involvement of the cast. I can see why Lynch nixed it. I can't remember if I was disappointed at the time (I probably was) or if others were, but I think there was a sense of frustration because it looked like Lynch was taking it away but also not wanting to continue it himself. In hindsight, given that we got The Return, it was a good idea that it was nixed. It might have just been a curio, more valuable then because the show never seemed like it was coming back, but would be even more dismissed now considering that it did.

[Agent Earle]

Personally I'm in the camp who look back on the infamous Engels tidbits on what would've kickstarted a 90's S3 (Briggs driving backward into creamed corn land, Doppelcoop as town pharmacist, etc.) and am really glad enough time passed for those ideas to fade away.

I've got news for you: Lynch & Frost have not only one-upped all those ridiculous ideas but put their preposterous invention to painful reality: a John Doe with a Cockney accent defeated Killer Bob in the form of a floating orb with the usage of a green glove. Blimey, it's like somethin' from the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers!

[Jonah]

I will say some of the stuff in The Return surprised me given how silly it was considering Lynch didn't like Season 2 and as you point out those ideas too. A lot of the stuff in The Return was questionable yet fans seem to really like that stuff because Lynch was involved, but a lot of it was just as bad as anything in mid-Season 2, which really was surprising to me. Especially how broad he went with Andy/Lucy and some other stuff. We tend to think of the slump as occurring because Lynch stepped away but how many of those silly storylines and ideas did he and Frost actually approve? We know he dictated the Josie in a drawer pull thing, which I love but many seem to find really bad. So it's quite possibly a lot of the bad stuff in Season 2 were Lynch/Frost ideas or approved by them, and this is apparent given some of the stuff in the revival or even On the Air which was very broad too (and mostly unfunny in my opinion). I do think there is a tendency to laude anything Lynch does TP-wise and denigrate anything he wasn't directly involved in, which is understanable as the 6 episodes of the original series that he directed are the best (in my and most opinions) but it doesn't mean he's infallible, and he and Frost both do have the tendency to include some silly and unfunny stuff. I haven't read Frost's books yet and as I learn more about them and the ideas in them, I'm increasingly less interested in them. So let's be honest - as much as we love them, they're definitely not infallible. And yes, Lynch might have made the Josie in the drawer pull scene better (it's probably the case that directors and writers taking his ideas implemented them in a weaker way), but I do wonder sometimes if that exact scene, even presented as it was, had been directed by Lynch would fans love it? Probably. What if we found out some of the most hated stuff was secretly directed by Lynch? Would the same fans then turn around and say they now loved all that stuff? I expect many would.

The creamed corn planet doesn't sound any more outlandish than any of the stuff we saw in Part 8 or the golden orb stuff - in fact, it fits in with it imo. It's the same kind of cosmic backstory. I would have taken some of those ideas over some of the stuff we got, but again they were just ideas - and might have seemed better on screen than on paper, if they had even been used, which I'm not totally sure they would have been.

[JackwithOneEye]

I liked the Windom & Leo cabin stuff. Leo was such a big bad in S1, to have him neutered in s2 by a bigger big bad was a fun idea.

the aspect of Windom I cared for least was some of the disguise stuff I found a bit like bad TV.

[AXX°N N.]

@ Jonah:

That's a good point on if the Engels tidbits would have been used or how they could've been used--how many of the TP elements we know and love could be put in a single sentence and sound similarly lame?

I agree about seeing the cast in their prime and of course (and I was about to edit this in) how undeniably great it would have been to see those who have passed on. However, there's a similar point I can make there that you did about the Engels tidbits--who knows how much (or how badly) those we would've loved to see more of would have been utilized? Old TP made the extremely unpopular move to sideline Audrey, after all, and there's others (Donna comes to mind) who got shafted or downgraded to lesser storylines. That kind of thing might have continued.

The "renewed drive" is definitely the biggest thing I'm curious about when thinking about what could've been, because not only would the near-cancellation have lit a fire under them but the time-skip allows such a clean break from whatever narrative baggage they wanted to reorient.

The mythical quality is for sure alluring. But in a funny way (and it's a feeling I can't imagine a 90's S3 inspiring) the Return conjures those feelings in me within the narrative itself. When Cooper travels back to young Laura, and then we see Pete. I feel almost like my longing and Cooper's (and Lynch's, given how much he loves Laura as a character and how close he was to Nance) are one and the same in that moment.

I've got news for you: Lynch & Frost have not only one-upped all those ridiculous ideas but put their preposterous invention to painful reality: a John Doe with a Cockney accent defeated Killer Bob in the form of a floating orb with the usage of a green glove. Blimey, it's like somethin' from the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers!

Haha, I've actually thought of that in those terms before! Actually, it's one of the reasons I disagree with people feeling like it doesn't fit their conception of TP, because I immediately thought back to how I felt hearing about those Engels accounts, and everything from Freddy to bOrb feel exactly like what I would've expected out of a 90's continuation. The bOrb is totally in line with Josie's face in the knob, owls superimposed over Bob's face, the blood on the carpet Maddy sees (especially the Japanese version!) and other garish effects that, honestly, are deeply factored into why I find TP appealing and why I never had an issue with the weirdly flash-based/rudimentary stuff in the Return.