Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

General discussion on Twin Peaks not related to the series, film, books, music, photos, or collectors merchandise.

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

User avatar
Soolsma
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Peru

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Soolsma »

Jonah wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:49 am I also don't think it implies anything other than its basic definition so I wouldn't agree that it implies the "natural" stuff follows a set of rules or makes the show - outside the "supernatural" realm - any less surrealistic. However, I do think that is an interesting take for discussion re how the "natural" and "supernatural" are both surrealistic and whether one lends itself more to surrealism than the other of if both could fit the bill equally.
You cannot use the term supernatural, without implying there is something natural present regarding it as such. If the supernatural can be classified as surrealistic, then e.g. Harry Potter would be (partly) surrealistic, which is not at all, not in the slightest.
The philosophy of naturalism thrives on the belief that everything can be explained scientifically, whereas the supernatural points to that which can not. I think if one would try to appoint such traits to the world of Twin Peaks, one would find something way more interwoven, complex and undefinable, something surreal.
In surrealism (a term oft misinterpreted), irrationality is key, it is in fact, the very fabric it's made of, and I think the very same goes for Twin Peaks as a whole. Yes, it started out as a show with surrealist elements, seemingly placed in a more grounded world, and it thrives on that juxtaposition, which is a common theme in surrealism. But in the end, I both Lynch and Frost jointly steered towards the essence of the show: one where all sense of logic, and meager human definitions can be disposed of when it comes to the larger scope of things. Lynch's: "We are like the dreamer, who then lives inside the dream"', or Frosts' Pete Martell apparently being a checkers expert, both speak for themselves.

Mythological would indeed be a more fitting term, since instead of trying to define either the nature, or supernature of these occurrences, it rather describes the way the people have regarded these wonderful or strange things, or point towards their allegoric essence.
Last edited by Soolsma on Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Carrie Page: "It's a long way... In those days, I was too young to know any better."
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

I think something can be supernatural and still surrealistic. But, leaving the issue of surrealism out of it for a moment, one of the great things about Twin Peaks - again, imo - is the way the supernatural world encroaches on - and sometimes stays hidden on the edges of - the natural world. I thought that was the strength of the show - how a typical small American town soap opera opened up into a terrifying, and - yes, supernatural - world. That's really all I have to say on the matter. At this point there's quite a few different conversations going on here so there could be potentially quite a few threads made, but alas I don't have the time to move posts today. If anyone wants to create a "Is Twin Peaks supernatural or mythological?" thread, feel free.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
Soolsma
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Peru

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Soolsma »

Right, what I was actually most curious about, is how you regard surrealism. But perhaps we'll leave that for another time then.
Carrie Page: "It's a long way... In those days, I was too young to know any better."
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

Do you mean how I regard surrealism in regards to Twin Peaks and Lynch - or just in general? I rarely think about Lynch and Twin Peaks in those terms. I mean, I know Lynch delves into surrealism quite a bit - especially in his artwork - and his overall work can be surrealistic, yet I also think he's a lot more literal (in his television and film work) than people think sometimes. I still see the original series as very much supernatural, though, so while I find Frost and others reluctant to call it that interesting, it's just not a viewpoint I can really get on board with - though as I said it does make interesting food for thought. I think The Return is much more surrealistic than the original, of course, in that I see less of a divide between the natural and supernatural worlds, the dream talk and imagery is much more prevalent, and sequences like those in Parts 3 - and especially Part 8 - lean much more into that than anything in the original.

I'd have to give it some more thought really. It might make an interesting thread - I was mainly just weighing in on Frost preferring the term mythological to supernatural. I still think it's splitting hairs myself, but some great points have certainly been raised here, and I do think it's very interesting, just need more time to think about it. I'm really in and out too much today to have a proper conversation about this, though. I'm up the walls here and just coming back during little breaks. If you do decide to start a thread about it at some point, I might give it a better look - and more thought - at a later date, as by the time I start thinking about it again likely the conversation on this thread will have shifted onto something else again!
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
Stavrogyn
RR Diner Member
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:22 am
Location: Croatia

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Stavrogyn »

I love it when discussions turn toward language. Some very interesting notions about the term supernatural here!

Surrealism is a complex term, but some of Lynch's work can definitely be classified as surrealist; for example, Eraserhead. As I see it, surrealist films focus on symbolism and dream logic rather than traditional storytelling, and they are therefore usually more open to interpretation. The French avant-garde of the first half of the 20th century, Jean Cocteau, Luis Buñuel, etc. In literature, Lautréamont (even though he is considered a precursor).

It would be interesting to determine how surrealism and supernatural/natural apply to Twin Peaks. It might simply depend on each viewer's interpretation of the show; if a "strange" event is taken literally, it's supernatural, if it is taken symbolically, it's surreal.

Twin Peaks is, at least to me, much less surreal and more supernatural than Eraserhead.
All those years living the life of someone I didn't even know - Knight of Cups (2015)
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

Stavrogyn wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:37 pm Twin Peaks is, at least to me, much less surreal and more supernatural than Eraserhead.
Yes, very much agreed. The original series certainly. The Return is more a mixture of both, but still only features moments of surrealism imo, longer moments than the original series. I'd classify most of Lynch's films as supernatural/natural (or just natural) with moments of surrealism, whereas some of his paintings would be closer to more complete surrealism.

I do take Soolsma's points about the interwoven and more complex nature of Twin Peaks, though, where both are perhaps interwoven into a surreal tapestry. I still think the term supernatural very much applies, though, and more than mythological - especially in regards to the lodges, the red room, the entrance in the woods, the supernatural encroaching on or existing at the edges of the natural, as opposed to the more dream imagery, dream mentions, Cooper's dreams, etc. So I do not agree with Mark Frost on it being mythological over supernatural, unless that is just a preference to how he views the work which as the co-creator is certainly valid. I suspect, though, it's also because the term "supernatural" has taken on more negative (or at least less lofty/more readily dismissed critically) connotations due to popular ghost movies, for example, or other media. There's a certain tendency to look down upon such works in the critical sphere. Maybe his comment doesn't refer to that at all though - perhaps he just sees it as more mythological and doesn't like the term supernatural, and if so, that's fair enough too.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
Soolsma
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Peru

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Soolsma »

Like I mentioned earlier, I really think his notion stems from the fact that the term mythological can also be used to describe something being more allegoric in nature (yes pun here).
A very literal example: "Maybe that's all that BOB is, the evil that men do."

And yes indeed Jonah, this is also true for me (although definitely not the sole reason): the supernatural and it's tropes have become worn out for me and therefore would rather apply a more deserving term. Our myths have been with us for thousands of years, they have flourished through the heights of ancient intellect and still greatly impact our literature, art. The origin of the supernatural I associate with the stinky middle ages, Christians looking for werewolves to kill, witches to burn, now feeding our pulp media (bit of a hyperbole ;)).

Don't get me wrong, I love me a good ghost story, a cheap horror film, or even an X files episode. But it's just not that, not Twin Peaks.

Which raises my next question: How would you two, or others, discern the supposed supernatural elements of Twin Peaks vs. those of say; the X files, or any kind of other, more generic, supernatural stuff. :)
Carrie Page: "It's a long way... In those days, I was too young to know any better."
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

I think as a term supernatural has a tendency to be looked down upon. The generally considered opinion that if something is supernatural it must automatically be of lesser quality - subpar or words like "cheap" and "generic" - as opposed to something that is set in the natural world. This might be why Frost winced at the term. But it simply means something that is not understood by current science/laws of nature. It is not - and should not be - indicative of quality.

I think that may be the main issue here with people who have a hard time considering Twin Peaks to be supernatural. First of all, I want to clarify - despite me defending the term, I'm actually not a fan of supernatural stories generally, but not because I think its a lesser thing, just for example I prefer more grounded horror/thriller stories usually. And I've never been a fan of "The X-FIles" or shows like that. But it's not necessarily true that supernatural means lesser, cheaper quality, and I think that notion is the first thing we need to dispense of.

Remember too "Twin Peaks" is also a soap opera (as declared by Lynch or a soap opera parody - which Lynch disagrees with) and also has much of its elements. So it was already dipping its toes in a world of schlock even without the supernatural elements - soap operas are often considered the lowest of the low, yet Lynch himself has insisted it is a soap opera, not a parody of one. (He always intended "Invitation To Love" to be a loving homage, not a parody/dismissal of them, which is why he probably got rid of that element once the clips became increasingly satirical.) Many detective stories were also often considered to be "dime store trash" - yes, Raymond Chandler and others might have elevated them, as too did adaptations like "The Big Sleep" starring Humphrey Bogart, but many were still considered to be lower quality literature - yet TP happily revels in those hardboiled trappings too, at times lifting Coop out of them and also bestowing him with a lot of Eastern wisdom, heavily overlaid as whimsy. Let's not forget - Twin Peaks (as much as some of us may have it on a pedestal) could also be very silly, even subpar at times: the middle stretch of Season 2, and some of the plotting around the lodges, the UFO talk, Briggs going missing in the woods, the special effects - don't get me wrong, I love all of it, but some of that comes across as quite cheap and silly, perhaps even less polished than something like The X-FIles to some viewers. And, despite Lynch hating Season 2, which led me to expect a more serious, gritty revival, I was surprised to find The Return leaned a lot into these elements and could be very silly at times, even intentionally.

Supernatural, again, just refers to something that can't be understood by current science/laws of nature. It's not necessarily a cheap horror movie with bad effects and cringey acting. The Henry James novella "Turn of the Screw" is supernatural, as is Bram Stoker's "Dracula", both classics. Another example is "Rosemary's Baby", the novel and movie of which are both modern classics (love Ira Levin, who actually didn't venture into the supernatural otherwise, preferring either thrillers or sci-fi). Countless more examples of supernatural movies and novels that aren't considered subpar. Probably better examples. Those are just a few. Yes, a lot of supernatural movies and novels may indeed be schlocky, cheap, even trash. But that doesn't mean all are - and I think it's a shame the term is so aligned with perceived quality. I think we - and Frost - need to try to separate that bias in order to discuss Twin Peaks being supernatural.

To try the answer your question more, I suppose I would say the difference between Twin Peaks and another supernatural show might be in its approach. Another show might be more concerned with exploring the supernatural in a more overt way and earlier on, or delve more into its genre trappings (either in a tongue-in-cheek way or a more serious way). Whereas I think the supernatural is something that encroaches upon Twin Peaks - both the town and the show itself. I find it interesting how it begins more in the natural world - or a quirky depiction of a natural town with oddball characters - and slowly becomes more supernatural, perhaps as the lodges begin to exert their presence more on the town. That which is hidden/on the edges slowly becomes more prominent within the characters and the setting, seeping into both. That is something I find intriguing and wish the show had been given longer to explore. Twin Peaks would still be quirky - and, yes, surreal - even if it was not supernatural, in its depictions of the town, the characters, Lynch's framing, etc., but it is still quirky and surreal - perhaps more so - even when it becomes supernatural.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
mtwentz
Lodge Member
Posts: 2185
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by mtwentz »

Taking the elements of the Dugpas and the Tulpas- I would consider those more mythological than supernatural. Whereas ghosts and spirits from a Western sense would be supernatural.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by JackwithOneEye »

Stavrogyn wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:37 pm I love it when discussions turn toward language. Some very interesting notions about the term supernatural here!
Indeed, considering how Lynch's earliest work 'The Alphabet' deals with the notion that imagery and raw thoughts enter the brain, but language is imposed upon us in early childhood development to instantly translate thoughts into words, and hence limits us in some ways.
User avatar
Soolsma
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Peru

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Soolsma »

Abandon all logic! Long live irrationality!

Did you know that for certain standardized tests that measure creative thinking, 3 year old kids often score genius levels. As they become older and more educated and start making more logical choices, their creative capacity becomes impaired. A friend of mine once told me that the atmosphere surrounding Lynch screams this refusal to ''grow up'', to my confusion. I think I might understand him more now.
Carrie Page: "It's a long way... In those days, I was too young to know any better."
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by JackwithOneEye »

Asparagus for dinner again tonight....

his paintings are very child-like, and seem based on specific incidents he remembers, discoveries about the world, sometimes with bits of language.

even when he gets into adult themes like parenting, it seems like Henry Spencer doesn't want to let go of imagination and wonderment,
and fears responsibility.

re language - a word like jealousy for example packs a lot in. it's this very visceral uncontrollable thing you feel that comes over you,
and our brains are conditioned to translate all this stuff you feel into a neat little word.

there are scenes in Mulholland and LH that really captures what these emotions feel like, in ways that coded language just can't convey.
User avatar
mtwentz
Lodge Member
Posts: 2185
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by mtwentz »

Soolsma wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:37 am Abandon all logic! Long live irrationality!
That's what I love about Mr. C getting some coordinates, driving from South Dakota to Washington to be raptured up into a vortex and....dumped in front of the Sheriff's station.

So irrational, so creative, so dreamy
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
User avatar
Audrey Horne
Lodge Member
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The Great Northern

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Audrey Horne »

And so, so, so much of it!

I loved Lynch making it eighteen parts, airing week to week and starting it off with The Giant saying, “listen to the sounds” and then it all adding up in such a meticulous way! And by loved, I mean taking a nail and a hammer to my hand and playing a fun game of tension.

What did Mr. C want again? I know, I know, I shouldn’t expect wrapped up bows and answers… but McMuffin objectives for week to week suspense probably would’ve helped.
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by JackwithOneEye »

Wisteria article on world of reel... all stuff we know already summarized..

https://www.worldofreel.com/blog/2021/1 ... d-wisteria
Post Reply