Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

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NormoftheAndes
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by NormoftheAndes »

Jonah - whilst I would agree with you that Shelly's whole non-arc in The Return was unsatisfying to say the least, the question is why did Lynch and Frost opt for that? It is a choice on their part, not just some mistake or that they ran out of time. Audrey as a hair salon owner was merely a suggested idea more from Frost that never made it into the show. I wouldn't have minded seeing that.

I don't really mean Frost's books details about the lives of Twin Peaks residents, I mean the whole Dougie Milford parts and that backstory.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

Stavrogyn wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:10 am
Jonah wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:00 am I still feel - perhaps it's my writer brain - much more could have been done with the character's stories.
The Return actually influenced my own writer brain so much that at some point I realized that I have found an excuse and an even stronger inclination to write in that slice of life kind of way where backstory isn't necessarily explained and there is no real conclusion.
Funny you mentioned backstory - it's actually what I'm weakest at and have been criticized most for with my own work. I hate it and find it disinteresting and rarely include it, often to my detriment, leading some agents/editors unable to connect with my characters. I'm more a plot guy - I was watching Lost more for the weird hatch and magic island than for the characters, much as I love them. With Twin Peaks, it was a bit of both. I don't really care about backstory as much - for example, I think on paper Coop's backstory re Windom is quite strong but one might even argue clunkily introduced in too heavy-handed a way in the original series that Lynch wouldn't have (compared to the subtler but much more devastating touches later in Episode 29). It's not even that that's my issue with the characters - I just wanted to see some (not all) of them involved in more interesting plots.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by NormoftheAndes »

Jonah - yes, we are given some backstory to Windom and Coop, whether that interests viewers is going to vary of course. I would say Earle was portrayed so wildly and veering between sinister and plain silly, its entirely likely that some of the audience would have dismissed it as panto.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by JackwithOneEye »

I may not agree with your criticism per say Jonah, but I get where you're coming from, and I enjoy reading your opinions and your explanations are clearly thought out and sincere.

I actually enjoy reading Ebert's pans of Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart. it's valid to say how you feel.

another thing I appreciate about the Horne storyline, is that Beverly needs the job, needs the health insurance, and has to play some flirtation games and office politics as part of her and her family's survival, and I feel all of us in America at least, are kind of trapped in this way with employer provided health care. Lynch doesn't linger on it, and doesn't make it into a hyper social preach fest, but, it's emotionally realistic and relatable.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

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NormoftheAndes wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:14 am Jonah - whilst I would agree with you that Shelly's whole non-arc in The Return was unsatisfying to say the least, the question is why did Lynch and Frost opt for that? It is a choice on their part, not just some mistake or that they ran out of time. Audrey as a hair salon owner was merely a suggested idea more from Frost that never made it into the show. I wouldn't have minded seeing that.

I don't really mean Frost's books details about the lives of Twin Peaks residents, I mean the whole Dougie Milford parts and that backstory.
My honest feeling on this - and I don't mean it as criticism in the slightest though it will probably sound critical - is that they weren't hugely interested in some characters or exploring characters or exploring detailed plots in The Return itself (not counting Frost's books here). They were more interested in Coop's journey and the many versions of him, I think, and threw the others in as colour like surrounding scenery, pulling at a few threads here and there, adding a bit more depth or happy endings (Norma, Ed), and completely forgetting about - or letting other storylines - peter out. I know people will say all of that is intentional on their part - and maybe it is - but to me it felt like writers focused on a central arc or a few central arcs (Coop, etc.) and disinterested in subplots and not investing as much energy into them. Sure, it could all be deliberate, but remember - as highly talented as both men are - they're still just people, and all writers/creators have highs and lows, strengths and weaknesses, and all writers have a tendency to really invest in one part or a few parts of a larger work and let others fall by the wayside. I feel that's what happened, but if others don't, that's cool. I respect everyone's views. All I'm saying is my own feelings and observations. I know it sounds critical - again, probably because I've been trained to look for holes in my own work and other's work and have my editor hat on - but it's really not meant to sound perhaps as harsh as it does.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

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NormoftheAndes wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:21 am Jonah - yes, we are given some backstory to Windom and Coop, whether that interests viewers is going to vary of course. I would say Earle was portrayed so wildly and veering between sinister and plain silly, its entirely likely that some of the audience would have dismissed it as panto.
Yes, agreed, very much. Windom was wildly mishandled by other writers and directors. I enjoyed much of it myself (though I just can't with most of the disguises) and really appreciate how keen Lynch's eye was to keeping him in black and more menacing, just like he kept Coop in suits. I think all of that criticism about the other writers is very valid. Which is why I found it more surprising that Lynch himself engaged in a lot of silly stuff and self-indulgent stuff in The Return. Some of that stuff felt like mid-Season 2 to me, which really took me by surprise as he was so adamant about disliking that kind of silliness and humour in mid-to-late Season 2 that I think I was expecting a much more serious, darker, grimmer version of Twin Peaks - which, yes, we got, but we got a lot of silliness too. And it just didn't work for me. I noticed a lot of that in the subplots of Mulholland Drive too - the bumbling hitmen, etc. A lot of that kind of stuff - and Jerry's shoe - crept into The Return, which really put me off.
JackwithOneEye wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:21 am I may not agree with your criticism per say Jonah, but I get where you're coming from, and I enjoy reading your opinions and your explanations are clearly thought out and sincere.

I actually enjoy reading Ebert's pans of Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart. it's valid to say how you feel.

another thing I appreciate about the Horne storyline, is that Beverly needs the job, needs the health insurance, and has to play some flirtation games and office politics as part of her and her family's survival, and I feel all of us in America at least, are kind of trapped in this way with employer provided health care. Lynch doesn't linger on it, and doesn't make it into a hyper social preach fest, but, it's emotionally realistic and relatable.
Thanks! Same here - I like reading everyone's views too even when I don't agree with them. I often read critical reviews of movies I love - I usually don't agree but sometimes I do but still love the work anyway.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by NormoftheAndes »

Jonah - very enjoyable to have this conversation here with you and others. In terms of Shelly in The Return - her whole story is about her suspicion that something is not right, it seems, expressed first in her worries over Steven and Becky. In terms of her being split up from Bobby and now in a liason with Red, an out-of-town blatant sinister figure - none of that feels in the slightest bit right. Why is Shelly behaving like that? Moreover, Red doesn't even feel completely real - he has something of the surpernatural, dark Mr C figure about him - a stereotypical bad guy. It seems like we are seeing a side of Shelly trapped in this darker side of herself - we are not seeing the whole.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

Another thing worth noting about me - the older I get, the more watches it takes for me to truly like something. When I was younger, I fell in love with things, often easily. Now it can take a long time for appreciation to grow. That doesn't necessarily make any of my criticisms of The Return invalid, though, but it's something I've noticed about myself. I actually felt I acclimated to The Return very quickly - I quickly saw it wouldn't be the show I'd been expecting/hoping for (I think many people realised that after the first 4, or even first 2, that it wouldn't be like the original series) and rather than criticizing it at the time or resisting it, I made a conscious decision to go with it - and try to appreciate it for what it was, rather than what I wanted it to be. I think I mostly succeeded with that, at the time anyway, but some gripes and wishes remain with me.
NormoftheAndes wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:31 am Jonah - very enjoyable to have this conversation here with you and others.
Same here - I have to head out for a bit but I'll be back on later to dive more into everyone's posts.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by JackwithOneEye »

I just accept it that Shelly thinks bad boys are sexy and exciting. It doesn't make her a bad person, but a lot of the population go with love and libido until things go downhill. Leo Johnson I'm supposing was dreamy at one time, Bobby when he was up to no good, and Red, he is good looking, has a whiff of danger. Probably a big catch considering how rural and remote Twin Peaks is. Bobby may be less sexually appealing now that he's gone straight.

It kinda makes sense to me that she wouldn't want her daughter making these mistakes and would want something better for her, it's a bit cartoony and exaggerated of a reality she lives in that she can't fully see Steven is shite, but to be honest, I've seen beautiful women attracted to dudes from the dregs like that before. Life is odd sometimes.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by LateReg »

NormoftheAndes wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:59 am Yes, Richard Beymer was excellent. I really liked Ashley Judd too. I wouldn't say any of their scenes were weak, nor would I describe them even as stories. All we really get are glimpses into their existence - which is quite something when The Return runs 17 hours!

The Return isn't about storylines, I'd struggle to find a complete story told from start to finish during the course of 'season 3' at all in fact. Whilst I think Mark Frost could have been enthusiastic about having more clear narrative strands in The Return, I see it as he compromised with Lynch who wanted to go the INLAND EMPIRE route and have lots of vignettes, dead ends and mere glimpses into lots of different character's lives. His Secret History/ Final Dossier books included fleshing out of various possible storylines. For what its worth, I would have rather liked the content of those books being integrated into the overall shape of the series - either directly or more vaguely, to offer more backstory. I woud argue that The Return feels lacking in some sort of depth that backstory and substance would have provided (which there was a lot of in the original show) but then this season was so GODDAMN dreamlike, one could argue does it necessitate that sort of depth and story?
That's well-put. What's really interesting is the idea of backstory. I think The Return has a ton of depth, scenes seem to really ring out and ripple into others and various themes and moods, and typical backstory is not necessary for all that. But how much of that still stems from backstory? It would seem that very little does, but then again the way it is written, each character carries with them the weight of their backstories, of not only the original series but the 25 years in between--25 years that the viewer must imagine, but which, to me, is perfectly vivid.

I read in a later post you were more focusing on Dougie Milford's content being integrated into the series, and that triggered another thought. I just have to say that I find that, having read Frost's Secret History in advance of the series, I felt that it proved a guide to get into some of the deeper ideas hinted at within the series itself. From the cross-country journeys of Lewis and Clark to the origins of the ring to the conspiracy theories and black magic and threats both atomic and alien, I think that Frost's book is underrated as a part of deciphering/digging deeper into The Return. A lot of folks say that it seems like as separate thing or point out that certain scenes in The Return (Wally Brando!) have no meaning, but I think Frost's Secret History lends a lot of insight into what's in The Return and where his head was at, and can lead you down many paths.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

One of these days I'm going to have to post a thread listing out all the things I really liked about The Return just to make it clear not all my opinions on it are negative. I also have a lot of critical things to say about the original series - in spite of it being my all-time favourite television show ever. There's just some gripes that continue to linger for me, but for the most part I accept it for what it is - or try to - and also try to make the best of it.

I also have a lot of gripes (as I'm sure many do) with how the second season progressed from about 17 onwards, not to mention how we never got a Season 3 back in the day. My biggest gripe - bigger even than any I have with The Return - is how they didn't keep the momentum after Episode 16 (itself problematic) and followed a Bob-inhabiting-someone-else-storyline and/or (if that's not your bag), brought Windom into it sooner sans silly costumes, continued to focus on the Palmers, etc. Or even just called it an end to Season 2 at the end of 14 or 16, taken some time and then rebuilt a new season from there. That probably wouldn't have been possible given the episodes were already ordered, but I think it's what was really needed back then.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Audrey Horne »

Excellent back and forth past few pages, especially about the art of writing. It’s a thankless art - truly in screenwriting- because if done right, it just flows with the narrative/world. And if it is done wrong, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I believe the case regarding the original actors and their plotlines seeming aimless, or not as connective, is the nature in how Lynch and Frost designed the story. They worked for a few years on the spine before approaching the original cast (besides MacLachlan), and based on whether or not they agreed to be a part of it, they figured the next step of the townsfolk.

From what I’ve been told, the actors came in (separately) in 2015 and were given their pages to read. A few called each other and realized they all had about fifteen to twenty pages in total, realizing this was going to be a very different show.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by AXX°N N. »

I really think it boils down to what you think is or isn't proper in terms of narrative, what it has to do in order to reflect or inform life, what your perspective is or isn't on what is meant by 'realism' and what obligations one has to convention and narrative tradition. Although, again, to pause and bring attention to the word 'tradition' as a potential misnomer: tradition in terms of modern storytelling is self-evident, yet the further back you go in the history of narrative, the less 'traditional' it is despite its age. Early epics and myths, from the Odyssey to the Bible, were intensely surreal and their treatment of character nowhere near the dominating current style and method.

Often, today's works deemed experimental, daring or new are actually harkening back to the symbolic systems and manners of old trappings; Kafka and Pynchon, for example, had an avid interest in Kabbalah, which are texts with nebulous, unfixed characters and settings that morph radically; what it's saying, it goes without saying, is hard to put into words, and a chief claim made about the Kabbalah is that it was meant to evoke, not to clarify itself. Burroughs and his whole clique and Kerouac and his whole clique cross-atlantic were mystics. James Joyce, perhaps the most recognizable symbol of confusing narrative choices, including a character who is both one character and hundreds at once, took from the Odyssey and every sort of weird myth; Mark Frost has pointed to the Odyssey multiple times in relation to the Return's structure, and Lynch has shown intense interest in Hindu myth, even using it to clarify his perspective on S3's ending.

I'm well acquainted with being blown away by a piece of art, only to find others thought it was plotless, characterless, lacked payoff, didn't mean anything, went nowhere, etc. Sometimes these are famous, acclaimed works. Sometimes not. On the other hand, I've picked up many a classic and found it totally devoid, uninteresting, having no real meaningful reflection to life, etc. in total opposition to its intended or common effect. Art is like love, there's no accounting for it.

On the topic of bad artistic decisions or faults, to quote Schopenhauer:

"But there is always a limit to human capacity; and no one can be a great genius without having some decidedly weak side, it may even be, some intellectual narrowness. In other words, there will foe some faculty in which he is now and then inferior to men of moderate endowments. It will be a faculty which, if strong, might have been an obstacle to the exercise of the qualities in which he excels. What this weak point is, it will always be hard to define with any accuracy even in a given case. It may be better expressed indirectly; thus Plato's weak point is exactly that in which Aristotle is strong, and vice versa; and so, too, Kant is deficient just where Goethe is great."
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jasper »

Excellent and erudite observations, AXX°N N.
AXX°N N. wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:48 pm Lynch has shown intense interest in Hindu myth, even using it to clarify his perspective on S3's ending.
I'm not sure that I've seen these comments. Do you have any idea where they might be found?
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Soolsma »

@Jasper

I think what AXX°N N. might be referring to is mostly covered in this article. I had to look it up too! Amazing stuff, I've been wondering where he got the 'ancient phrase' from.

https://25yearslatersite.com/2017/08/15 ... he-return/

The original:
“Look Balaki,” the king said. “Do you see that spider?”
“Yes,” said Balaki, “I see the spider moving along its web.”
“We are like the spider,” said the king. “We weave our life, and then move along in it. We are like the dreamer who dreams and then lives in the dream.
“This is true for the entire universe. That is why it is said, ‘Having created the creation, the Creator entered into it’.
“This is true for us. We create our world, and then enter into that world. We live in the world that we have created. When our hearts are pure, then we create the beautiful, enlightened life we have wished for.”
The last sentence even brings Hawk's introduction to the Lodges to mind.

Apparently he also used a version of it while promoting IE.
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