Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

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Jonah
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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JackwithOneEye wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:16 am susan sarandon taking pictures of flowers
I think it was more that Sherilyn Fenn shared it.
Last edited by Jonah on Thu May 06, 2021 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Histeria wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:38 am What does everyone think about the tweet below? Surprised it gets so little traction. I thought it was the most solid nugget in recent weeks/months when I read it but seems like I'm the only one that does. Didn't really get any heat on Twitter, either despite these guys having super access to the cast and crew.


https://twitter.com/DamnFineJava/status ... 16453?s=19
Am I the only one who can't see the original tweet, just the replies?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Jonah wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:19 am
Histeria wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:38 am What does everyone think about the tweet below? Surprised it gets so little traction. I thought it was the most solid nugget in recent weeks/months when I read it but seems like I'm the only one that does. Didn't really get any heat on Twitter, either despite these guys having super access to the cast and crew.


https://twitter.com/DamnFineJava/status ... 16453?s=19
Am I the only one who can't see the original tweet, just the replies?

J Minton spoke about the show ending, which was a surprise as there wasn't anything imminent mentioned in podcasts to that date.

The TPU handle then thanked him for contributing and confirmed the end of the show.

"Beano" responded to that tweet expressing his surprise that the show would suddenly end.

Then Bryon replied saying it's only a long but temporary hiatus until Season Four.

"Beano" asked if that was a reference to "Unrecorded Night" and the Twin Peaks Unwrapped account replied with a "thumbs up" emoji.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by thedougpa »

I have a question, or two, about rumors surrounding the old "spoilers" thread that hopefully I can get answered here on an otherwise uneventful day. These are all memories from reading the thread daily and are lost to the great purge.

On the night of filming Richard and Carrie walking up to the Palmer House, was there an alternate scene shot where Grace Zabriski opens the door? I explicitly remember this being mentioned, long before anybody knew what the scene would be.

Following that thread, there was also a shot displayed on David Lynch's camera screen that had a POV from inside the Palmer House, possibly the upstairs bedroom. Was this ever explicitly confirmed?

These, of course, are related to the idea that David shot alternate scenes while on set for Season 3, tying into the 3A/3B rumors that Lynch was going to release a surprise season after S3. We also know the Giant was filmed in the Red Room.

An unrelated memory, but I'd like to get a solid answer to: I remember bystanders at the shoot mentioning that the extras in the Hit-and-Run Boy scene were not told by David Lynch what they were actually reacting to. Thus the awkward/strained reactions in that scene. Was this true? I've always longed for an answer to this. There are no answers in the partially-nuked spoilers thread.

Thanks Dugies.

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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Possible there was more coverage shot in the house.

There are photos I've seen online of Kyle MacLachlan in the house. But I dunno if those are photos from a deleted scene, could be he wanted to see the ceiling fan, or had to use bathroom.

The giant in red room i've seen in the BTS. I think I heard an explanation of what that was, where it would have gone somewhere, but I dunno, might just be speculation, unless it came from Duwayne Dunham or Dean Hurley.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I would have thought Showtime/CBS would have put it in the contract that any time spent on production has to be used for the show they're being paid to make.

It seems odd they'd let Lynch spend production time and money on stuff not actually part of their order as a client. Same thing for speculation that claims Lynch is saving footage from The Return for future Twin Peaks installments. Not sure how CBS would feel about their very hard-fought financial package that Lynch held them hostage for actually contributed to a Netflix Original.

So while I can entertain rumours that they've been filming ad goc scenes since 2017 (because they'd be doing it on their own dime until a financing/distribution deal is struck with someone), I would be very surprised if CBS and Showtime didn't think to ensure production resources for The Return were all actually in service to the show they ordered.

Lynch once told Cahiers du Cinena that he didn't know how many episodes the show would end up being until we'll into the editing process. But surely the episode count is part of the series order contract? I don't see a scenario where Showtime are OK with not knowing how many episodes/hours they're actually buying until delivery day.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Histeria wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:23 am
Jonah wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:19 am
Histeria wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:38 am What does everyone think about the tweet below? Surprised it gets so little traction. I thought it was the most solid nugget in recent weeks/months when I read it but seems like I'm the only one that does. Didn't really get any heat on Twitter, either despite these guys having super access to the cast and crew.


https://twitter.com/DamnFineJava/status ... 16453?s=19
Am I the only one who can't see the original tweet, just the replies?

J Minton spoke about the show ending, which was a surprise as there wasn't anything imminent mentioned in podcasts to that date.

The TPU handle then thanked him for contributing and confirmed the end of the show.

"Beano" responded to that tweet expressing his surprise that the show would suddenly end.

Then Bryon replied saying it's only a long but temporary hiatus until Season Four.

"Beano" asked if that was a reference to "Unrecorded Night" and the Twin Peaks Unwrapped account replied with a "thumbs up" emoji.
Thanks.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Histeria wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:08 pm
Lynch once told Cahiers du Cinena that he didn't know how many episodes the show would end up being until we'll into the editing process. But surely the episode count is part of the series order contract? I don't see a scenario where Showtime are OK with not knowing how many episodes/hours they're actually buying until delivery day.
From what I recall, I think one thing that we at some point somehow knew was that Showtime basically gave Lynch free reign for up to 18 episodes. It could have been anywhere between 10 and 18 or something. I swear this was somehow confirmed. Perhaps Reindeer remembers, but I believe this was speculated to be what the dispute was all about - the freedom Lynch requires to dream on the spot, to stretch out scenes, etc., which required no fixed episode count.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I don't think you can put in a contract, every day's worth of shooting has to go the mile, and every shot scripted has to be included in the cut.

it's not a terribly big deal that a piece of coverage or a shot of the Giant in the red room was cut.
Carel Struyken probably got paid like 500 a day or something, CBS is a multi billion dollar company, they can afford it.

waste is a thing with performance and art. most every movie or TV show has some scenes that don't work out.

Blue Velvet had tons of stuff, Jeffrey being notified about his father, while away at college, etc that didn't fit in the end.

CBS/Showtime got a lot of mileage out of the shoot, 18 episodes is pretty big season for premium cable, a lot of shows are 8-10 these days.
Last edited by JackwithOneEye on Thu May 06, 2021 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I would put some weight into one of the guys from Unwrapped saying that actually. They’ve interviewed practically everyone involved with the show. Also David Lynch himself appeared on one of their watch parties not too long ago
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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LateReg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:20 pm
Histeria wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:08 pm
Lynch once told Cahiers du Cinena that he didn't know how many episodes the show would end up being until we'll into the editing process. But surely the episode count is part of the series order contract? I don't see a scenario where Showtime are OK with not knowing how many episodes/hours they're actually buying until delivery day.
From what I recall, I think one thing that we at some point somehow knew was that Showtime basically gave Lynch free reign for up to 18 episodes. It could have been anywhere between 10 and 18 or something. I swear this was somehow confirmed. Perhaps Reindeer remembers, but I believe this was speculated to be what the dispute was all about - the freedom Lynch requires to dream on the spot, to stretch out scenes, etc., which required no fixed episode count.
The following passage almost clears this up once and for all. But there's just enough Lynchian ambiguity to leave room for doubt:
The Showtime chief says he was out of the country when negotiations hit that difficult patch. Lynch wanted the flexibility to expand the length of the season, but he didn’t know exactly how many episodes he’d end up with. He hoped it would be possible to go longer than the 9 or 13 installments that had been discussed, but he ran into resistance from the network’s business affairs department.

“It didn’t fit into the box of how people are used to negotiating these kinds of deals,” Nevins says. “Once I understood what the issues were from the point of view of the filmmaker, I was like, ‘OK, we can figure that out.’ And we did — it turned out not to be very complicated to [resolve].”

Nevins and Levine went over to the director’s house. “Gary brought cookies,” Lynch recalls. And over baked goods and coffee, the three men hashed everything out.

Lynch, says Nevins, has a history of being responsible. “He said, ‘Give me the money; I will figure out how to apportion it properly.’ And he did,” Nevins says. (Levine says the cost of “Twin Peaks” is comparable to that of Showtime’s other high-end dramas.)

Asked for his side of the story, Lynch asks, “What did Showtime say?” Told their version, he signs off: “Basically, that’s it.” He says his relationship with the network ever since the cookie summit has been “solid gold.” (Treats never hurt: When he delivered cuts of the new season, he sent along doughnuts.)
https://variety.com/2017/tv/features/tw ... 202419020/

The specific number was a key point of contention and I assume a key pillar of the agreed contract. From my exposure to the industry it's cost per episode that orders are built on rather than overall budget. But it seems Twin Peaks is sold as a discreet deliverable – a season of television/film delivered independent of the process of producing it – where other shows' productions are subject to more encroachment by the distributor. Probably down to the unique deal Frost and Lynch struck with ABC that ensured the IP remained exclusively theirs.
JackwithOneEye wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:24 pm I don't think you can put in a contract, every day's worth of shooting has to go the mile, and every shot scripted has to be included in the cut.

it's not a terribly big deal that a piece of coverage or a shot of the Giant in the red room was cut.
Carel Struyken probably got paid like 500 a day or something, CBS is a multi billion dollar company, they can afford it.

waste is a thing with performance and art. most every movie or TV show has some scenes that don't work out.

Blue Velvet had tons of stuff, Jeffrey being notified about his father, while away at college, etc that didn't fit in the end.

CBS/Showtime got a lot of mileage out of the shoot, 18 episodes is pretty big season for premium cable, a lot of shows are 8-10 these days.
Sorry I should have made it clearer. I wasn't suggesting every scene had to make final cut. I meant with almost every single series or film order there are provisions that both stipulate conditions on the production itself and any output derived from it. There's no way JJ Abrams (just the first example that came to my head) could just claim some shots recorded on set weren't "part of the episode order" and then shop them off to Amazon Prime Video (if we assume, for the purposes of this analogy, that ABC had the same licencing deal for Lost that Showtime has for The Return).

It's possible the contract between Showtime and Lynch/Frost didn't have such provisions. But it was be highly idiosyncratic if so.
Last edited by Histeria on Thu May 06, 2021 12:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by LateReg »

JackwithOneEye wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:24 pm
waste is a thing with performance and art. most every movie or TV show has some scenes that don't work out.

Blue Velvet had tons of stuff, Jeffrey being notified about his father, while away at college, etc that didn't fit in the end.
Interesting you brought that up in relation to The Return. Lynch has stated that almost everything he shot made it into The Return, that "it just worked out" or something to that effect. He could have trimmed it down to 14 episodes if he wanted, but it wasn't in his plan. The difference with Blue Velvet, is that I believe it was stipulated that the film had to run only 2 hours, so Lynch was forced to make those kinds of decisions to fit a runtime. I think he totally wanted to avoid that with The Return, but then used almost all the footage anyway.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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There was definitely some minor stuff cut (the Fireman in the Red Room, a stray Audrey line you can see in the behind the scenes footage, etc.). But it does seem most everything was used. Lynch has eschewed enforced runtimes and has gone more and more maximalist since Mulholland. And yeah, I don’t buy the “theory” that there are major scenes sitting around somewhere “saved” for some future production. But there could be a few interesting little things that someday will pop up on a special edition rerelease or something.

Re: The episode count thing. David Nevins (big Showtime muckety-muck) discusses this in an interview for the book Room to Dream (a highly recommended read). The show was announced as nine episodes (I guess based on the length of the script). Nevins says Lynch refused to pin down a number, saying maybe thirteen. But he viewed it as a long movie, and refused to commit to an exact number/runtime until he got in the editing room. The Showtime execs couldn’t wrap their heads around this in terms of budgeting the thing. Because the script “looked” a certain length, they went off that and refused Lynch the budget he asked for. Lynch walked. Finally David Nevins intervened, and trusted Lynch that the final show would reflect the budget he was asking for. And by all accounts (including Nevins’ own), it did. After Lynch returned, the new announced episode count changed to “more than” nine. (EDIT: I see Histeria beat me to it with the Variety interview.)

I do recall the shot of a monitor showing the inside of the Palmer house, but I don’t recall what part of the house it showed.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Thu May 06, 2021 12:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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thedougpa wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:34 am I have a question, or two, about rumors surrounding the old "spoilers" thread that hopefully I can get answered here on an otherwise uneventful day. These are all memories from reading the thread daily and are lost to the great purge.

On the night of filming Richard and Carrie walking up to the Palmer House, was there an alternate scene shot where Grace Zabriski opens the door? I explicitly remember this being mentioned, long before anybody knew what the scene would be.

Following that thread, there was also a shot displayed on David Lynch's camera screen that had a POV from inside the Palmer House, possibly the upstairs bedroom. Was this ever explicitly confirmed?

These, of course, are related to the idea that David shot alternate scenes while on set for Season 3, tying into the 3A/3B rumors that Lynch was going to release a surprise season after S3. We also know the Giant was filmed in the Red Room.

An unrelated memory, but I'd like to get a solid answer to: I remember bystanders at the shoot mentioning that the extras in the Hit-and-Run Boy scene were not told by David Lynch what they were actually reacting to. Thus the awkward/strained reactions in that scene. Was this true? I've always longed for an answer to this. There are no answers in the partially-nuked spoilers thread.

Thanks Dugies.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk
Histeria wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:08 pm I would have thought Showtime/CBS would have put it in the contract that any time spent on production has to be used for the show they're being paid to make.

It seems odd they'd let Lynch spend production time and money on stuff not actually part of their order as a client. Same thing for speculation that claims Lynch is saving footage from The Return for future Twin Peaks installments. Not sure how CBS would feel about their very hard-fought financial package that Lynch held them hostage for actually contributed to a Netflix Original.

So while I can entertain rumours that they've been filming ad goc scenes since 2017 (because they'd be doing it on their own dime until a financing/distribution deal is struck with someone), I would be very surprised if CBS and Showtime didn't think to ensure production resources for The Return were all actually in service to the show they ordered.

Lynch once told Cahiers du Cinena that he didn't know how many episodes the show would end up being until we'll into the editing process. But surely the episode count is part of the series order contract? I don't see a scenario where Showtime are OK with not knowing how many episodes/hours they're actually buying until delivery day.

JackwithOneEye wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:24 pm I don't think you can put in a contract, every day's worth of shooting has to go the mile, and every shot scripted has to be included in the cut.

it's not a terribly big deal that a piece of coverage or a shot of the Giant in the red room was cut.
Carel Struyken probably got paid like 500 a day or something, CBS is a multi billion dollar company, they can afford it.

waste is a thing with performance and art. most every movie or TV show has some scenes that don't work out.

Blue Velvet had tons of stuff, Jeffrey being notified about his father, while away at college, etc that didn't fit in the end.

CBS/Showtime got a lot of mileage out of the shoot, 18 episodes is pretty big season for premium cable, a lot of shows are 8-10 these days.
I hope the scale pay they were paid is closer to 2,000-3,000 a day as I mentioned in another thread I think the TP cast were always criminally underpaid, but I know you weren't being literal.

I can't see Lynch purposefully filming scenes to hold back for a new season - he strikes me as too spontaneous and pure to do that, though I know he does plan things, it just doesn't feel like something he'd do, though he could have a lot of unused shots/angles, like he did with FWWM.

I know about the giant in the red room, but I don't think The Return will have the same amount of deleted scenes as FWWM or any of the other movies - it feels like they threw almost everything into it.

In terms of the night they shot the final scene, I remember a lot of speculation that Grace Zabriskie would open the door, but not that she was ever there/in the scene. In fact, I think it was confirmed she wasn't there (but I might be wrong about that). And I think there may have been talk about them maybe filming her opening the door later/somewhere else and cutting it in if she was the one who was meant to have opened the door, which we now know she wasn't. It was Mary Reber.
Last edited by Jonah on Thu May 06, 2021 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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from the BTS, it looks to me like Showtime/CBS got bang for their buck.
i dont think there's enough cutting room floor footage to make more episodes for Netflix if that's what you mean.

If DL is able to recycle that one shot of the Giant in the red room for Netflix, I dont think David Nevins at showtime is gonna
throw up any roaadblocks. I doubt he cares or remembers it.
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