Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?
Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:45 pm
a Twin Peaks and David Lynch Electrical Resource
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Uh huh. I recently watched the new interview from Z to A where she's moderator, and while it was overall good questions and good answers, there were two things that irked me:Mr. Reindeer wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:47 am McKenna gets even basic facts wrong, one senses that she never really watched the show, and the quotes are indeed slanted toward making Lynch the maestro despite his relatively limited involvement.
Didn’t she also ask some strange question about whether Laura’s promiscuity was sinful in some way? Maybe I’m just remembering the frumpy clothes question but I seem to recall something even more direct and bizarre.AXX°N N. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:23 am Uh huh. I recently watched the new interview from Z to A where she's moderator, and while it was overall good questions and good answers, there were two things that irked me:
One is she referred to the Laura on James' bike scene (the one that gets repeated in B&W in Part 17) as being from the first season, not FWWM, which seems like a really egregious mistake, given how cinematic the scene looks visually and how little of Laura's backstory is actually shown in season 1. In fact you could say season 1 operates off the lack of our witnessing those events, that that's literally its plot engine.
Two is she asked Sheryl Lee a really strange and, to me, highly offensive and insensitive question; "Was playing Maddy less fun than Laura? She was always wearing frumpy outfits, but Laura was always pretty hot." The fact that Laura as a character is a victim of abuse and exploitation and is constantly struggling with guilt and shame about her promiscuity makes this question totally off base to me in terms of granting dignity to the character. Maybe it's a joke and I'm taking it too seriously, but it truly bothered me.
I think my first impression of there being something supernatural was in the pilot, and not the international one. There's just a certain ominous feeling to it and things like the serial killer rites, while they could be profanely ritualistic, could easily be viewed as occult, especially things like "Fire Walk With Me" just have a spiritual vibe to them.Jonah wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:05 pm I had thought of Mike's monologue, from the international pilot and Episode 2. But it never really indicated that it was supernatural (until Episode 15 or so). I mean, maybe a little with "lived among the people" but even then it sounds more like they were serial killers, not supernatural. Even all the stuff about a magician and "two worlds", I mean, it sounds more lyrical than literal, like he's reciting a poem. The convenience store just sounded like a regular one. I don't think there's a strong indication of a supernatural origin in that speech - at that time at least, until later revelations.
The circle of candles and all the rest, the basement etc., was very standard serial killer tropes of the day in my opinon, and could all be dismissed as crazy behaviour and atmosphere, etc. Viewing it strictly in the context of those episodes, I mean - of course, once we see a clearer picture in later episodes, all of this stuff can be viewed differently, but at the time those revelations weren't there to paint those scenes n a supernatural lense. (Even the red room itself was pretty firmly ensconced as being "just a dream". The narrative even had Cooper experiencing it all as a dream - not the international pilot, but Episode 2.) Leland recognising the man from the picture yet no indication of aging might have given some pause - but then again maybe not, plus Leland was mostly being dismissed as pretty crazy at this point anyway, so he was very much an unreliable character.
I also got that impression, but I think maybe it was just an attempt to juggle the time given that it was a duo interview. I think it's just that here and there it wasn't as graceful as it could be.Mr. Reindeer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:53 am Something about McKenna’s attitude in general toward Sheryl in that filmed interview bugged me. It seemed like she was way more interested in Kyle. Whenever Sheryl answered a question, rather than responding to the answer as good interviewers do, McKenna would often just curtly pivot to something else (usually directed at Kyle). It felt a little dismissive to me. But like you, maybe I was reading too much into it. It just left me with a slightly irked feeling, even though as you say I overall really enjoyed it.
She does cover quite a bit of skin and her taste is less colorful than other characters, but style wise she was always my favorite next to Audrey.Brad D wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:38 am when did Maddy wear frumpy clothes? That question makes zero sense.
Room to Dream seems cool on the surface, but picking up a chapter, glancing through it and seeing so many *clearly* inaccurate statements one after the other was quite disheartening. Unfortunate to think many will read it as gospel and perpetuate the myths.
All the indications were in retrospect. (Like in The Sixth Sense, all the indications are that **spoiler alert*** Bruce Willis is a ghost, but for 99% of the viewing public, those clues only became obvious after the reveal.)eyeboogers wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:59 pmI don't know if I agree with there being "no indication". This is Mike's monologue from the pilot:Jonah wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:00 am I stll don't think it indicated he was supernatural though. Even the international pilot just had him as a drifter (who had killed with Mike) and was living in the basement of the hospital. There was no indication the convenience store or anything else was supernatural.
"Through the darkness of future's past, the magician longs to see. One chants out between two worlds... "Fire... walk with me." We lived among the people. I think you say, convenience store. We lived above it. I mean it like it is... like it sounds. I too have been touched by the devilish one. Tattoo on the left shoulder... Oh, but when I saw the face of God, I was changed. I took the entire arm off. My name is Mike. His name is Bob."
Then there was the whole humming sound thing, the circle of candles...It doesn't sound like the behavior of the average TV serial-killing-drifter to me.
There is another way a dream can solve a mystery other than it pointing to the supernatural.AXX°N N. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:22 pm I can't buy that most people were writing it off as "it's just a dream" when Cooper himself in-show is giving spiritual methods creedence, given the rock throwing, and just the idea that his dream could somehow be the source of progress in a real-world investigation. Many people I've watched with at some point way before even the Giant shows up felt they were being prompted to expect some kind of paranormal element, either minor or major. What I agree is absolutely impossible to predict is the idea of BOB as an invading entity, which is why Ep 14 is so shocking even if you're leaning in the mystic direction.
That's true and I don't discount that, the show seems to be hinting at many possibilities and Cooper doesn't seem strictly mystical, more open-minded and not liable to discount anything. But part of that is that he himself doesn't hand-wave it as strictly mundane.mtwentz wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 pmThere is another way a dream can solve a mystery other than it pointing to the supernatural.
Subconsciously, Cooper might notice something 'off' about Leland. But his conscious mind is unable to accept it. So it takes his dreams to sort it out, through symbolism, who the killer is.
That would have been shades of Suspicion, or whichever Hitchcock film had Gregory Peck naming the killer through dream symbolism.
I still prefer Twin Peaks as being open to interpretation: is BOB real or is he the personification of Leland's darker side? Of course, the moment Cooper stepped through the Red Curtains, that kind of blew any 'rational interpretation' out of the water.AXX°N N. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:41 pmThat's true and I don't discount that, the show seems to be hinting at many possibilities and Cooper doesn't seem strictly mystical, more open-minded and not liable to discount anything. But part of that is that he himself doesn't hand-wave it as strictly mundane.mtwentz wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 pmThere is another way a dream can solve a mystery other than it pointing to the supernatural.
Subconsciously, Cooper might notice something 'off' about Leland. But his conscious mind is unable to accept it. So it takes his dreams to sort it out, through symbolism, who the killer is.
That would have been shades of Suspicion, or whichever Hitchcock film had Gregory Peck naming the killer through dream symbolism.
For what it's worth, I'm mainly focusing on Bob as the supernatural element here -- that the murder itself is presented as supernatural. The discussion of when a viewer might have noticed the supernatural is based in part on a somewhat vague definition of the term, so I get what you're saying and admit that I'm limiting my focus to something more concrete. As far as the rest, dreams and visions and all that, I really believe that seeing the series in even a post X-Files world is different than seeing it prior...that whole familiarity with certain types of art thing. I can buy that some merely viewed Coop's dreams as something entirely separate from the real world without picking up on them being "literally" supernatural, but then again I admit that I'm speaking from a very literal, more basic point of view here, whereas you're thinking of it in a much more advanced, open-minded way. Still, as mtwentz alludes, I don't think that many average viewers would have believed that the early dream is necessarily anything more than a vision, but again I think that I'm just thinking of the word supernatural in a more literal way, and the more I think about it, the more it seems what I'm describing is indeed some form of supernatural. So again, I was mainly focusing on Bob as an inhabiting entity, which I'm glad to see we agree on, as that unexpectedness is indeed partly what makes that moment so effective.AXX°N N. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:22 pm I can't buy that most people were writing it off as "it's just a dream" when Cooper himself in-show is giving spiritual methods creedence, given the rock throwing, and just the idea that his dream could somehow be the source of progress in a real-world investigation. Many people I've watched with at some point way before even the Giant shows up felt they were being prompted to expect some kind of paranormal element, either minor or major. What I agree is absolutely impossible to predict is the idea of BOB as an invading entity, which is why Ep 14 is so shocking even if you're leaning in the mystic direction.