Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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AXX°N N.
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

Post by AXX°N N. »

LateReg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:32 pmFor what it's worth, I'm mainly focusing on Bob as the supernatural element here -- that the murder itself is presented as supernatural. The discussion of when a viewer might have noticed the supernatural is based in part on a somewhat vague definition of the term, so I get what you're saying and admit that I'm limiting my focus to something more concrete. As far as the rest, dreams and visions and all that, I really believe that seeing the series in even a post X-Files world is different than seeing it prior...that whole familiarity with certain types of art thing. I can buy that some merely viewed Coop's dreams as something entirely separate from the real world without picking up on them being "literally" supernatural, but then again I admit that I'm speaking from a very literal, more basic point of view here, whereas you're thinking of it in a much more advanced, open-minded way. Still, as mtwentz alludes, I don't think that many average viewers would have believed that the early dream is necessarily anything more than a vision, but again I think that I'm just thinking of the word supernatural in a more literal way, and the more I think about it, the more it seems what I'm describing is indeed some form of supernatural. So again, I was mainly focusing on Bob as an inhabiting entity, which I'm glad to see we agree on, as that unexpectedness is indeed partly what makes that moment so effective.
I can see where you're coming from regarding the cultural context aspect. Another thing worth thinking about is the fact that, were we to place ourselves in that time period, even as Lynch fans we'd be less inclined to believe the series would tend so heavily supernatural. Sure, Eraserhead is extremely surreal, but it comes across less as literally occult than it does symbolic. Then we have Elephant Man, a biopic & Blue Velvet, which is one of his most realistic works. Wild at Heart has some (vague) occult elements but you could chalk it up to voodoo as part of the regional setting, and then you've got Dune which is mystical but is closer to Star Wars mysticism than anything. It's only in a post Lost Highway, post Mulholland Dr. & Inland Empire world that Lynch's work is almost guaranteed to be metaphysical.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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JackwithOneEye
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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I was fairly surprised when the Giant sequence occurred in 1990 when it first aired, with the spotlight and the sound effects. I remember thinking DL had left his phantasmagorical tendencies behind him after Eraserhead to do more realistic films like The Elephant Man and Blue Velvet, and Dune had been a genre film. I had chalked up the e2 dream sequence to being just a dream, and maybe Sarah's vision in the pilot as far as he would go with it, but overall this was going to be a grounded in reality sort of series, that pushed the envelope like Blue Velvet had done, with quirky things like the brain dead body of the yellow man standing up and still reacting to sounds, but wouldn't step too far into otherworldly.

Bob's appearances in that S2 premiere episode at the tail end, when it aired, I thought maybe he was some sort of drifter or something, and when Leland said he saw him as a kid, seemed to confirm that for a moment. The huge buildup to 'Who Killed Laura Palmer ?" always made viewers like me think it must be someone who's name was in the opening titles, and I thought whoever this Bob guy is, was just some kind of red herring.

S14 was fairly shocking, but it did leave you wondering, if it was supernatural, or just Leland's shadow persona, which you can still take any way you want.
Last edited by JackwithOneEye on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Jonah
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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JackwithOneEye wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:04 am The huge buildup to 'Who Killed Laura Palmer ?" always made viewers like me think it must be someone who's name was in the opening titles, and I thought whoever this Bob guy is, was just some kind of red herring.
I'm fascinated by what people must have thought about who (or what) Bob was back in the day. Considering its a murder mystery and it seems to be answered even earlier on as being that this drifter did it, I had wondered did people think he was just a red herring and the real killer was yet to be revealed. So I imagine a lot of people were probably meant to think what you did. Or that there was more to the story somehow, like maybe someone else hired him.
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Audrey Horne
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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I forgot about the whole Who Shot Cooper cliffhanger. I mean I didn’t forget it, but how it was handled.

It was never addressed as a dangling still out there plot line. So I just assumed Leland shot him. Then months later (in real life) it comes back up out of the blue and I was like, “oh, that’s still a thing?” They winged that one, right? They decided much later that it coukd be Josie because Cooper “came here.”
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JackwithOneEye
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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yeah, I think I had thought maybe Bob was there at the murder, maybe he hit Jaques over the head but there was an actual killer of Laura was from the cast. Since Ronnette dreamt of him in the coma, that also made me think maybe he was homeless drifter and lived in the abandoned train cars etc, and maybe the real killer attacked him and got him out the way and he was dead too somewhere. Ronnette didnt really speak when she woke up, so it was sorta loose what Bob was up to in the train car. It was pretty clear when he climbed over the sofa towards Maddy he was a bad guy, and he wasn't a Home Alone type shady character who turned out benevolent.

I remember being in 7th grade and kids in school were like Bob is the killer, and I thought why have a national murder mystery guessing game if you just pull a killer out of the background who isnt in the regular cast, and my father who watched murder mysteries around the clock was like, nah, it's red herring, they always do this on TV.

the moment where you first saw Bob in the mirror with Leland, shocking stuff. I had considered Leland a few times, but Ray Wise's acting was so strong with the sadness, mourning, and grieving, jumping on the coffin, I thought they might be reluctant to chip at that or diminish it as partly guilt or shame or something.
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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Ha, that’s right. During the whole first season I kept saying, “oh, stop wasting time on the guy in the denim outfit, we all know it’s a misdirect.” And also stop going back to the murdered blond girl’s grieving family, it’s like a downer… stick to the whodunit suspects. You all think it’s Leo or Ben, but duh, it’s obviously Donna or Sheriff Truman as the big gotcha surprise.

And double Ha, I remembered Newsweek spoiled the killer was Bob for the second season premiere… but that he doesn’t exist. And Entertainment Weekly spoiled that Leland would die and the cast would be attending his wake the next episode.
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Jonah
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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Where were you both when I kept asking the "what did people think when Bob seemed to be revealed to be the killer"? A few weeks ago I kept asking that question earlier in this thread (and maybe in another one too). Now you've both pretty much answered it in two posts lol. Thanks for that also btw! :)
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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Jonah wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:10 pm Where were you both when I kept asking the "what did people think when Bob seemed to be revealed to be the killer"? A few weeks ago I kept asking that question earlier in this thread (and maybe in another one too). Now you've both pretty much answered it in two posts lol. Thanks for that also btw! :)
This person called the Leland twist (with help from TSDoLP): https://alttvtwinpeaks.com/ep08/1990100 ... bob-154648

There was also a theory that BOB was an element of Laura’s personality (also based on TSDoLP), and the “inhabiting spirit” theory was already floating around (although people didn’t seem too fond of the notion): https://alttvtwinpeaks.com/ep08/1990100 ... on)-154457

https://alttvtwinpeaks.com/ep08/1990100 ... ary-154706

It is interesting how little discussion there seems to have been about Bob following Episode 8, at least compared to the Giant, who seems to have inspired much more interest.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonah
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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Thanks for sharing more of those links - always interesting to see reactions from back in the day. I remember Bob scaring me a lot as a kid (the character still scares me!) but just feeling pretty accepting of him being a part of the show - seems like the rest of the audience just accepted him too.

Maybe because it was a quirky show to begin with, the dream in Episode 2, the Log Lady, etc. Though apart from the dream I think Bob was the first really out there thing the show did. Or maybe it was the Giant actually, whose introduction was suitably creepy and intriguing - though, yes, it is strange he garnered more reaction than Bob.

Perhaps some people also thought the end of Episode 8 was another dream like in Episode 2, an hallucination, but by the time he popped up in front of Maddy in Episode 9 and the fact that the show kept weaving him in to its narrative all the way up to the reveal in Episode 14, it really seemed clear he was more than that. For such an out there character, he seemed to be so easily accepted, though as Jack pointed out above, there were probably lots of more prosaic theories about him - being a hobo or someone in a train car who Ronette was misremembering. Maddy's vision is a lot harder to dismiss though, and Leland knowing him as a child.

Who/what did people think the Giant was? Another dream of Cooper's like the little man?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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I was thinking Bob initially was a Boo Radley sorta thing, he seems evil, but maybe just hangs out in train cars and seems scary, but he knows something/ or knew something, or maybe tried to protect Laura
or was killed by the killer.

Mike/One Armer I guess officially took us into supernatural territory that Bob was an 'inhabiting spirit' and the analogy with the parasite, and then I was thinking maybe Ben Horne was the host, because when Leland picks up the wanted poster in his office, and Ben said to Jerry 'please kill Leland' or something, which had been an episode or two earlier to the parasite reveal, but that still seemed very red herring-ish

I agree, Donna or Sheriff Truman seemed the most logical in Agatha Christie type stuff. They give you a pile of suspicious people with dark secrets, all up to no good and hiding stuff, and then it's revealed to be some wonderful person. Broadchurch went by that.
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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There was some debate about whether the Giant was real or a dream like the Red Room seemed to be. Again, people seemed resistant to the idea of the supernatural invading the show. One person even theorized that he was an alien (presaging the Blue Book/TSHoTP stuff!). People seemed most interested in his clues.
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Jonah
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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JackwithOneEye wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:21 pm I agree, Donna or Sheriff Truman seemed the most logical in Agatha Christie type stuff.
Because they were the least likely suspects?

I've never seen Broadchurch but I've heard good things. There.Is.Just.Too.Much.To.Watch (And Read/Write). :x
Mr. Reindeer wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:24 pm People seemed most interested in his clues.
Which is a testament also to how great and atmospheric the show was and how it revelled in its own strangeness, that the narrative could introduce really out there stuff but also work it into the narrative in such a way that it became intriguing rather than just about the weirdness.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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yeah, I still think the Giant may just be a stand-in for instinct or intuition personified, and not really supernatural.

The scenes with him and the waiter in the S2 premiere really made me love Twin Peaks when it first aired. I thought the pilot was the greatest thing ever made for TV, but S1 at times felt like
just a network TV show, along the lines of St Elsewhere or something. All the stuff with the waiter though felt like pure heroin David Lynch.
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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I feel like in most Agatha Christie stuff like Poirot, or if you watch like Foyle's War,Midsummer Murders or whatever, they give you red herrings for awhile, dark people doing dirty, incriminating stuff, and then it's, someone who seemed wonderful and helpful to the investigation.
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Re: Why exactly did ABC treat the show so badly?

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JackwithOneEye wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:34 pm yeah, I still think the Giant may just be a stand-in for instinct or intuition personified, and not really supernatural.

The scenes with him and the waiter in the S2 premiere really made me love Twin Peaks when it first aired. I thought the pilot was the greatest thing ever made for TV, but S1 at times felt like
just a network TV show, along the lines of St Elsewhere or something. All the stuff with the waiter though felt like pure heroin David Lynch.
Agreed - the opening moments of Episode 8 is one of my all-time favourite scenes, and I think many fans agree that the "real" Twin Peaks only starts with Season 2. Season 1 gets a lot of praise, and S2 is still to this day sh*t on a lot, but S1 did feel very conventional at times like you say, delightfully quirky and very atmospheric with its own wonderful charm in a way that made it so unlike anything else on TV, yet also prone to given in to convention and feeling like a nighttime soap opera - which was the point, of course, and part of what made it so great, but S2 took more risks and really pushed the boundaries a lot more. For me, S1's standout moments are the gritty realism of the PIlot, the amazing dream sequence in Episode 2, and there's a lot of wonderful charm and mise-en-scene, but whenever I rewatch it I'm impatient to get to the next season.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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