World of Blue - Archived Forum 2007-2022

boske wrote:

Mr. Reindeer wrote:All that being said, I do love your idea that Audrey’s dream/hallucination involved like twenty random musical acts which she imagined in full.

That for sure would explain why Jacques Renault was there, none of it was real. If we start off from that premise, we can easily identify what scenes and plots are taking place in the dreamworld.

P.S. Maybe it was Jean-Michel Renault and not Jacques, but by the same token we could have had Wayland Palmer sipping a drink.

Also worth noting that in the books (and Pilot outtakes), a Jake Morrissey owns the Roadhouse, which conflicts with Jean Michel’s claim that the Renaults owned it for 57 years.

Did Audrey ever meet Jacques, though? I don’t think so.

Audrey probably met or knew of Renaults while back (yes, this would not hold up in court). Renaults may have used Morrisey as a front man or the other way around, who knows. What is a mystery is whether Audrey woke up from coma at that point (part 17?), or years prior to that, that is not clear and the original script would have helped here, as it apparently envisioned a different role for her.

boske wrote:=Renaults may have used Morrisey as a front man or the other way around, who knows.

Well now, here’s a man who wants to get right past continuity errors.
Kinda anxious to get past continuity errors, are ya?

Quite the opposite, I never knew who owned the place. If you had asked me, I'd probably have said Ben Horne...

boske wrote:Audrey probably met or knew of Renaults while back (yes, this would not hold up in court). Renaults may have used Morrisey as a front man or the other way around, who knows. What is a mystery is whether Audrey woke up from coma at that point (part 17?), or years prior to that, that is not clear and the original script would have helped here, as it apparently envisioned a different role for her.

I don’t know. I don’t get the sense that Audrey was involved with the seamy underbelly of Twin Peaks the way Laura was, so she wouldn’t really have a reason to know the Renaults. She might have seen Jacques tending bar at the Roadhouse, but I don’t believe we ever saw Audrey at the Roadhouse on the original show. (It is a little alarming how many high school students hang out at a bar and everyone seems OK with it!)

I believe in the original script, Audrey owns a hair salon and gets robbed by Richard (the scene that was inherited by Sylvia when Fenn refused to do it). All the stuff we saw was envisioned by Lynch later on as a totally different beast. I don’t think the original script would lend much clarity.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:

boske wrote:Audrey probably met or knew of Renaults while back (yes, this would not hold up in court). Renaults may have used Morrisey as a front man or the other way around, who knows. What is a mystery is whether Audrey woke up from coma at that point (part 17?), or years prior to that, that is not clear and the original script would have helped here, as it apparently envisioned a different role for her.

I don’t know. I don’t get the sense that Audrey was involved with the seamy underbelly of Twin Peaks the way Laura was, so she wouldn’t really have a reason to know the Renaults. She might have seen Jacques tending bar at the Roadhouse, but I don’t believe we ever saw Audrey at the Roadhouse on the original show.
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Audrey appeared with Shelly and Donna at the Roadhouse to discuss the mysterious invite sent by Earle (season 2/episode 23). And while Jacques Renault was no longer around, I suppose we could imagine another Renault hanging about the premises.

This might be a shallow observation, but the 'Bosomy Woman' character that unlocks Jeffries' door for Mr. C gives me a Mrs. Tremond vibe.

Cappy wrote:This might be a shallow observation, but the 'Bosomy Woman' character that unlocks Jeffries' door for Mr. C gives me a Mrs. Tremond vibe.

I do not think that is shallow at all (it had crossed my mind too once). But if it is true, and keeping in mind that a Tremond is at the door in part 18, it would point to some link between Tremonds and doors, more precisely the doors between two worlds: the ordinary one and the dream one ("one chants between two worlds..."). And remember that the elder Tremond gave Laura a framed painting in FWWM that apparently lead her to the lodge, or above the convenience store (the wallpaper motif in the painting is almost identical to that that we see when Mr. C goes to the Dutchman's).

I'd have to go back and rewatch seasons 1 and 2, but wasn't there a scene with elder Tremond answering the door for Donna while she was serving Meals on Wheels?

boske wrote:

Cappy wrote:This might be a shallow observation, but the 'Bosomy Woman' character that unlocks Jeffries' door for Mr. C gives me a Mrs. Tremond vibe.

I do not think that is shallow at all (it had crossed my mind too once). But if it is true, and keeping in mind that a Tremond is at the door in part 18, it would point to some link between Tremonds and doors, more precisely the doors between two worlds: the ordinary one and the dream one ("one chants between two worlds..."). And remember that the elder Tremond gave Laura a framed painting in FWWM that apparently lead her to the lodge, or above the convenience store (the wallpaper motif in the painting is almost identical to that that we see when Mr. C goes to the Dutchman's).

I'd have to go back and rewatch seasons 1 and 2, but wasn't there a scene with elder Tremond answering the door for Donna while she was serving Meals on Wheels?

This is definitely interesting (and great to see the conversation coming back to the Tremonds, as much as I’ve enjoyed reading all these thoughts!).

The Tremonds never open the door for Donna. After she knocks, Mrs. Tremond says: “Enter!” Which is still interesting to think about, in light of the Tremonds infiltrating other people’s homes and what the rules are. And of course, the idea of “home” is a major theme in TP, starting with the Palmer home in the Pilot, and particularly in FWWM and TR.

And the painting they give her in FWWM prominently features a door which Laura walks through. Whose home is the room with the flowered wallpaper, I wonder?

Well, as far as door space is concerned, look at Cardea, she looks closest to what we see at the Dutchman's. Overall, that would place Tremonds into category of Liminal deities. Looking at these characters from the perspective we just mentioned, shows Dougie's problems with revolving and sliding doors in quite a different light.

Mr. Reindeer wrote: And the painting they give her in FWWM prominently features a door which Laura walks through. Whose home is the room with the flowered wallpaper, I wonder?

I assume that the space with the flowered wallpaper in FWWM is the same as the dark realm Mr. C visits above the convenience store in S3. And MIKE claims that he and BOB lived in that place during Cooper's dream in the original series ("a convenience store -- we lived above it"). Maybe I'm looking too literally at some of the information though.

Last night I rewatched the initial Tremonds scene where they encounter Donna. I was hoping that the set design might yield some interesting clues or insight into the Tremonds' nature, but there wasn't much there. That space resembles a guest room that is never/rarely used and doubles as some sort of storage area -- the chair that Pierre sits in blocks a dresser. There are a bunch of framed portraits and paintings on the wall, but it's too hard to make them out. Creamed corn as a motif is introduced in this scene, but beyond that and the Tremonds themselves, not much else is established.

Looking beyond what's on screen for a moment, it's interesting to think about the conceptual development of the Tremonds. Mrs. Tremond begins as a bedridden meals on wheels recipient with a kooky grandson, then was some mystical illusion had by Donna, then she is walking around in FWWM with the spirit world characters. Then she is in S3 as potentially three different characters (Alice Tremond, Junkie Mom, Bosomy Woman). I wonder if during the Tremonds first appearance there was any thought about making them spirits along the lines of BOB and the Giant? Just with her being bedridden it seems like Lynch/Frost might have initially conceived of her as a 'real world' character, but with ties to otherworldly-ness similar to someone like the Log Lady. And given how rushed and hastily thrown together episode 16 always feels, there is no telling where the genesis of the replacement Tremond lies. It could've been Lynch's idea all along, or a case of Frost/Peyton/Engels trying to fit one of Lynch's spontaneous inspirations into an overall coherent narrative. Or just maybe Frances Bay was busy filming something else that week -- she seemed to be constantly working most of her professional life.

I don't know, but when I watch their first appearance, I don't see much of what the Tremonds later became. But then again, I guess we could say that about a lot of things on this show.

In my initial post, I talked a little about the evolution of the characters behind the scenes. It definitely feels like in the original Ep 9 script (as well as TSDoLP), they’re just slightly eccentric mortals. Lynch added some element of the supernatural when he shot Peyton’s script, and then I think only fully committed to making them spirits in FWWM.

It’s also curious to me why Austin didn’t play the grandson in FWWM. It’s one of the very rare recasts in the series, and only a year went by from Ep 9 to FWWM. I can’t imagine Austin grew so much that he could no longer play the role (I believe he was 10 at the time of FWWM).

Mr. Reindeer wrote:In my initial post, I talked a little about the evolution of the characters behind the scenes. It definitely feels like in the original Ep 9 script (as well as TSDoLP), they’re just slightly eccentric mortals. Lynch added some element of the supernatural when he shot Peyton’s script, and then I think only fully committed to making them spirits in FWWM.

Ah, I had forgotten your initial post! It's a very thorough write-up of the characters.

I suppose another possibility about the Tremonds is that they are humans that can exist alongside the spirits, sort of like how MIKE/Philip Gerard seems to. Perhaps they were once possessed by The Jumping Man in some sense, but became severed from his influence and now occupy some sort of middle ground. Maybe when The Jumping Man takes them over, the bedridden Mrs. Tremond can walk fine and Pierre wears a mask.

But there is just as much evidence that The Jumping Man has been mixed up with Sarah Palmer since the 50s.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:It’s also curious to me why Austin didn’t play the grandson in FWWM. It’s one of the very rare recasts in the series, and only a year went by from Ep 9 to FWWM. I can’t imagine Austin grew so much that he could no longer play the role (I believe he was 10 at the time of FWWM).

Yeah, I've wondered about that myself. I don't have much to add, other than that I love that trading card of him holding the flaming book. It's a shame the character never got more screen time than he did.

Cappy wrote:

Mr. Reindeer wrote: And the painting they give her in FWWM prominently features a door which Laura walks through. Whose home is the room with the flowered wallpaper, I wonder?

I assume that the space with the flowered wallpaper in FWWM is the same as the dark realm Mr. C visits above the convenience store in S3. And MIKE claims that he and BOB lived in that place during Cooper's dream in the original series ("a convenience store -- we lived above it"). Maybe I'm looking too literally at some of the information though.

To me it felt clear that Lynch was depicting something that was mentioned in Ephesians 6:12.

boske wrote:

Cappy wrote:

Mr. Reindeer wrote: And the painting they give her in FWWM prominently features a door which Laura walks through. Whose home is the room with the flowered wallpaper, I wonder?

I assume that the space with the flowered wallpaper in FWWM is the same as the dark realm Mr. C visits above the convenience store in S3. And MIKE claims that he and BOB lived in that place during Cooper's dream in the original series ("a convenience store -- we lived above it"). Maybe I'm looking too literally at some of the information though.

To me it felt clear that Lynch was depicting something that was mentioned in Ephesians 6:12.

Can you expand on that? We know Eraserhead was partly inspired by a Bible quote, and he tried to recreate that when he got stuck on INLAND EMPIRE by reading the Bible, so it’s not out of the realm of possible. I don’t see the connection though in this instance.

I don’t take the “flowered wallpaper room” as being literally above the convenience store. I think the convenience store, flower room and staircase, and motel are all separate otherworldly locations, but you can access them through each other. I still think the room we see in FWWM where the spirits meet is the true “above the convenience store” space Mike references (which also doesn’t seem to physically exist in our world).