Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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N. Needleman wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:
I don't think so, no. I think Cooper and Diane very, very clearly cross over into Cooper's altered timeline in part 18, after he goes back to 1989.
Do you think, or do you think it's a third timeline altogether? Twin Peaks and the Palmer house are different. But Sarah clearly means something to Carrie. How do you guys reckon Laura became Carrie?
I think it's the timeline Cooper made with his hero bullshit. The universe reacted violently to Laura not dying and created a warped reality with all new people. Cooper and Diane should exist in that world too, but instead she's Linda and he should be Richard.

I think Carrie is a sort of fucked-up reconstruction or echo of the original Laura Palmer thanks to Cooper (and possibly Judy's) meddling. She's not quite right and prone to savage violence. I don't know if Carrie consciously knows anything about Sarah or the Palmers - it may be a subconscious reaction.
Ah yeah, the universe reacting badly fits the foreshadowing on Hastings' "website" as per the Reddit post.

Y'know, on a finale rewatch this is the first time I think I've ever been kind of annoyed with Coop's character... don't get me wrong, I love that character, but his hero complex Achilles heel is sort of irritating. On the one hand, it's like you of course want him to save Laura and save the day; on the other, it's kind of like... get over yourself? I dunno. People are complex and have many sides and season 3 does such a good job doing that, especially with the Cooper character.

Sorry to cross fandoms here, but Coop in the finale has all the bad qualities of a Gryffindor in Harry Potter, kind of overly sure himself, needs to be the knight in shining armour, kind of overly meddlesome. (I actually always get Gryffindor on those stupid Sorting Hat tests though so who knows what that all says about me...)
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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If people start hating on Dale after this then all of this is an abject failure.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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vicksvapor77 wrote:
Hester Prynne wrote:
He is trying to find his mother. Judy is his mother, but he doesn't know which form she inhabits. The coordinates lead to Judy, who has inhabited Sarah Palmer. I think that is why we see the Palmer House when Mr. C tries to get there through the White Lodge, but the Fireman intervenes and sends him to the Sheriff's Dept instead to be killed. Sarah Palmer/Judy is heard mourning off camera and then visciously attacks Laura's picture because her son, Bob, has died, and Laura played a part in his demise and lives while he does not. She then seeks vengeance by banishing Laura to a different existence. The Fireman sends Coop and Diane to bring her back - I don't know how Diane plays into this - but Judy's power still reigns. This is my best guess!
This makes some sense to me! But didn't we see Mr. C looking at his phone that lead him to the gold circle? Meaning the coordinates led him there, not the Palmer house, right? And what about tulpa Diane sending him the full coordinates and saying "I hope this works"? Was she helping trap him? If so, how did she know to and why?

In your eyes, does the ending undo the entirety of the original series and all of this season up until Cooper goes back to save Laura? That's my biggest issue with it all so far. I don't want to revisit the original series or even this season and realize it all means nothing in the end. What a slap in the face and disservice to the original beautiful and haunting story.
I'm a little confused on the coordinates, as well, so my thought was he could only access Judy through the White Lodge for some reason or that he never received the correct coordinates in the first place - Jack Rabbit's palace was maybe a trap, as well? When Diane says something like, 'Oh, Coop, I hope this works,' maybe she sent Mr. C to Jack Rabbit's palace hoping he could be stopped. I don't know how she would know these coordinates, though, unless it's connected to her creation as a tulpa. Why would Albert have given her the correct coordinates?

I don't know if it undoes the entirety of the original series or not. I still can't decide if we are living inside a dream as was explicitly stated by the Coop face or if this just an epic battle between good and evil that takes place in different timelines and realities and the shifting of timelines, reality, and characters is a way of balancing good and evil. I also feel like this is not the first time Coop has done this as he tells the characters in the Sheriff's station that a lot would change and then there is 2-5-3, time and time again and "10 being the number of completion." I think the characters we know and love still exist in one of many timelines/realities, but Coop has completed his task of restoring order in this world - or so he thinks. I think if there is a Season 4, it could very well be about Coop trying to repair the Twin Peaks timeline that Judy altered by banishing Laura from existence.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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lotjx2 wrote:If people start hating on Dale after this then all of this is an abject failure.
Nah, I'll always love Coop (points to avatar). But I'm not against examining his or any other character's shortcomings. He was essentially a flaw-free character who could do no wrong up until the Windom Earle arc where his backstory and indiscretions are fleshed out which make him feel more like an actual human.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by Cooperscoffeecup »

yaxomoxay wrote:
Agent327 wrote: There wont be a season four because there is no financial foundation for
And you know this... how?

At any rate CBS and Showtime disagree with you. It was a financial success, so there is enough financial foundation


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Would that view have changed given the reception to the final two hours?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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N. Needleman wrote:I think it's the timeline Cooper made with his hero bullshit. The universe reacted violently to Laura not dying and created a warped reality with all new people. Cooper and Diane should exist in that world too, but instead she's Linda and he should be Richard.

I think Carrie is a sort of fucked-up reconstruction or echo of the original Laura Palmer thanks to Cooper (and possibly Judy's) meddling. She's not quite right and prone to savage violence. I don't know if Carrie consciously knows anything about Sarah or the Palmers - it may be a subconscious reaction.
Wait, now you think Laura didn't die after all in the original timeline? Honestly, I think to come to terms with this finale, I need to feel that the original series, movie and majority of this season weren't just eradicated from existence.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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i still think josie is related to the lodges and judy. wasnt judy supposed to be her twin sister. i dont think josie being the first thing we ever saw from twin peaks wasnt relevant
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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A few random thoughts:

Has anyone noticed/pointed out that Diane looks like she's literally a walking embodiment of the Red Room? Fiery red hair, black top, black and white nails? What do we take from this?

5-3-0 add up to 8, which is the infinity symbol. Certainly this is relevant with Cooper and Diane "crossing the threshold" if you will?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by Hester Prynne »

ThumbsUp wrote:
Hester Prynne wrote:
Firewalkwithme91 wrote:
Your guess is as good as mine. However, for some reason the scene where Mr. C shows Darya the card in episode 2 has always stuck in my mind throughout this whole run whenever I saw Mr. C investigating coordinates. It feels like his overall goal is to find that thing on the card which we assume is the Experiment.
He is trying to find his mother. Judy is his mother, but he doesn't know which form she inhabits. The coordinates lead to Judy, who has inhabited Sarah Palmer. I think that is why we see the Palmer House when Mr. C tries to get there through the White Lodge, but the Fireman intervenes and sends him to the Sheriff's Dept instead to be killed. Sarah Palmer/Judy is heard mourning off camera and then visciously attacks Laura's picture because her son, Bob, has died, and Laura played a part in his demise and lives while he does not. She then seeks vengeance by banishing Laura to a different existence. The Fireman sends Coop and Diane to bring her back - I don't know how Diane plays into this - but Judy's power still reigns. This is my best guess!
Yeah, I think you nailed it. But again, the most glaring weakness story-wise for me is Diane. Why does Diane go with him on the final journey? Because they were both trapped for 25 years and made the plan? In that case, I still wish they would've incorporated Audrey, as her scenario was the same as Diane's.
I'm with you on wishing Diane had been Audrey, but I think you are right - they have been trapped together for 25 years. It could have just as easily been Audrey trapped in the lodge with him for 25 years, too, with the explosion, coma, a visit from Mr. C. I wonder if the reception to the finale would have been different if it had been Audrey as opposed to Diane, but as to why her character was chosen for this role, only DKL and Frost know. My guess is they had a longer friendship/working relationship than Coop and Audrey, and Coop poured out his soul to her all the time on the taperecorder, so maybe she seemed like the logical compatriot for this journey.

As to why she is there, and it just isn't Coop alone, I'm not sure. I got the sense from their conversation driving towards the electrical wires that they had done this before. When Coop asked Diane if she remembered everything in the Sheriff's station, it seemed to have more weight to it than just her remembering being stuck in the lodge. Was Twin Peaks just a visit on their journey, or do they have a plan like you said and are stuck inside some of time loop trying to save Laura?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by N. Needleman »

vicksvapor77 wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I think it's the timeline Cooper made with his hero bullshit. The universe reacted violently to Laura not dying and created a warped reality with all new people. Cooper and Diane should exist in that world too, but instead she's Linda and he should be Richard.

I think Carrie is a sort of fucked-up reconstruction or echo of the original Laura Palmer thanks to Cooper (and possibly Judy's) meddling. She's not quite right and prone to savage violence. I don't know if Carrie consciously knows anything about Sarah or the Palmers - it may be a subconscious reaction.
Wait, now you think Laura didn't die after all in the original timeline?
No, I think she did. Cooper just made a new timeline and physically crossed over into it with Diane. I think the original TP universe is still right where he left it, minus him and Diane (and I think also the post-FWWM Laura who was in the White Lodge, who IMO Dale ripped out of there and into his new timeline with his well-intentioned clueless meddling). I think the last anyone saw of Coop in the original timeline is when he went through that door in the Great Northern.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by yaxomoxay »

Cooperscoffeecup wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
Agent327 wrote: There wont be a season four because there is no financial foundation for
And you know this... how?

At any rate CBS and Showtime disagree with you. It was a financial success, so there is enough financial foundation


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Would that view have changed given the reception to the final two hours?
Nah. It's not that Showtime didn't know what was going to happen in the last two hours. And many fans want answers. Some of the disappointed will watch, and virtually all the professional reviewers are saying that the finale is the best thing ever (or close to it), so they will push if another season is announced.
I think it's really up to MF and DKL.


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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by Ashok »

vicksvapor77 wrote:In your eyes, does the ending undo the entirety of the original series and all of this season up until Cooper goes back to save Laura? That's my biggest issue with it all so far. I don't want to revisit the original series or even this season and realize it all means nothing in the end. What a slap in the face and disservice to the original beautiful and haunting story.
I've been thinking about this over and over again all day. I don't think --- based on how the show is written --- that anything from Season 1+2+FWWM is invalidated. I think too many people read too much into certain aspects of the dreaming just because of how Mulholland Drive and Lost Highway were written. But Twin Peaks isn't those films, it's always been a bit more grounded and I don't see any evidence that Part 18 is any different.

I think Part 18 fits pretty seamlessly with Season 1+2+FWWM using fairly straightforward timetravel. If Season 1+2+FWWM+3.1-17 is the prime timeline and time runs linearly thru Point A to Point B (diagram below), Cooper returns to Point A when he enters the door in the basement of the Great Northern. After he saves Laura from being killed by Leland, she still cannot "live" as that would create a paradox so she simply ceases to exist and is translocated to a Point E. Cooper returns to point B and meets Diane again but Laura is nowhere to be found. Events should be different in this timeline considering Pete never found Laura's body, but Laura still disappeared and the timeline is close enough to assume Cooper always had a reason to travel to Twin Peaks in 1989 and switched places with Mr. C.

Or perhaps time flows more like a layer cake and Point A to B are fully intact even after Coop saves Laura, and the timeline where Pete doesn't find the body is a new Timeline 2 that now spans a new set of points C and D. In which case everything we've seen from Season 1+2+FWWM+3.1-17 would have still happened, but Cooper is just viewing events from a new vantage point in a second timeline where Laura no longer shares his same plane of existence.

Either way, whether Cooper travels from

Point A -> Point B -> Point A -> Point B
or
Point A -> Point B -> Point C -> Point D

in either case the events from the prime timeline should remain mostly if not fully intact. And Laura should always end up getting translocated to Point E. This would bring us to Part 18 where Cooper and Diane begin their search for Point E and locate it by travelling 430 miles from some location. This is where they enter an alternate reality and start to merge with another set of doppelgängers, Richard and Linda. Perhaps THIS reality was willed into existence from a dream... or maybe it's just another timeline that is accessible through a thin spot in the world from the "fire" from the Atomic Bomb. What happens next is a great mystery but I have to believe that everything that happened happened. The way the show is written, at least, my personal take is that the final hour isn't David Lynch retconning away a beloved show as much as it's him taking Season 1+2's golden goose, Laura Palmer, and re-calibrating her as the central mystery once again. In a circular manner, the ending acts as a sort of mirror to how Cooper's 25 year journey originally began.



S1+2+FWWM+3.1 - 17 TL: A ----------------------------------- B (Laura dies; Coop visits TP)
3.17 Timeline (Option 1): A ----------------------------------- B (Laura is erased; Coop visits TP)
3.17 Timeline (Option 2): C ----------------------------------- D (Laura is erased; Coop visits TP)
3.18 Timeline: Point E (Laura exists as Carrie Page)
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by vicksvapor77 »

N. Needleman wrote:No, I think she did. Cooper just made a new timeline and physically crossed over into it with Diane. I think the original TP universe is still right where he left it, minus him and Diane (and I think also the post-FWWM Laura who was in the White Lodge, who IMO Dale ripped out of there and into his new timeline with his well-intentioned clueless meddling). I think the last anyone saw of Coop in the original timeline is when he went through that door in the Great Northern.
I am trying to make sense of Laura saying "I am dead, yet I live" and her being sucked out of the Red Room. Seems the same screams were heard when she was "sucked" out from Cooper trying to save her life in 1989? So confusing.

Also, what does everyone make of Ray being a 'paid informant' who told Cole (through Jeffries?) that Mr. C was looking for coordinates? How does this line up with anything we've seen? Cole and co. were shocked to find out about Mr. C in South Dakota. And then you add to that the weirdness of Ray receiving the owl cave ring from a guard?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by asmahan »

vicksvapor77 wrote:
Also, what does everyone make of Ray being a 'paid informant' who told Cole (through Jeffries?) that Mr. C was looking for coordinates? How does this line up with anything we've seen? Cole and co. were shocked to find out about Mr. C in South Dakota. And then you add to that the weirdness of Ray receiving the owl cave ring from a guard?
This caught me off guard too. The FBI crew also seemed ignorant Ray and Daria's rather coldblooded murder of Betty the Secretary, at least by part 9.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by cgs027 »

vicksvapor77 wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:No, I think she did. Cooper just made a new timeline and physically crossed over into it with Diane. I think the original TP universe is still right where he left it, minus him and Diane (and I think also the post-FWWM Laura who was in the White Lodge, who IMO Dale ripped out of there and into his new timeline with his well-intentioned clueless meddling). I think the last anyone saw of Coop in the original timeline is when he went through that door in the Great Northern.
I am trying to make sense of Laura saying "I am dead, yet I live" and her being sucked out of the Red Room. Seems the same screams were heard when she was "sucked" out from Cooper trying to save her life in 1989? So confusing.

Also, what does everyone make of Ray being a 'paid informant' who told Cole (through Jeffries?) that Mr. C was looking for coordinates? How does this line up with anything we've seen? Cole and co. were shocked to find out about Mr. C in South Dakota. And then you add to that the weirdness of Ray receiving the owl cave ring from a guard?
Well, if we go with the idea Laura still dies, it's possible that the moment she is sucked out of lodge (and presumably out to Odessa in some alternate reality), is the same moment she lost contact with Cooper's hand in the woods and effectively ended up back where she would have been prior to Cooper's intervention. Since lodge time is all f'd up, Cooper is in there to witness this, while he ends up being the reason for her getting sucked out in the first place.

Maybe?
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