Differing Views on The Return

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
7
30%
More disappointed.
5
22%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
1
4%
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
1
4%
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
2
9%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
1
4%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
2
9%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
1
4%
I now love The Return completely.
1
4%
Other - explain in comments.
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23
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AXX°N N.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

Brad D wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:07 pm The Roadhouse booth chats
These are my favorite of the ones you listed. They're what I take as "Inland Empire mode" Lynch, brief scenes that act as microcosms. I have a strong preference for literature/film that is fragmented and vignette in nature (it's why IE is my favorite of his films). I especially like the booth chat about the encounter with the uncle--two characters talking about something eerie and reality-distorting without actually seeing any of it, like the story told by the visitor at the beginning of IE or the retelling of the dream/dreamlike experience of Nastassja Kinski's character in the deleted scenes. There's something hypnotic and dreamy about it. Overall, I find the booth chats extremely important to the season and that they give color and a sense of the town as character, and I wish the original series utilized the bar space in this way or just leaned more into vignettes. The Pilot was a series of free-flowing vignettes that never settled on one character in particular, and the Pilot script even moreso. FWWM returns to this feeling of fragmentation, and again, its script even moreso. And just like Cooper doesn't even show up until quite a ways into the Pilot, same for Laura in FWWM. We never see the Principal from the Pilot again, same as we never see the Deer Meadow Sheriff again.Things grow, fall apart, and branch out at their own pace instead of residing in conventional plots. My favorite thing about S3 is that it actually retained this quality for once and leaned into a fragmented, free-flowing style. I think the original series lost something with a lot of potential by settling on a concrete, stable cast of regulars, as much as I like how some of that turned out.
Brad D wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:07 pm Ashley Judd
I liked her acting in the role, and I love her scene with Ben when they're listening for the sound. The throughline of the subplot between her and Ben is interesting enough, and worth it for that one scene. I find it interesting we don't see more of her, and that she's put in a minor limbo where it's unsure whether Ben has crossed the line or not. The one scene with her husband feels uncomfortable and realistic in a way that I'm not sure I've seen anywhere else; I know from my own life the neurosis that can occur when taking after an extremely ill dependent, and that this has burdens that erode you and even can, at some points, transform you into a nasty person. I don't agree whatsoever with estimations that this scene was cruel or cynical; to my mind, cynical would be to pretend sickness can't embitter the sufferer and the carer. I find that to be a similar trend with many choices in the Return; they seem real to me, and I'm glad they're explored.
Brad D wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:07 pmDr. Amp’s rants
They're funny, and I find it odd when people call them purely political rants and dislike them on that premise, because I find the premise false. There's what feels like legitimate social grievance, sure, but it's also somewhat satirizing the modern detachment/constant engagement with politics that everyone experiences from their living rooms. The idea that Jacoby has developed into a basement pundit that characters like Nadine watches is ridiculous, hard to swallow, and not what anyone would have penned for those characters. But that's exactly how reality feels, and how it feels when I hear my parents regurgitating propagandic talking points. Reality defies and people have changed. It's also surprising that Dr. Amp is more or less satirizing/winking at both Lynch and Frost, given that his shovel schtick can be read as a dig (pardon the pun) at TM, despite Lynch truly believing in it 100%, and at Frost's vitriolic armchair tweeting. Why it works for me is a combination of the above; it's layered and doesn't feel like a cheap excuse to inject actual political takes into the show, but is more about the general trend in society that makes that almost obligatory for media nowadays. I also find the thesis as I see it behind the snake oil quality of his racket interesting, because it has a positive causal effect on Nadine. Self-help is literally BS, but it can help people because it's not really about the truth of anything--things seldom are. That's a balanced take that seems idiosyncratic and legitimately subversive compared to the usual potshots.

Brad D wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:07 pmFrank’s Wife
I'm aware many take this as misogynistic, but I don't think it's any more misogynistic than the existence of Brad is misandrist, as if Brad is somehow speaking for all men. I know women in real life who are mentally ill and where it manifests as incessant, projected hostility. Is there an argument there for the need to treat her character at more length or develop her instead of using her as a means to develop Frank (by showing what his patience is tried by) or Chad (by showing his incapacity for empathy)? Sure, but in actual life too there are people who exist solely as beligerants, because they present themselves only in those terms, and walk into rooms only to project hostility and excuse themselves in anger.

I can tell that a lot of my responses might seem like excuses which only function while I'm defending the show, so I want to reiterate that these are separate things: when I watch the show, I appreciate these things actively in my recognition of them on-screen. It's why A Woman Under the Influence is one of my favorite films, despite my awareness of how many people (Pauline Kael and many, many others) took issues with it for various, well-argued reasons, including the same charge of misogyny. Why do I like it? Because when I watch it, I see my mother as I knew her in my actual life rendered accurately on-screen. I can't say the emotion I feel is enjoyment, but it's a film I would defend with my life, and its existence makes my life feel acknowledged and seen.
Brad D wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:07 pmTammy Preston
This is maybe my least favorite of the things you list. I think Chrysta Bell did good as a first-timer, and something about the method of being new to acting and the character being new to her role as an inner-circle agent married together well. I especially enjoy her interrogation of Hastings. What I don't like is that her character feels unresolved unless you read the Frost books, where her character actually has an arc by the end of TFD. Her christening as an agent and her learning lore work less as thematic elements and more as exposition, and I would have preferred her to have both in-season instead of having to jump to a different media aspect of the franchise. The nature of her role as a fledgling is begging for more of a sense of her development trajectory; I mean, that's usually the hook to a story built around the character--it's odd and missing the point to position a fish-out-of-water character in only a subplot of a larger story, especially as a minor player. Because she isn't sufficiently her own character, she seems like a lost opportunity who is justified just by the fact that as part of an ensemble she contrasts against Diane so well.

EDIT: Fleshed some things out a bit more.
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To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by enumbs »

Brad D wrote:For those that loved the Return—this is an honest question. Did you find any of the following interesting or particularly great?

The Roadhouse booth chats
Ashley Judd
Dr. Amp’s rants
Frank’s Wife
Tammy Preston

Y’all know my gripes about a perceived lack of story, but these elements in particular just make my eyes roll. Very curious if they were positives for many others.
Happy to provide some thoughts:

The Roadhouse chats are some or my favourite scenes of the series. The first is full of weird details like the in-joke about the penguin and the grotesque rash on that girl’s armpit - it reminds me a lot of the Pomona conversation from Inland Empire in how it feels simultaneously banal and full of cryptic import. The second one plays like a kind of knowing joke on how we’re trying to piece the story together, throwing out a bunch of names and absurd details right after Audrey’s similarly frustrating introduction. I’ve always found that side of Lynch really funny, but there’s an odd kind of yearning to the scene as well - the sense of further stories just out of frame that we’re never going to be able to understand. These scenes are filled with uncanny echoes of things we either know or will come to know about - truck accidents, people bleeding from the nose and mouth - creating that sense of eerie reverberations which only Lynch is capable of. The last Roadhouse conversation is especially unsettling (most notably the sound effect after the mention of Tina), and I think it leads perfectly into the nightmarish denouement of Audrey’s story.

I don’t find Ashley Judd’s performance particularly interesting - she’s one of the few characters who I would feel neutral about recasting. Yet her scenes work because they are mostly about Ben quietly trying to do the right thing, in a world far-removed from the soap opera he once inhabited. The fact that he never leaves his office makes it feel like a purgatorial space, and emphasises the mundane sadness of his existence. He’s become an ordinary man contemplating an affair with an ordinary woman. I like the melancholic and reflective quality to a lot of these scenes, but my favourite is the intimate moment where they first try to locate the source of the humming sound. It’s tender in a way that feels totally real, even as the sound is infusing the entire scene with an oddly magical atmosphere. The fact that we then follow Beverly to her house contributes to that feeling I mentioned about stories just out of frame, and the sense that everyone is dealing with there own drama and emotional weight. The bitterness between the couple feels very real and specific, and I like how it contrasts with the warmth of the previous scene. I think that without this exchange Beverly might feel purely like a plot device representing temptation, but the tangent allows us to see that she is engaged in her own parallel struggle.

Dr Amp’s first rant was a very funny punchline to those long scenes with him acquiring and painting the shovels. I thought it was a great satire on Alex Jones types using people’s misfortune and disillusionment with the system in order to make a buck. By the second rant I felt the joke had worn a bit thin, and I believe I groaned at the third instance of his schtick in Part 12. At a certain point in the scene however I realised they were actually reusing footage, which interested me as so much of the show seemed to be about repeated patterns of behaviour at this point. When he mentioned circles of Hell and the show cuts to Audrey I was definitely excited by what now felt like a purposeful choice, and in retrospect I think that these scenes are thematically crucial. Dr Amp might be huckster, but his rhetoric about digging oneself out of the shit is fundamentally about breaking free from patterns of suffering and denial - an idea that resonates throughout The Return. I still find the second monologue one of the least enjoyable scenes in the season, but I find the character’s role excellent overall.

My response to Frank’s wife was similar in that I initially just saw her as a comic figure. I didn’t like her scene in Part 5 at all on first watch, as it seemed to be little more than a less funny rehash of Nadine in the original series. The moment in the next episode where it’s revealed that her behaviour is the result of her veteran son’s suicide event was brilliant however in how it re-contextualised what came before. The two scenes are a great microcosm of how Lynch creates expectations and allows us to form judgements before pulling the rug out from under us. On rewatches I think the first scene is great, particularly Forster’s patient reaction. What once seemed liked stoical endurance of a “nagging housewife” is in fact empathy towards a person in great pain, even as he carries pain of his own.

I enjoy Agent Preston because she is such a peculiar presence. Just like Bell, she moves her hips in what appears to be a self-consciously sexy way, pouting and posing as if for a photoshoot. I totally understand why some can’t stand her acting! For me, it’s largely funny and endearing, particularly during the scene where Cole and Diane smoke. I think Lynch is very aware of Bell’s strange affect, and uses it to the show’s advantage. Another example would be the bit where she’s patrolling around ridiculously while Cole looks up at the vortex in the sky. I remember a podcast comparing Tammy to a weird special effect, and I totally see what they mean. I think that when she needs to act in a more traditional way she delivers the goods - such as in the Hastings interrogation scene - but for the most part she is just a fun addition to the Blue Rose dynamic. I think the fact that I didn’t read Secret History until after seeing the show may be part of why I like her more than some, as I was able to take her as her own character rather than comparing her to the sardonic agent from the book.

Hope that provides some insight!
Last edited by enumbs on Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by enumbs »

Ha, I wrote my post before seeing yours AXX°N N. - interesting to see the crossover and occasional differences in perspectives!
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

I gotta say, with all the You Tube podcasters railing against pharmaceutical companies nowadays , Dr Amp plays really well in 2021. Much more so than he did in 2017.

Literally Dr Amp types are driving the future of America today (or so it seems). And no I don’t want to get into the particulars but everyone knows what I am talking about.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

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enumbs wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:17 pm The Roadhouse chats are some or my favourite scenes of the series. The first is full of weird details like the in-joke about the penguin and the grotesque rash on that girl’s armpit - it reminds me a lot of the Pomona conversation from Inland Empire in how it feels simultaneously banal and full of cryptic import. The second one plays like a kind of knowing joke on how we’re trying to piece the story together, throwing out a bunch of names and absurd details right after Audrey’s similarly frustrating introduction. I’ve always found that side of Lynch really funny, but there’s an odd kind of yearning to the scene as well - the sense of further stories just out of frame that we’re never going to be able to understand. These scenes are filled with uncanny echoes of things we either know or will come to know about - truck accidents, people bleeding from the nose and mouth - creating that sense of eerie reverberations which only Lynch is capable of. The last Roadhouse conversation is especially unsettling (most notably the sound effect after the mention of Tina), and I think it leads perfectly into the nightmarish denouement of Audrey’s story.
Agree that the roadhouse scenes felt very reminiscent of the Pomona conversation in Inland Empire, but for me that's a negative. I think I would've preferred the Blue Velvet-original series era Lynch to bring back Twin Peaks, rather than at least half or more of it feeling more (to me) like Mulholland Drive, Inland Empire, and (bizarrely) bad mid-Season 2 of the original series. I was fine with the roadhouse musical performances for the most part, but only liked a handful of the scenes - the first one we saw with Shelley and Bobby and green glove guy, the introduction of Bad Coop's son, the screaming girl being picked up by the two guys (though could have also done without it), and Audrey's stuff. The rest I don't like. I do think a lot of the people missing from this season could have been slotted in there, though.

Remind me about the penguin joke - I remember the tuxedo one in the original series of course but can't recall the one in The Return?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

enumbs wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:25 pm Interesting to see the crossover and occasional differences in perspectives!
Same here! I especially like your description of the chats echoing and reflecting things in an eerie way, and about the suggestion of a lot existing off-screen--it reminds me of the scene where Andy lets a perp go and he's in this odd, unexplained pressing situation that never gets brought up again. The shot of the doorway is one of the eeriest shots in the show for me, which is bizarre because on the face of it literally nothing is happening.
mtwentz wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:38 pm I gotta say, with all the You Tube podcasters railing against pharmaceutical companies nowadays , Dr Amp plays really well in 2021. Much more so than he did in 2017.

Literally Dr Amp types are driving the future of America today (or so it seems). And no I don’t want to get into the particulars but everyone knows what I am talking about.
In fact it's since become extremely in vogue, and so was the forerunner to what is now a (quite frankly tired and often lazy) extremely established trope. I mean, J. Jonah Jameson in the new Spiderman is
Spoiler:
literally Alex Jones down to the chryons and graphics.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

The Roadhouse booth chats - I absolutely loved these scenes ! Some of my favorite scenes of The Return. I was into Hotel Room too, and I really enjoy Sam Shepherd experimental theater stuff too where it's all cryptic figuring out the subtext of conversation. I'd love to see Lynch direct an adaptation of Buried Child.

The one with Ruby/ Charlyne Yi encapsulated what hypnagogia feels like. That feeling of sleep paralysis, trying to move but you can't , really interesting echo of Cooper trying to wake up.

I was into all the Billy references and trying to figure out all the connections, whether the jail cell guy was actually Billy or not.
I'm a big fan of puzzle box drama.

Ashley Judd - I liked her character/ vignette. So many of us in America have suck-ass jobs we can't quit cause we need the health insurance.
This struggling woman has to be all smiles around Ben Horne, probably having to work overtime, and the reveal scene with her ill husband who needs the health care, I found it effective. It's not preachy and doesn't get in your face socially and politically, but it resonated with me.

Dr. Amp’s rants - not my favorite, but I thought some of it was funny. Dr Jacoby wasn't my favorite character in 1990-91, but I don't mind him. it gave Russ Tamblyn a chance to do a bit of a one man show late in his career.

I watched Andy Rooney as a kid, and sometimes I re watch Harlan Ellison's rants in the 90's, often times they make absolutely no sense, old men bitching, I'm not a senior , but it strikes me this is a part of human development / the aging process. you become an elder in society and you're afraid your relevance is ending, people aren't listening to you. the whole 'angriest man in the world' routine that Dr Amp is putting out there evolves I imagine when you're looking back at the good old days that probably weren't that good, it's a golden mist, but you're fighting change, trying to maintain some sense of control and order. it resonates with Nadine, just as Andy Rooney and Harlan Ellison struck a chord too, we are social animals, we are attracted to people who speak confidently, even if it's not totally logical or consistent.

Frank’s Wife - I thought it was quirky and funny. you're working and trying to concentrate, and the distractions of life and domestic matters intercede with your focus. I'm not sure if it was written originally for Harry as maybe a way for him to pine for Josie or something, being stuck in an unhappy marriage and wishing his life had gone different, maybe that was the original context, but I still found it overall relatable. my significant other is always nagging me and driving me crazy, it happens.

Tammy Preston - Sometimes I wish they cast a more experienced actress than Chrysta Bell, but yeah, she had her moments. I liked the bit where she pointed out the fingerprints being in reverse, and the Hastings scene was good.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by eyeboogers »

Dr.Amp's rants were the key to unlocking how all the other story elements were linked thematically. The Amp Podcast format also taps into how the media landscape has splintered from everyone watching the same thing on the same platform ("Invitation to Love" or "Twin Peaks" on network television) to any nutjob with a half decent microphone, a laptop and a polarising enough message can become a broadcaster with some level of following. Having said all that, I concede that on initial viewing those segments dragged on a bit.

In general a lot of those elements you mention are things that might not have much spark on their own, but help to bring further nuance to the "dig yourself out of the shit" core theme. Structurally Lynch/Frost approached this differently than in a classic setup/payoff screenplay structure, but for me it made the storyworld richer. The scene with Frank Truman's wife did seem underdeveloped/rushed.

Tamara Preston is extremely disjointed in terms of how she comes across in Frost's books and the more than eccentric, almost android like being we met in the show. So she comes across as more of a half completed sketch of a great character where not all creative decisions have landed yet. They used the character to get into how even a character that was supremely capable in terms of doing her job was still being objectified by people we otherwise have been shown to be sympathetic characters. Which again supports a key theme of the season.

Some of the roadhouse booth chats to this day feel like a code we've only partially cracked, which to some of the disappointed probably comes across as "random", but I like that a few of them feel like a challenge. And some are quite classic in function: the one with Richard Horne was a great introduction to the character. Shelley with her girlfriends discussing James etc. also worked well. Probably we can agree on those.

So yes, I wouldn't removed any of those puzzle pieces, they are part of what makes it worth returning to the return again and again. To use a metaphor, I think the disappointed are saying "we can't see the forest for the trees" while to me all those fragments joining to form a thematically strong whole means that "there are so many trees here that there is a forest".
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by sylvia_north »

eyeboogers wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:29 am Dr.Amp's rants were the key to unlocking how all the other story elements were linked thematically. The Amp Podcast format also taps into how the media landscape has splintered from everyone watching the same thing on the same platform ("Invitation to Love" or "Twin Peaks" on network television) to any nutjob with a half decent microphone, a laptop and a polarising enough message can become a broadcaster with some level of following. Having said all that, I concede that on initial viewing those segments dragged on a bit.

In general a lot of those elements you mention are things that might not have much spark on their own, but help to bring further nuance to the "dig yourself out of the shit" core theme. Structurally Lynch/Frost approached this differently than in a classic setup/payoff screenplay structure, but for me it made the storyworld richer. The scene with Frank Truman's wife did seem underdeveloped/rushed.

Tamara Preston is extremely disjointed in terms of how she comes across in Frost's books and the more than eccentric, almost android like being we met in the show. So she comes across as more of a half completed sketch of a great character where not all creative decisions have landed yet. They used the character to get into how even a character that was supremely capable in terms of doing her job was still being objectified by people we otherwise have been shown to be sympathetic characters. Which again supports a key theme of the season.

Some of the roadhouse booth chats to this day feel like a code we've only partially cracked, which to some of the disappointed probably comes across as "random", but I like that a few of them feel like a challenge. And some are quite classic in function: the one with Richard Horne was a great introduction to the character. Shelley with her girlfriends discussing James etc. also worked well. Probably we can agree on those.

So yes, I wouldn't removed any of those puzzle pieces, they are part of what makes it worth returning to the return again and again. To use a metaphor, I think the disappointed are saying "we can't see the forest for the trees" while to me all those fragments joining to form a thematically strong whole means that "there are so many trees here that there is a forest".
Dr Amp was fun the first time around. Jacoby was always kooky, now he’s 21st century kooky.

I don’t think Tammy is treated as an object at all. We’re supposed to assume a romance or mutual flirtation between her and Gordon, and this is a morally neutral thing. Albert comments on the Monroe in Niagara wiggle exit, which I don’t think is out of character, and I don’t think objectifying “supremely capable” women supports any theme in Return if she had been, but since you didn’t elaborate, you either think this is obvious to the rest of us or didn’t finish your thought for some other reason. I think Chrysta Bell caught the right balance between sensual without being wanton and strictly business. Over the years, fans imagined Audrey as this kind of agent, a character out of 40’s noir. I would hesitate to call Tammy “supremely capable.” She’s competent, but not even Cooper was supremely capable. My last thought on this re-watch after Part 18 was that Cooper is still a crappy detective.

Let’s be real though, no one really got fleshed out in TPR. That’s not was this season was for.

The Roadhouse vignettes are non-sequiturs. That’s their value. The trademark Lynch style is moving between relatable banalities and extraordinary events, and showing the former in the latter and vice versa. Not everything is part of the puzzle or a nails that hammer home some theme, overtly stated or otherwise, though an individual’s imagination can make that so. Directors like to fuck with people, including you
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Re: Differing Views on The Return - and a poll for the Disappointed Support Group

Post by Brad D »

The roadhouse scenes with the random people going on and on about whatever is - IMO - really a terrible use of time. Lynch indulgence at its most egregious. It exists to take up time and you can not convince me it is applicable to anything else. I think some of this feeling spreads to other moments for me.

I think one Dr. Amp scene would have been ok to tell us what the character is up to, but maybe after that, why not give him something else to do or somewhere to go? After the first scene, its just exhausting to me. Can't say I'm interested in revisiting any of that material.

Chrysta Bell was out of her league and depth as Tammy. The acting is just not good, not believable, and it doesn't help that she's reduced to eye candy for Gordon. Really a terrible moment that ruins a great scene when she is ogled and dehumanized. I'll say it again - no one had the guts to reel Lynch in during the Return. Between the French woman and Gordon talking about his erections, its a bit surprising he didnt sleep with Diane at the end.

Candy Clark also feels like a piece of vanity casting. Just there to be there, adding nothing to the whole. Perhaps if the character had more to do, it might put her outbursts in context. Slice out her scenes, and she wouldn't be missed. Ben would have worked better on his own without Ashley Judd, IMO. I did enjoy most of Beymer's scenes, gripes aside.
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Re: Differing Views on The Return - and a poll for the Disappointed Support Group

Post by Jonah »

The Return is definitely self-indulgent. Regardless of whether you like it or love it or - as I am - are somewhere in between, it is impossible to deny it's not self-indulgent and given to excess. I mean, even Inland Empire had over an hour and a half, or almost two hours, of deleted scenes. As far as we know, The Return has none or only a very small amount we might not be aware of. Didn't Lynch make additions to the script as well? Wasn't there a post saying it became a larger script than the one he and Frost produced? Not to mention all the added stuff during shooting. I think this may be the reason it went from an estimated 9 to 18. Perhaps too once they got the higher episode count, they actually had enough for 12 or 14 but threw in more to inflate it or maybe not. I don't know, but it definitely feels like Lynch added everything that was shot into it and it really, really shows. Now how you view this depends on your own view. I get people respecting the artist and feeling they shouldn't be reeled back or their vision pared down, but I also think tighter editing and a more discriminating decision on what to include and exclude can lead to a stronger final product, so I'm a bit torn on this. With The Return, I do think a shorter run of 9 to 12 episodes would have been a lot better whereas usually I prefer additional scenes, extended episodes, I felt this particular revival felt bloated and over-extended, really something (for me) you have to wade through to pick out the gems. A little filler in anything is expected but this felt like too much.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Differing Views on The Return - and a poll for the Disappointed Support Group

Post by sylvia_north »

Brad D wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:25 am
Chrysta Bell was out of her league and depth as Tammy. The acting is just not good, not believable, and it doesn't help that she's reduced to eye candy for Gordon. Really a terrible moment that ruins a great scene when she is ogled and dehumanized. I'll say it again - no one had the guts to reel Lynch in during the Return. Between the French woman and Gordon talking about his erections, its a bit surprising he didnt sleep with Diane at the end.
Does it really take away her humanity, though, this moment between Albert and Gordon? After this many years have these two been working together they can be a teeny bit crass, especially if she is or had been at some point Gordon’s lover? I don’t like Gordon talking about his d—- still working in front of a female subordinate but again, Albert set the bait and Gordon took it, and this time watching I felt like that’s why Tammy reacts with that knowing look. I almost feel like their affair, even if it was just a one time thing, is an open secret and Albert and Bryson like to bring it up for sport instead of Gordon and Albert taking opportunities to creep on Tammy, who is just meat.

Hear me out, it’s in character. If we now know Gordon pretends his hearing is worse than it is, How likely was it that Shelly Johnson’s voice was uniquely audible to him? And Shelly was a teenager! I assume he bone zoned Diane already, probably while Cooper was having milkshakes with Audrey. We projected this wholesome paternal role onto Gordon but I guess shameless skirt chasing is just the guy he is. Meanwhile Albert is still a straight-shooter who has Gordon’s number, and uses it.
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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boske
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Re: Differing Views on The Return - and a poll for the Disappointed Support Group

Post by boske »

Saying that there is a deeper meaning to Roadhouse discussions is a bit like a self-fulfilling prophecy: it has not happened (or been decoded) yet, but that does not mean it will not be so in the future. There could be a subliminal link somewhere though to what is going on in each part, who knows, I have definitively not seen it, although some people may have. To me, these Roadhouse acts are simply random works of Audrey's subconscious that she ultimately woke up from.

Ben scenes are what they are, and I think there is not a person (disappointed or not) that was not happy to see Ben back. The scene where he talks about his bike is the culmination, and I very much like it. It is a sad, sad scene. Here you have an old man who, although having abundant material wealth, is longing for some innocence lost: a broken family, a disabled son, a troubled daughter, a homicidal grandson that just committed a murder and is on the run, and lastly an embarrassing stoner brother. Was it all worth it in the end? Would he rather just have his old bike and be completely happy?
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Brad D
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Re: Differing Views on The Return - and a poll for the Disappointed Support Group

Post by Brad D »

I suppose he doesn’t take away her humanity, but does reduce her to something other than a valuable co-worker. I guess I never realized Gordon and Tammy were a thing. The scene would have worked much, much better by cutting that comment out. I felt *the* vibe and then it was undercut.
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enumbs
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Re: Differing Views on The Return - and a poll for the Disappointed Support Group

Post by enumbs »

Jonah wrote:The Return is definitely self-indulgent. Regardless of whether you like it or love it or - as I am - are somewhere in between, it is impossible to deny it's not self-indulgent and given to excess.
Very interesting and well-written post.

I generally like art to be self-indulgent. If an artist creates something in accordance with their own tastes, there will usually be people out there with the same sensibility who respond to their work. The scenes in The Return that some regard as “filler” are meaningful to me and others, so a less “self-indulgent” Twin Peaks would have been far worse from that perspective.

For some people, Twin Peaks has always been too weird to be palatable. Others think it slipped into self-indulgence at the moment Cooper dreamed of a red room, or when a room service waiter gave him a thumbs up. If Lynch didn’t indulge his own tastes through his work, then what should his barometer of quality be? Who determines the right level of indulgence?

Brad find the roadhouse scenes to be a “terrible use of time” but you only have to scroll upwards to read people’s descriptions of the effect those scenes had on them, and how they contribute to their perceptions on the series as a whole. The phrase that has been applied to Candy Clark’s scenes - “cut them out and they wouldn’t be missed” - is clearly true for certain viewers but not everyone, and the same could be said for any scene in the show. Even ignoring the principle of artistic freedom, there is no way of improving these divisive aspects of The Return for some without weakening it for others. A shorter, less meditative version of the Return with fewer tangents would appeal to some people, but I am unconvinced that it would be more widely loved than the current version, or provoke the same depth of response.

Out of curiosity Brad, did the answers to your question help you to understand the perspective of people who liked those characters and scenes in the Return? I’m tempted to pose a similar question somewhere for those who passionately defend the Matrix sequels….
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