Differing Views on The Return

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
7
30%
More disappointed.
5
22%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
1
4%
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
1
4%
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
2
9%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
1
4%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
2
9%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
1
4%
I now love The Return completely.
1
4%
Other - explain in comments.
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23
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boske
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

I think BradD has a point, in that placing Bob as a part of the sludge that emanated following the blast, contradicted or nullified the previous mythological backstory that Hawk originally brought up, unless the blast was depicting an archetypal event that is in essence timeless ("this is what happens when you split the atom"). Part 8 is highly symbolic, and L&F are (I posit) making use of spheres and pearls throughout S3 to respectively denote spirits and souls.

The Convenience Store though is a metaphor, and has always been. Who would build such a thing (having a staircase leading to a flat roof with nothing on it) in the middle of a forest/nowhere? Maybe in some old European fairytales. It has to be a dream. But the fact that we have seen it as such is fantastic, I very much liked the scene.
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Jonah
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

enumbs wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:43 am
missoulamt wrote:Could it be that some of the most memorable scenes from the original were the results of other directors than Lynch? Forbidden thought :)
I’m pretty sure everyone would agree with this? Laura’s funeral, the trip to see the Log Lady, MIKE’s interrogation… the list goes on. I’m not sure how that’s relevant to the point I was making though!
Strangely enough, this wouldn't have even occurred to me. I can be hard on The Return, perhaps even going so far as to think perhaps too much Lynch was just too much of a good thing, but when I think of the original series, which I prefer over The Return, for me all the best moments were the Lynch episodes. The ones he directed were just sublime for the most part to me and I associate his episodes with the very very best of the series - and I loved that visceral thrill you'd get when you saw "Directed by David Lynch" appear in the credits and know you were in for a really great, special episode. That feeling of an "event episode". Or that stealth moment, during quieter episodes like Episode 9, where you might have missed his name at the beginning and didn't realise it was a Lynch episode and you suddenly get to a crazy moment (you know the ones in that episode) and you'd rewind to the credits and go, "wait... is this Lynch? This has to be Lynch."

So, yeah, seeing these moments listed out above - it's true a lot of the iconic and great moments of the show happened in non-Lynch directed episodes. I'm not sure I'd elevate any of them above his episodes, though, but it's true a lot of memorable stuff happened in other moments he wasn't directly involved in. I also like some of the moments towards the end of the mid-season 2 stretch - I personally love the very polarizing Josie-in-the-drawer-pull scene, and the end of Episode 27 is a standout of beautiful scenes that really feel like Lynch directed them (and I wouldn't be surprised to learn he secretly did or at least requested those shots, not to knock Stephen Gyllenhaal who did a great job)... that slow, eerie camera pull-out from Cooper and Annie, the lingering shot of the coffee dripping like syrup/blood on the pancakes and those closing shots of the town culminating in Bob appearing from the red curtains and the camera pans down to see the red room reflected in a puddle at Glastonbury Grove while jazz music begins to play. Perfection.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by missoulamt »

AXX°N N. wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:54 pm I think the divide between those who liked S3 and didn't is that the former take the demystification as servicing a greater deliberate theme (given the previous forum discussions about how, for instance, the bORB climax plays on the level of a hero's journey wish fulfillment, whereas everything that follows forcefully resists that premise) and the latter find it inherently unrewarding before you even get to what it might be in service of, which to my mind is completely fair. If something doesn't work for you at step 1, why continue to step 2?
I'll use a meal at a restaraunt as an analogy :) If there was no taste, would you still go to great lengths to defend the cook's choice of display?
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by missoulamt »

boske wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:45 pm The Convenience Store though is a metaphor, and has always been. Who would build such a thing (having a staircase leading to a flat roof with nothing on it) in the middle of a forest/nowhere? Maybe in some old European fairytales. It has to be a dream. But the fact that we have seen it as such is fantastic, I very much liked the scene.
But the power of the location was strongest felt when (Mike?) first introduced it. One's imagination was engaged. Especially at a young age. A convenience store? So, that's where they were hiding? Where in TP could it be located? What does it look like? I still remember the thrill of it all.

Again, through showing it, the power goes away, in my opinion.

That it was a portal to something bigger was felt from the beginning. It's not something that have to be illustrated by showing extended shots of woodsmen milling about at night. Especially if it looks closer in style to Inland Empire than the world of TP. And maybe that's part of the problem. Lynch simply moved on from the world of TP or forgot what it used to feel like, now treating it like any of his art projects. I bet fans of IE are more forgiving of TR. But does it hold up to the original in terms of power? Nowhere near.
Last edited by missoulamt on Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by missoulamt »

Jonah wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:08 pm Strangely enough, this wouldn't have even occurred to me. I can be hard on The Return, perhaps even going so far as to think perhaps too much Lynch was just too much of a good thing, but when I think of the original series, which I prefer over The Return, for me all the best moments were the Lynch episodes. The ones he directed were just sublime for the most part to me and I associate his episodes with the very very best of the series - and I loved that visceral thrill you'd get when you saw "Directed by David Lynch" appear in the credits and know you were in for a really great, special episode. That feeling of an "event episode".
Agree 100%. Those were always the best but there were contenders ;)
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by sylvia_north »

Conversely, when Hastings and Ray talk about their experiences with the occult realm, and when Albert and Tammy talk about the Blue Rose and tulpas , it’s not at all like the inspiring glimpses and references that the pre-S3 world offered. It’s just characters that don’t matter, talking. The stop motion woodsmen — really, all of the woodsmen stuff apart from the radio station— might have been visually weak, but the sequence between the motel/Dutchman’s and the woods/convenience store felt true to FWWM, more so than the bad digital effects of Red Room scenes or the Fireman’s black and white world did. Weak writing and throwaway characters are the bigger crime of TPR .

A wonderful part of all the directors and writers trying to imitate and do justice to the style DL established in season 1 was they came up with all kinds of strong style and genre play, humor, pathos and character development. Why so much screen time on the two petty shit heads of the sheriff station, Chad and Doris? Aren’t Audrey and her husband being petty shit heads enough? It’s. Not. Interesting.

**in before someone says that people really are petty shit heads like Chad and Doris so this is real and META and viscerally effective. Don’t care, make it interesting. Even in absurdist theater, the writing and people should be compelling.

On this re-watch I’m noticing just how much coffee and pie there was. Seriously no one could possibly complain there wasn’t enough.
Last edited by sylvia_north on Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Rainwater »

I think what some of you guys might be missing about the look of the Convenience Store in TR is that it's meant to be a prop building on the atomic bomb test site. (They put all kinds of buildings and objects there to observe the destruction afterwards)
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by sylvia_north »

Rainwater wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:22 am I think what some of you guys might be missing about the look of the Convenience Store in TR is that it's meant to be a prop building on the atomic bomb test site.
More like a facade of a house in an old Western. I don’t get any Nevada test site vibes from it. Those buildings were complete structures.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Rainwater »

sylvia_north wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:26 am
Rainwater wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:22 am I think what some of you guys might be missing about the look of the Convenience Store in TR is that it's meant to be a prop building on the atomic bomb test site.
More like a facade of a house in an old Western. I don’t get any Nevada test site vibes from it. Those buildings were complete structures.
Well, I doubt Lynch did any research on what test site buildings actually looked like, or that he gives a shit. To me, it leaves a very clear impression that that's what it's supposed to be when watching Part 8. It's this empty little gas station/convenience store in the desert that is very prop-looking, and then it's flooded by Woodsmen after the explosion, and is then used the way it's used from then onwards, inhabited by the forces that seemingly arrive through the atomic bomb. It just fits.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by missoulamt »

sylvia_north wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:21 am **in before someone says that people really are petty shit heads like Chad and Doris so this is real and META and viscerally effective. Don’t care, make it interesting.
Exactly, I don't get that reasoning / line of defense at all nor was it needed to "prop up" the original. That's like saying James' leaving Twin Peaks in the original made for an interesting storyline because there are women out there who actually fall prey to violent husbands, thus it's real.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

I think the elephant in the room here is that the door at the top of the staircase is the very one that is in the painting given to Laura by Tremonds in FWWM, and that Laura undoubtedly goes through in her dream. Let's think about it for a second, Laura was there in FWWM! The door leads to the very motel where Laura and Ronette were spotted by Leland. That cannot be coincidental.

As sylvia_north wrote, the scene feels very FWWM-esque, that could be why it struct such a chord with me.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by sylvia_north »

Rainwater wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:35 am
sylvia_north wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:26 am
Rainwater wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:22 am I think what some of you guys might be missing about the look of the Convenience Store in TR is that it's meant to be a prop building on the atomic bomb test site.
More like a facade of a house in an old Western. I don’t get any Nevada test site vibes from it. Those buildings were complete structures.
Well, I doubt Lynch did any research on what test site buildings actually looked like, or that he gives a shit. To me, it leaves a very clear impression that that's what it's supposed to be when watching Part 8. It's this empty little gas station/convenience store in the desert that is very prop-looking, and then it's flooded by Woodsmen after the explosion, and is then used the way it's used from then onwards, inhabited by the forces that seemingly arrive through the atomic bomb. It just fits.
It’s not in the desert, for one. It was a facade built in the area where the rest of the WA scenes were shot, that dematerializes into thin air or may not physically exist on planet Earth at all. The Trinity test was in New Mexico. Doom Town was Nevada, you could see the explosions from the Vegas strip.

I’m certain everyone who lived through the 50’s and 60’s knew exactly what the NV National Security site looked like. L/F had to do duck and cover drills in school like all American kids did, nuclear war was a very real, immediate psychological horror. This video interrupted a regular 1956 television broadcast, scaring the shit out of everyone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkhNED3-mnI
Doom Town the documentary came out in 1953, footage was in all the newsreels. Of course DL knew what they looked like.

What would the point of prop-like houses for a real test be? If someone doesn’t give a shit about authenticity, why would they build a thing to suggest a thing they’re imitating? Sorry I just don’t think there’s enough evidence. The building manifests in Twin Peaks. The only thing prop-like about the Doom Town test buildings were the dummies in them. The convenience store has no vinyl siding, because its old.

There’s a better backstory for the logging men and a gas station. Probably something to do with deforestation and petrol, or just a mid century artifact like the motor court style motel of the Red Diamond. Motor hotels and car culture facilitated crime and adultery (think Psycho, Lolita.) The gas station and the motel of the 50’s-60’s go hand in hand, and directly precede the Golden Age of the serial killer as highways were built. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180963895/ That’s where my mind goes, personally.

I also think the facade sells fine. A bunch of mute woodsmen farting about under flashing lights is what looks cheap to me. A bunch of them doing the necromancy dance over Mr C is far less creepy and intriguing than just the two in FWWM. I guess the uniformity of the look is necessary, but it’s new. We know some woodsmen do not look like that.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by enumbs »

missoulamt wrote:
sylvia_north wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:21 am **in before someone says that people really are petty shit heads like Chad and Doris so this is real and META and viscerally effective. Don’t care, make it interesting.
Exactly, I don't get that reasoning / line of defense at all nor was it needed to "prop up" the original. That's like saying James' leaving Twin Peaks in the original made for an interesting storyline because there are women out there who actually fall prey to violent husbands, thus it's real.
When people say they find an aspect of the show realistic, metatextually complex or visceral, they’re not providing excuses for why the show doesn’t have to be interesting. What they’ve doing is describing subjective reasons why they found the show to be extremely interesting.

Replying to praise for the show with “don’t care, make it interesting” is just the same as me replying to your criticisms with “don’t care, it was interesting”. Interest is not a universal and objective metric. Yes, I’d be surprised to meet someone who loved the James and Evelyn subplot, but then I also find it surprising that anyone could find the Part 8 convenience store scene to be “visually weak”. Can we not just take each other’s views at face value without assuming sophistry or deflection?
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

Chad was my 2nd favorite new character, Richard being my first.

But if you didn’t like him, oh well, as Chad would say, ‘It’s a free world!’
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Brad D »

For those that loved the Return—this is an honest question. Did you find any of the following interesting or particularly great?

The Roadhouse booth chats
Ashley Judd
Dr. Amp’s rants
Frank’s Wife
Tammy Preston

Y’all know my gripes about a perceived lack of story, but these elements in particular just make my eyes roll. Very curious if they were positives for many others.
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