Differing Views on The Return

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To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
7
30%
More disappointed.
5
22%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
1
4%
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
1
4%
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
2
9%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
1
4%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
2
9%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
1
4%
I now love The Return completely.
1
4%
Other - explain in comments.
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23
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mtwentz
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

Pacing actually deserves its own thread someday.

In the original series, Episode 14, the reveal episode, is overall one of the slowest paced pieces of television ever (up until that time at least). It moves like a snail, really up until the moment where Ben Horne is arrested, then the pace picks up and never really lets go until the ending. Episode 8 was also known for driving viewers up the wall for its slow pace, though I think the problem with that episode is the endless 'recapping' of Season 1 plot points, which slows things down even more than Senor Droolcup.

Lynch didn't really change in 2017. What changed IMO is that movies and television sped up their pace considerably in the intervening years. We are now conditioned with shorter attention spans than ever, and watching a guy sweeping a floor for 1 minute now seems like an hour. We have Youtube, TikTok videos, Twitter...and I think movies reflect that shortened attention span.

Except for Part 18, where we have a lot of driving back and forth, and lovemaking in a sleazy motel, none of the Parts of The Return actually feel as slow paced to me as Episodes 8 and 14 of the original series.

Cinema has sped up; Lynch has stayed the same.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
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sylvia_north
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by sylvia_north »

mtwentz wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:39 pm
Lynch didn't really change in 2017. What changed IMO is that movies and television sped up their pace considerably in the intervening years. We are now conditioned with shorter attention spans than ever, and watching a guy sweeping a floor for 1 minute now seems like an hour. We have Youtube, TikTok videos, Twitter...and I think movies reflect that shortened attention span.

Except for Part 18, where we have a lot of driving back and forth, and lovemaking in a sleazy motel, none of the Parts of The Return actually feel as slow paced to me as Episodes 8 and 14 of the original series.

Cinema has sped up; Lynch has stayed the same.
I disagree. I’m not conditioned to anything. I don’t even consume much new media.

We can talk about episode 14, but that was the strategic break that the post you responded to was talking about, and the result was an interesting contrast. In those moments, the viewer was already won over and dying on the edge of their seats. It was an excruciatingly good tease. NONE OF THAT DYNAMIC TENSION was included in Return. It tried to float on the existing text instead of engaging us.

S3 is WILDLY different than pre IE Lynch. Many cooks were in the kitchen for TP. Lynch was improved apparently by Mary Sweeney and other specific limitations, not just money and all of his friends wanting to be involved in a notable cultural moment and the Lynch brand. Most artists also do their best work early in their career with less pressure, less expectations, a highly flexible brain and a desire to prove himself or herself. That Return would fail on many levels was almost inevitable due to these conditions.

Don’t hand wave what’s boring as just Lynch being Lynch, same as it ever was. TPR was Lynch, rogue, still ambivalent about honoring the world he created/retreading old ground, with no one telling him “no.”

What might have been an interesting experimenting to him, though the evidence of DL having no idea what to do with the green glove BOB battle as he was filming it (!!!) makes me wonder if it was, and makes me wonder, too, how much of TP3 was just impulsive dithering around and seeing if it landed. I’ll never be impressed by half-assed. L/F had 25 years to put together something epic and mind blowing.

I wonder if Martha Nochimson has done a Vedic/ universal field theory analysis on S3. I’d love to find out if she was profoundly disappointed.
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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AXX°N N.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

Yeah, I'm staunchly on the side of loving S3, but I don't think the argument holds any water that those who found it slow are just 'conditioned' by recent media; not only is it presumptuous, it's condescending. While I have seen people who find IE boring, mostly due to its length, that film is extremely edited down compared to S3, almost to the point of the pace feeling like a midnight-hour fever dream. The only Lynch I can think of that has the pacing of S3 at length would be Eraserhead and some of his short-form stuff.

As for dithering or S3 being a bunch of 'half-assed' experimenting with no end in sight, that's what I would argue is something that never changed. He had no script for IE, and he's long relied on intuition or not knowing where he's going until it works out or doesn't. His screenplays (including his episodes of original Twin Peaks) have huge spans of extreme divergence compared to the final products. Roger Ebert described MD as "the experimental glass vials finally not exploding in his hands" because it was the first of Lynch's experiments he thought worked, having famously derided all of his films prior to it.

Also, I disagree completely with the "old artists are worse artists" viewpoint. I can't name a single artist whose early works I prefer to their later works, except for music, where I almost universally prefer earlier works. Strange that.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by eyeboogers »

AXX°N N. wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:26 am Yeah, I'm staunchly on the side of loving S3, but I don't think the argument holds any water that those who found it slow are just 'conditioned' by recent media; not only is it presumptuous, it's condescending.
That is not correct or fair. Lynch and Frost have specifically stated that the pacing and storytelling mechanism of Season 3 was supposed to work as an antidote/reset to the frantic pacing of current media. The sweeping scene/french woman scene are the examples where the technique is made painfully obvious. I think the lazy knee jerk "nails on chalkboard" reaction that some viewers had shows exactly why this experiment was worth doing artistically. It was going to frustrate all of us at various points, but if you allows the show to do its thing your patience is rewarded thousandfold. We have all been poisoned by the sugar explosion of algorithm-driven media, and thankfully Lynch/Frost don't care if some viewers drop off at the 12 minute mark of an episode in the first airing. They have the confidence of knowing that their work will still be seen in 30 years. And not much else will.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

eyeboogers wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:41 pm
AXX°N N. wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:26 am Yeah, I'm staunchly on the side of loving S3, but I don't think the argument holds any water that those who found it slow are just 'conditioned' by recent media; not only is it presumptuous, it's condescending.
That is not correct or fair. Lynch and Frost have specifically stated that the pacing and storytelling mechanism of Season 3 was supposed to work as an antidote/reset to the frantic pacing of current media. The sweeping scene/french woman scene are the examples where the technique is made painfully obvious. I think the lazy knee jerk "nails on chalkboard" reaction that some viewers had shows exactly why this experiment was worth doing artistically. It was going to frustrate all of us at various points, but if you allows the show to do its thing your patience is rewarded thousandfold. We have all been poisoned by the sugar explosion of algorithm-driven media, and thankfully Lynch/Frost don't care if some viewers drop off at the 12 minute mark of an episode in the first airing. They have the confidence of knowing that their work will still be seen in 30 years. And not much else will.
That doesn't contradict with what I said though. It can simultaneously be true that it was deliberately paced and was positioned against current trends and that those who don't like the pace aren't unilaterally conditioned.

The problem is making a sweeping judgment that anyone who dislikes the pacing must therefore be conditioned. That's just not true.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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mtwentz
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

AXX°N N. wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:26 am Yeah, I'm staunchly on the side of loving S3, but I don't think the argument holds any water that those who found it slow are just 'conditioned' by recent media; not only is it presumptuous, it's condescending. While I have seen people who find IE boring, mostly due to its length, that film is extremely edited down compared to S3, almost to the point of the pace feeling like a midnight-hour fever dream. The only Lynch I can think of that has the pacing of S3 at length would be Eraserhead and some of his short-form stuff.

As for dithering or S3 being a bunch of 'half-assed' experimenting with no end in sight, that's what I would argue is something that never changed. He had no script for IE, and he's long relied on intuition or not knowing where he's going until it works out or doesn't. His screenplays (including his episodes of original Twin Peaks) have huge spans of extreme divergence compared to the final products. Roger Ebert described MD as "the experimental glass vials finally not exploding in his hands" because it was the first of Lynch's experiments he thought worked, having famously derided all of his films prior to it.

Also, I disagree completely with the "old artists are worse artists" viewpoint. I can't name a single artist whose early works I prefer to their later works, except for music, where I almost universally prefer earlier works. Strange that.
Hmmm in 17 hours we have 8 people murdered by gunfire, 1 accidental shooting, 1 man coming back to life after being shot, 1 brutal knife killing, a brutal sexual assault in a bar, a brutal assault of a grandmother by her grandson, two separate fights in a bar, a (presumed) suicide by firearm, 2 domestic violence incidents, a woman thrown off a moving car, a woman shooting in a door, a man’s face punched in, another man’s neck savagely bitten off, three heads crushed by ethereal hands (one offscreen), another couple whose faces are demolished by the rotor blade movements of an ethereal being, a gruesome hit and run, 3 superhero scenes, a drug deal with armed enforcers, several people sucked into a vortex, a woman falling into space, a woman nearly beaten to death who miraculously survives, 3 failed assassination attempts, a head of a man attached to the body of a woman, 1 car crash, one car explosion, a man vaporized into nothing, a man who travels into time, 3 cowboys beaten up by one man in a diner, two dead bodies discovered…

On the other hand, we have a few select scenes that are ‘slow TV’- painting, doodling/drawing, sweeping and car driving.

And I would argue the final part 18 is slow paced.

But overall I would not see The Return as slow paced. There are too many characters, too much going on
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AXX°N N.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

When I think of the Return, I think of Gordon offering a cigarette to Diane. I think of Sam staring at the glass box. I think of Dougie, which went on far longer than anyone expected, and whose scenes are comedically functioning off of the fact that the situations (owing to Cooper's literal physical/mental slowness) are drawn out. I think of the ending, which is mostly a night drive. I think of the eerie black and white opening, which is as slow as the Red Room ever is, and which segues into very slow, atmospheric pans into the first time the introduction plays. Each episode ends with a pretty lengthy, often slow-tempo musical performance, which we can never know for sure will eventually be credits, and so even here our patience is being modulated. Most illustrative of all, the very first proper moment of the series is Jacoby receiving his shovels. The camera is way on the other side of trees, we can barely hear what's being said, we have no context for what's happening, and it goes from there.

To my mind, the primary tone of S3 is suspended anticipation, and while this is capitalized on with fluorishes of dynamic events and unexpectedly swift happenings, there's still this dominant tone to me of a trickling or even damming of events, and an easing into and out of each episode. I think it's deliberate and, to be unambiguous, I find it to work extremely well. But I just don't think of S3 and free-associate to 'fast-paced' whatsoever.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Audrey Horne »

Yay, new pages and posts complaining about TP the Return! Happy Holidays to me!! Throw in some FWWM and second half of second season and I’m over the moon!

Too fast or too slow is not a problem for me if it’s done right. I could watch Bergman’s Persona all day long, or conversely Run Lola Run.

For me, Return even on an objective level divorced of being invested for nearly thirty years in the characters still doesn’t work. The writing is clunky for me where it should sing. The dream state is more laborious than ethereal. There are certainly beautiful moments, but I’ve also isolated and cherry picked them… when I’ve tried watching them as whole episodes (or parts) I feel like I should be jotting down notes for the production team waiting the final edit.
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

Audrey Horne wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:20 pm Yay, new pages and posts complaining about TP the Return! Happy Holidays to me!! Throw in some FWWM and second half of second season and I’m over the moon!

Too fast or too slow is not a problem for me if it’s done right. I could watch Bergman’s Persona all day long, or conversely Run Lola Run.

For me, Return even on an objective level divorced of being invested for nearly thirty years in the characters still doesn’t work. The writing is clunky for me where it should sing. The dream state is more laborious than ethereal. There are certainly beautiful moments, but I’ve also isolated and cherry picked them… when I’ve tried watching them as whole episodes (or parts) I feel like I should be jotting down notes for the production team waiting the final edit.


Slow paced may mean different things to different people. But the movie I remember being so slow paced I fell asleep, was Picnic At Hanging Rock. It is considered to be somewhat of a classic. I will have to give it a re-watch someday.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

Have some thoughts on the pacing but waiting until I'm using a proper keyboard.

Audrey Horne wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:20 pm There are certainly beautiful moments, but I’ve also isolated and cherry picked them… when I’ve tried watching them as whole episodes (or parts) I feel like I should be jotting down notes for the production team waiting the final edit.
Love it.
mtwentz wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:18 pm Slow paced may mean different things to different people. But the movie I remember being so slow paced I fell asleep, was Picnic At Hanging Rock. It is considered to be somewhat of a classic. I will have to give it a re-watch someday.
Not sure I saw the whole thing myself. Wikipedia pages about the novel/new novel ending/film itself/real events and time slips all make interesting reads.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by sylvia_north »

Audrey Horne wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:20 pm Yay, new pages and posts complaining about TP the Return! Happy Holidays to me!! Throw in some FWWM and second half of second season and I’m over the moon!

Too fast or too slow is not a problem for me if it’s done right. I could watch Bergman’s Persona all day long, or conversely Run Lola Run.

For me, Return even on an objective level divorced of being invested for nearly thirty years in the characters still doesn’t work. The writing is clunky for me where it should sing. The dream state is more laborious than ethereal. There are certainly beautiful moments, but I’ve also isolated and cherry picked them… when I’ve tried watching them as whole episodes (or parts) I feel like I should be jotting down notes for the production team waiting the final edit.
I co-sign.

We say it’s slow and boring.
They just hear “slow.”
Eraserhead is slow but intriguing, and was highly constrained and took years to finish, during which time it was plotted, designed and planned out precisely to the best effect with what they had, like a poem.

Intriguing is what TP3 is missing, which is amazing, because FWWM left us with a ton of intrigue. The bullseye was a mile wide and they missed the target almost completely in most of the elements.

F#ecking teapot Philip Jeffries and whingeing bitch Audrey...

I think I was okay with season 2’s hokey, corny aspects because I was a little kid, and then I had nostalgia for things I liked as a kid, but eventually I started fast forwarding (VHS) to skipping most of season 2. I think FWWM was and still is a perfect movie but I never argue about it with the many that didn’t like or love it. I never understood the point of telling someone their subjective opinion about a piece of art is wrong, or putting words in their mouth about why they don’t like it, or demanding justifications or trying to convert the heretics or wtvr

P.S. Just having body counts and raping doesn’t make a story exciting. I fall asleep during battle scenes, car chases (zzzz) and movies that just hinge on how fascinating certain filmmakers think rape narratives are as if rape, torture is the only interesting thing people can go through. These things can be cheap shortcuts to entertainment more often than not.

DL can be fascinating, but he wasn’t this go around. Some of it was Darkened Room awful.
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtl »

slow and low that is the tempo
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by LateReg »

sylvia_north wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:02 pm
I wonder if Martha Nochimson has done a Vedic/ universal field theory analysis on S3. I’d love to find out if she was profoundly disappointed.
I have a lot to say about these last couple pages but for now I will just tell you that Martha loved it, essentially stating that it is the first thing in a long while that achieves and in fact surpasses the imagination of the original Twin Peaks series and the key works that followed in its wake (Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men), stating that it is a fuller realization of Lynch's aesthetic for television and deconstruction of the hero.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by sylvia_north »

LateReg wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:12 pm fuller realization of Lynch's aesthetic for television and deconstruction of the hero.
... for better or for worse

Until there’s a book about it, I’m not taking a generic, glowing review at face value. Anyone in media or publishing knows DL is a genius, and that they risk looking like an idiot if they disagree in print. I wonder how she really feels though.
I’ll also accept a feature length article.

Sopranos did nothing for me. The Wire I found unwatchable. Those are low bars to surpass.
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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AXX°N N.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

She just might (hear me out) feel exactly how she said she felt. Not everyone is a liar.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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