Differing Views on The Return

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
7
30%
More disappointed.
5
22%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
1
4%
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
1
4%
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
2
9%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
1
4%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
2
9%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
1
4%
I now love The Return completely.
1
4%
Other - explain in comments.
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

boske wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:28 am I am still disappointed. Profoundly? Overall maybe not as much, but for more mundane reasons, enough time has passed since then that it does not sting as much as it did back then. And there are parts that I really like, both back then and now: the Purple World, Mr. C going to the "Dutchman's", Fireman's place, cherry pie restaurant scene, first half of part 17 including that new scene that they discovered and put in, Ottis and Buella, Cooper taking Laura/Carries back, and probably a few more. And another chance to hear more of Angelo's music, of course. I even liked the floor-sweeping scene (it is always great to see late Walter doing his French accent).

I think the rewatch helped. One of the reasons why I disliked what I saw was alleviated when I realised that some (not all) of the issues I had with the color tones of some of the scenes were artificial and caused by a lousy stream compression. Also, there are some details of the Fireman's place that you can quickly forget about or miss altogether unless you do a rewatch. I am mostly talking about two here: the large machine-filled room (you see it when Fireman kicks Mr. C out), and two openings in the ceiling when Andy is being told the complete story, since only one of the ceilings is used, the other one is not. This particular scene is highly symbolic, and is a real gem.

At this point in time, I think I do understand what they were ultimately trying to portray, but as was pointed out very early on, "it cannot be said aloud now". I can see why they retconned Sarah (it is a retcon in my book), I wish they did not do it, but the story (as I now understand it) had asked for it (as well for the lack of Leland), so I can live with that part.

Ultimately, I did not like the Dougie arc, I understood it had to be there and that it had great potential, I just think it did not deliver, especially knowing how it all ended, in particular how Dougie woke up in the end. Las Vegas part of the Return may have had all the funny parts (and some of them were really funny!). Back then, I did not like the fact that they kept Dougie slamming into doors, but one of the later parts gives a bit of a hint: Dougie tries the same hand waving motion that he is now using in the lodge to open the curtain passage, ergo he is still not really out of the lodge or has not yet adjusted to the fact that he is "out" of it. Also remember how Dougie wanders around the hallway on the first floor of their LV home as Sunny Jim is reading before going to sleep, he is simply still acting as if he were in the lodge. So with respect to LV parts, I am more or less at where I was before.

Mr.C: the same. Pointless plot, not going anywhere, useless arm wrestling match, useless coordinates, cow jumped over the moon, Todd and Ike. The rewatch helped with Chantal and Hutch, when I realised that they were set up as dark mirrors of Andy and Lucy. It was Chantal who was supposed to take out Dougie ("he looks just like our boss"), and it was Lucy that disposed of Mr C. We first saw the contrast as work in FWWM with Fat Trout's as a dilapidated mirror image of TP with non-cooperative local police force, etc, while here we see Chantal and Hutch as a highly mobile version of Andy and Lucy, where the latter likely never left TP, and Chantal and Hutch seemingly have no permanent fixture. I saw it all (and then wrote in the parts discussion) that Andy and Lucy represented a more sedentary aspect (hence them looking to buy a chair) vs. chaotic and ever-moving other pole: stability vs. movement, order vs. chaos. Waves crashing the mountain in the Purple World, two poles and forces eternally going against each other. I wrote more on it, including Wally, in the parts threads.

TP parts were bleak, nothing special, and I was not disappointed there. Yes, I do not think we need to know of armpit rash of random characters. I now consider the musical acts to be Audrey's dream scenes, and I really, really liked how the Veils one was done. Au Revoir Simone were great too. The green glove is just hideous. I used to play Doom, and when you ran out of ammo you could find yourself fighting a cacodemon with your base fists, that about sums it up.

But what mostly disappointed me back then, and I think I am still profoundly disappointed with (and maybe even more than back then, where these even then bugged me a lot), is what Lynch did with Gordon Cole and that whole "cossacks, smoking with Diane, fine bottle of Red Bordeau, French escort, not being soft where it mattered", and maybe some other monstrosities I luckily no longer remember. It is such a gigantic waste of opportunity to make best use of a chance that was given, and may never come around again, what a shame.
Very detailed and interesting post. I also didn't like the direction they took with Sarah or with most of the original characters (just commended on a very good post by WhiteLodge90 who addressed this in more detail in this thread - http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4013 ). Interesting about Chantal and Hutch being a dark version of Lucy and Andy, will have to keep that in mind, as I really hated those characters, which was especially annoying for me as I love Jennifer Jason Leigh and wish she had been given a much better character to play.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
boske
Great Northern Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:32 am
boske wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:28 am first half of part 17 including that new scene that they discovered and put in, Ottis and Buella, Cooper
Still reading your post, but what scene was this?
It was the scene where Jaqcues, Ronette, and Leo were sitting on the trunk of a car drinking beer, I never saw that one before.
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

Oh yes. Was it actually a new scene or just reframed - so it was a deleted scene from FWWM held back from The Missing Pieces? I wonder if there's more. I thought it was new, but that scene and part was so disorientating the way Cooper was watching Laura from the side, and Lee filmed in a wig to look like younger Laura, that I couldn't fully tell what was new, what was old, and what was reframed/reedited.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
boske
Great Northern Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:39 am Interesting about Chantal and Hutch being a dark version of Lucy and Andy, will have to keep that in mind, as I really hated those characters, which was especially annoying for me as I love Jennifer Jason Leigh and wish she had been given a much better character to play.
Yes, based on how Wally was portrayed, and what Andy and Lucy stood for compared to Hutch and Chantal, it made me think that Andy is not Wally Brando's father. This may be silly or a stretch, but I cannot think of other reason why they wasted 5 minutes on Wally other than to, in a veiled way, let us know of it. :-)
User avatar
boske
Great Northern Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:43 am Oh yes. Was it actually a new scene or just reframed - so it was a deleted scene from FWWM held back from The Missing Pieces? I wonder if there's more. I thought it was new, but that scene and part was so disorientating the way Cooper was watching Laura from the side, and Lee filmed in a wig to look like younger Laura, that I couldn't fully tell what was new, what was old, and what was reframed/reedited.
That I do not know, but I do not recall seeing it before. It was not in the movie (FWWM) proper, someone else here would know for sure.
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

boske wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:47 am
Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:39 am Interesting about Chantal and Hutch being a dark version of Lucy and Andy, will have to keep that in mind, as I really hated those characters, which was especially annoying for me as I love Jennifer Jason Leigh and wish she had been given a much better character to play.
Yes, based on how Wally was portrayed, and what Andy and Lucy stood for compared to Hutch and Chantal, it made me think that Andy is not Wally Brando's father. This may be silly or a stretch, but I cannot think of other reason why they wasted 5 minutes on Wally other than to, in a veiled way, let us know of it. :-)
I get what you're saying about them being dark versions or mirrors of Andy and Lucy, and I like this idea a lot. But the Wally thing I'm not sure about - you think he's meant to be Chantal and Hutch's son? Hmm, it's an interesting theory if so, but one I'm less sure about. Then again, I never paid much attention to the Wally character anyway. I thought the monologue was just a throwaway scene, vaguely humorous (mostly due to the reactions of the other characters, the way Andy and Lucy gazed at him so lovingly, and Frank Truman's bemused facial expressions), somewhat annoying. Never thought much of it again lol.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
boske
Great Northern Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:01 am
boske wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:47 am
Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:39 am Interesting about Chantal and Hutch being a dark version of Lucy and Andy, will have to keep that in mind, as I really hated those characters, which was especially annoying for me as I love Jennifer Jason Leigh and wish she had been given a much better character to play.
Yes, based on how Wally was portrayed, and what Andy and Lucy stood for compared to Hutch and Chantal, it made me think that Andy is not Wally Brando's father. This may be silly or a stretch, but I cannot think of other reason why they wasted 5 minutes on Wally other than to, in a veiled way, let us know of it. :-)
I get what you're saying about them being dark versions or mirrors of Andy and Lucy, and I like this idea a lot. But the Wally thing I'm not sure about - you think he's meant to be Chantal and Hutch's son? Hmm, it's an interesting theory if so, but one I'm less sure about. Then again, I never paid much attention to the Wally character anyway. I thought the monologue was just a throwaway scene, vaguely humorous (mostly due to the reactions of the other characters, the way Andy and Lucy gazed at him so lovingly, and Frank Truman's bemused facial expressions), somewhat annoying. Never thought much of it again lol.
No, I meant that he was probably Dick Tremeyne's son, if this logic I came up with here had any merit.
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

Oh. That could make sense.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
Cappy
Great Northern Member
Posts: 521
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:27 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Cappy »

Re: Wally's parentage

Never thought about Wally being the offspring of Chantal/Hutch, but maybe that could work?

I honestly didn't put much thought into Wally's origin until I noticed that bizarre photo of Lucy and Andy with a weird baby doll, behind Lucy's desk in the police station. Maybe it's not implausible that Wally isn't the child Lucy was carrying in the original series...

Re-watching Wally's big monologue now, I can't help but think his declaration of letting his parents turn his childhood room into a study is some meta-commentary about fans letting (or not letting) Lynch and Frost renovate a beloved thing from our collective youths ('Twin Peaks').

Also, interesting how his speech functions as a kind of generalized summation of Agent Cooper's journey ("my shadow is always with me" on his cross country travels).
LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by LateReg »

Cappy wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 5:35 am Re: Wally's parentage

Never thought about Wally being the offspring of Chantal/Hutch, but maybe that could work?

I honestly didn't put much thought into Wally's origin until I noticed that bizarre photo of Lucy and Andy with a weird baby doll, behind Lucy's desk in the police station. Maybe it's not implausible that Wally isn't the child Lucy was carrying in the original series...

Re-watching Wally's big monologue now, I can't help but think his declaration of letting his parents turn his childhood room into a study is some meta-commentary about fans letting (or not letting) Lynch and Frost renovate a beloved thing from our collective youths ('Twin Peaks').

Also, interesting how his speech functions as a kind of generalized summation of Agent Cooper's journey ("my shadow is always with me" on his cross country travels).
Yes, good ideas. Wally Brando is probably the most harmlessly polarizing aspect of The Return, but I have no idea why. Then again, some were against Cera being in it from the start...and again, I have no idea why. I also remember a few people saying how it probably took a bunch of takes and the reactions seemed labored, but they read it wrong because we now know that Cera knocked it out in a single take and then did a second just to make sure all was good; Cera's great and the scene is funny.

Fwiw Lynch was very excited about telling his actors who was playing Andy and Lucy's child, so as much as I like Boske's read into Wally's wanderlust, I think he's probably Andy and Lucy's, and not Dick's....but one never knows. it always surprises me when viewers write off Wally, specifically because his dialogue seems absolutely loaded with meaning...beginning with the fact that more than almost any other scene it explicitly references Frost's Secret History book, the idea of westward expansion, Lewis and Clark, etc., and thereby serves as a mirror of Cooper's journey and thereby America's. It's a roadmap of some of the show's ideas, for sure, and offers means for further exploration, beyond its reference to multiple classic films (which also fits right into the Twin Peaks universe).
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3680
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

LateReg wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:24 am
Cappy wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 5:35 am Re: Wally's parentage

Never thought about Wally being the offspring of Chantal/Hutch, but maybe that could work?

I honestly didn't put much thought into Wally's origin until I noticed that bizarre photo of Lucy and Andy with a weird baby doll, behind Lucy's desk in the police station. Maybe it's not implausible that Wally isn't the child Lucy was carrying in the original series...

Re-watching Wally's big monologue now, I can't help but think his declaration of letting his parents turn his childhood room into a study is some meta-commentary about fans letting (or not letting) Lynch and Frost renovate a beloved thing from our collective youths ('Twin Peaks').

Also, interesting how his speech functions as a kind of generalized summation of Agent Cooper's journey ("my shadow is always with me" on his cross country travels).
Yes, good ideas. Wally Brando is probably the most harmlessly polarizing aspect of The Return, but I have no idea why. Then again, some were against Cera being in it from the start...and again, I have no idea why. I also remember a few people saying how it probably took a bunch of takes and the reactions seemed labored, but they read it wrong because we now know that Cera knocked it out in a single take and then did a second just to make sure all was good; Cera's great and the scene is funny.

Fwiw Lynch was very excited about telling his actors who was playing Andy and Lucy's child, so as much as I like Boske's read into Wally's wanderlust, I think he's probably Andy and Lucy's, and not Dick's....but one never knows. it always surprises me when viewers write off Wally, specifically because his dialogue seems absolutely loaded with meaning...beginning with the fact that more than almost any other scene it explicitly references Frost's Secret History book, the idea of westward expansion, Lewis and Clark, etc., and thereby serves as a mirror of Cooper's journey. It's a roadmap of some of the show's ideas, for sure, and offers means for further exploration, beyond its reference to multiple classic films (which also fits right into the Twin Peaks universe).
I hated the Wally scene at first (and I like Cera and was fine with him being in the show!). It just felt like such a belabored bit, with an impression of a celebrity who’s been impersonated to death.

I like it now, though. Forster’s reaction shots make it for me more than anything else, but Cera is good too.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Tue May 04, 2021 6:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3680
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

boske wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:53 am
Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:43 am Oh yes. Was it actually a new scene or just reframed - so it was a deleted scene from FWWM held back from The Missing Pieces? I wonder if there's more. I thought it was new, but that scene and part was so disorientating the way Cooper was watching Laura from the side, and Lee filmed in a wig to look like younger Laura, that I couldn't fully tell what was new, what was old, and what was reframed/reedited.
That I do not know, but I do not recall seeing it before. It was not in the movie (FWWM) proper, someone else here would know for sure.
The scene of them by the Corvette is in the movie proper (it’s when Laura meets up with them...the shot pans from her coming out of the woods to them). But P17 does have several “new” closeups of them that hadn’t been seen before (as well as a little additional footage of Pete walking from the Pilot).
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Tue May 04, 2021 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

I was just asking that question again when you replied to it lol. Makes you wonder how much other footage Lynch has of FWWM (and the original series) that we've never seen. Even just different takes/angles/close-ups. Intriguing.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3680
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:41 am I was just asking that question again when you replied to it lol. Makes you wonder how much other footage Lynch has of FWWM (and the original series) that we've never seen. Even just different takes/angles/close-ups. Intriguing.
I don’t think he held much back from TMP. I’m sure there are alternate takes and angles, but not much significant. The biggest thing I can think of is the train car scene, which was heavily edited to be more impressionistic/suggestive as opposed to overtly violent. I wonder if the missing footage from that still exists.

I don’t think Lynch personally has any footage from the original series beyond the Pilot. It’s possible he has some stuff from his other episodes, but doesn’t seem like it based on what has been released/used.
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

I like the Wally Brando bit. It kinda fits w 'old hollywood' being a part of a communal dream place.

and sorta fits a pattern, Sailor's snakeskin jacket in WAH, eerily reminiscent of Brando's in The Fugitive Kind.
Locked