Differing Views on The Return

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To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
7
30%
More disappointed.
5
22%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
1
4%
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
1
4%
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
2
9%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
1
4%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
2
9%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
1
4%
I now love The Return completely.
1
4%
Other - explain in comments.
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23
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enumbs
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by enumbs »

Brad D wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:16 am Over time, it has felt like it’s increasingly hard to discuss the Return because many people staunchly defend it in absolutist ways,
Yet here it was you who critiqued the show in an absolutist way, stating that it wasn’t just a subjective failure, but that it didn’t play fair with the audience. I questioned this in a perfectly civil manner, and you responded extremely rudely. Of course it’s hard to discuss The Return if you choose to respond to alternate views by sarcastically conceding defeat, telling people to leave you alone, mischaracterising opposing arguments, and generally acting as though you’re being persecuted or shut down.

Brad D wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:16 am there are plenty of great moments - yet when dealing with many on here, that’s not enough. Literally had people say I’m not a fan :lol Just my experience.
I’ve repeatedly made a point of saying I respect your opinion and that it is as legitimate as mine or any other. I’ve seen other posters doing the same. So where are these people who are insisting you worship the show?

There is an interesting conversation to be had regarding the James Bond comparison and expectations from entertainment on general, but It is obvious that whatever I say will just be interpreted as the words of a Lynch zealot who insists everyone adore season 3 and harasses those who don’t.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

Brad D wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:16 am Derolli summed it up pretty succinctly. My feelings about the Return are complex. I don’t hate it. Definitely don’t love it. It is almost like a very strained relationship with a person. That sounds ridiculous because it is a tv show after all, no more.

Over time, it has felt like it’s increasingly hard to discuss the Return because many people staunchly defend it in absolutist ways, treating it as high art that is above something more pragmatic or commercial—and I’m just kind of tired of dealing with those people. I absolutely understand why people love it, I see certain qualities, an invitation for endless theory and possibility — but I also feel like Lynch has certain contempt for TP, which is pretty blatant in the final product. I forgot about the James Bond reasoning, and still feel that’s applicable.

Aside from the folks who have rated TR high on letterbox, I truly do wonder how the series resonates outside the core fan base and the critical world. I’ve yet to meet many in that realm that finished the Return, which is a bummer, because I love discussing it, for all my annoyances with it. And as I’ve said before many times, there are plenty of great moments - yet when dealing with many on here, that’s not enough. Literally had people say I’m not a fan :lol Just my experience.
I don't think this is just confined to The Return or Twin Peaks.

I've seen the same type of arguments on IMDB over a number of TV Shows/movies.

I have heard the battles over the Lost ending are legendary. And the battles over the new Star Wars Force Awakens- it was very sad to see the back and forth on that one.

As for what the rest of the world thinks, it is probably irrelevant. Twin Peaks is a cult phenomenon ever since about mid-Season 2, and it's creators have shown no inclination to 'popularize' it, so it will boil down to keeping the core audience happy and buying new products.

The moment that the opening scene of Season 2 flashed across the screen with Senor Droolcup, TP's inevitable journey to cult fandom began and it has never really looked back.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Brad D »

enumbs wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:26 am
Yet here it was you who critiqued the show in an absolutist way, stating that it wasn’t just a subjective failure, but that it didn’t play fair with the audience. I questioned this in a perfectly civil manner, and you responded extremely rudely. Of course it’s hard to discuss The Return if you choose to respond to alternate views by sarcastically conceding defeat, telling people to leave you alone, mischaracterising opposing arguments, and generally acting as though you’re being persecuted or shut down.

I’ve repeatedly made a point of saying I respect your opinion and that it is as legitimate as mine or any other. I’ve seen other posters doing the same. So where are these people who are insisting you worship the show?
Anyone who listened to my podcast can tell you my criticisms in real time were not absolutist. I called it down the middle, I enjoyed most of it until the end of 17, and it fell like a house of cards for me. I’ve literally said in this thread I enjoyed some of it, and understand why some love it. If that’s absolutist, we can agree to disagree.

I have not kept a list of people insisting I worship the show, I’m speaking in general terms of my experience and certain others who have shared theirs.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by enumbs »

Again, you’re responding to something that wasn’t said. It was one specific point you made that was absolutist, and it has been explained about 5 times now, probably best by AXX°N N.

Nobody said your broader critique of the show was absolutist. My respect for your opinion of the show is another thing I’ve expressed multiple times. I don’t know why a fairly straightforward quibble provoked this bitterness and frustration, but here we are.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by enumbs »

In the spirit of the thread, here are a few criticisms I have of season 3. I obviously adored the season, so they’re all pretty trivial I’m afraid.
  • The digital effect of Laura being pulled from the red room feels too much like a jpeg being dragged. I normally like the Gilliam-esque effects, but this one undercuts the gravity of the moment for me.

    The punchline of the scene outside Ruth Davenport’s apartment - “I’ve got her key!” - feels a bit too obvious.

    I don’t like the feeling of Ben’s office in the first of his scenes. The evening lighting is more atmospheric, but here it just feels like a set.

    I dislike Albert checking out Tammy and making a crass quip. Feels true for Gordon to behave that way, but Albert is better as a deadpan counterpoint such as in the scene in Part 12. I also dislike Chrysta Bell’s childish reading of the line “You told me to”.

    I remain baffled by the use of green screen in the car scene with the FBI crew. The fact it’s a goofy, comic scene helps, but it’s still a strange choice to me.

    The autotune on “No Stars” is unfortunate.

    Ike the Spike is not played by a good enough actor to make his reaction to the broken spike as funny as it should be.

    Some of the lines in the Denise scene feel misjudged to me, particularly the bit about “screaming hormones”.

    The choice to show Dougie at home with his son between the scene of him going out for a night with the Mitchums and the scene of him returning to the office feels sloppy to me - less an indication of time slipping out of balance and more a choice made to ensure MacLachlan appears in each episode.

    This is completely understandable considering the circumstances of filming, but I always wish there were some changes of lighting, camera angles or costume to differentiate Log Lady scenes.
I’m sure more nitpicks will come to me later, but that’s all I can think of for now.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Histeria »

enumbs wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:18 am
Ike the Spike is not played by a good enough actor to make his reaction to the broken spike as funny as it should be.
That whole scene was horrifically misguided, gratuitous, humiliating and cruel.

I'm usually able to defend Lynch's work against accusations of misogyny because I generally feel it's justified in the text.

But that scene makes me deeply uncomfortable for all the wrong reasons. And it's my biggest problem with The Return.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Audrey Horne »

Was this heated debate all about the semantics of the term, “play ball with the audience?” C’mon, it’s a broad and general term related to this show used for short term for what we all know without compiling a twenty paragraph explanation. Showtime’s ad campaign of classic images leading up to the show reinforces it- even if that is independent of Lynch and Frost’s vision. The term is in the same realm as “subvert expectations” - we all basically understand what we’re talking about.

If we’re on this forum it’s because we are all really passionate about this show. If you are disappointed, you read about people’s love for it and roll your eyes, and vice versa. This thread should be a haven for people to complain about it.

In this safe place, I would probably want to speak broadly with statements like-

David Lynch and Mark Frost are dumb for making the Return so incredibly dull and slow, and not using Cooper as Cooper or Audrey as an FBI agent.

It’s a venting statement, that unless it gets really mean and nasty and personal, I would hope the reader doesn’t think I really think Lynch and Frost are dumb.

My example isn’t really thought out, but basically my point is if we nitpick generalized semantics, we will never get to bitch about this show properly.*

Back to things I want to complain about-

Every scene was sluggish and self important- it felt like I was watching a first year film student make an important movie, every single frame, or just read his first book of poetry.
All these wonderful actors felt confined and the directorial choices sucked out any spontaneity and zip to add to the characters.
Script doctors needed to come in and rework the dialogue- the first season of Peaks had first rate bouncy scripts that were up there with the best of Golden era Hollywood.

Ahhh, it feels good to occasionally bitch about this show, I’ve missed you all!

*I chosen the word, “properly” as a test to see if it will be a page and a half of its usage.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by enumbs »

Audrey Horne wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:46 am In this safe place, I would probably want to speak broadly with statements like-

David Lynch and Mark Frost are dumb for making the Return so incredibly dull and slow, and not using Cooper as Cooper or Audrey as an FBI agent.

It’s a venting statement, that unless it gets really mean and nasty and personal, I would hope the reader doesn’t think I really think Lynch and Frost are dumb.
Totally, but I think it would be fair for someone to respond to that kind of comment with a differing opinion. I probably wouldn’t do that, as that conversation has been had more than enough times, but the suggestion that the show broke some kind of implicit contract with the audience surely invites debate? I don’t see how it’s out of line to point out that a part of the audience loved the very things that others felt betrayed by. The conversation was in no way heated until the other poster took offence.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

Audrey Horne wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:46 am
Every scene was sluggish and self important- it felt like I was watching a first year film student make an important movie, every single frame, or just read his first book of poetry.
All these wonderful actors felt confined and the directorial choices sucked out any spontaneity and zip to add to the characters.
Script doctors needed to come in and rework the dialogue- the first season of Peaks had first rate bouncy scripts that were up there with the best of Golden era Hollywood.
I feel like Lost Highway onwards, it seems Lynch has been really pushed for stylized performances. Even in The Straight Story, though Farnsworth's performance is pretty traditional, the pauses are awkward, a lot of delayed responses, slow and deliberate dialogue line deliveries.

That first season gloss of Twin Peaks where the performances had more spontaneity and characters had zip and felt alive, seems like something Lynch has moved away from.

perhaps, the most traditionally / realistically performed scene in Mulholland is the audition scene Watts does.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Histeria »

JackwithOneEye wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:50 am
Audrey Horne wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:46 am
Every scene was sluggish and self important- it felt like I was watching a first year film student make an important movie, every single frame, or just read his first book of poetry.
All these wonderful actors felt confined and the directorial choices sucked out any spontaneity and zip to add to the characters.
Script doctors needed to come in and rework the dialogue- the first season of Peaks had first rate bouncy scripts that were up there with the best of Golden era Hollywood.
I feel like Lost Highway onwards, it seems Lynch has been really pushed for stylized performances. Even in The Straight Story, though Farnsworth's performance is pretty traditional, the pauses are awkward, a lot of delayed responses, slow and deliberate dialogue line deliveries.

That first season gloss of Twin Peaks where the performances had more spontaneity and characters had zip and felt alive, seems like something Lynch has moved away from.

perhaps, the most traditionally / realistically performed scene in Mulholland is the audition scene Watts does.

I felt this stylised dialogue was mostly confined to the town of Twin Peaks, with scenes elsewhere having more zip and vim (though there are outliers to both).

But my perception may not be accurate. Calls for a rewatch.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by enumbs »

The Mitchums were pretty zippy by Peaks standards.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

JackwithOneEye wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:50 am

I feel like Lost Highway onwards, it seems Lynch has been really pushed for stylized performances. Even in The Straight Story, though Farnsworth's performance is pretty traditional, the pauses are awkward, a lot of delayed responses, slow and deliberate dialogue line deliveries.

That first season gloss of Twin Peaks where the performances had more spontaneity and characters had zip and felt alive, seems like something Lynch has moved away from.

perhaps, the most traditionally / realistically performed scene in Mulholland is the audition scene Watts does.
I mean, the stylized performances / delayed responses go all the way back to Eraserhead and his earlier short films. I think he went through a period of trying to be more “mainstream” in the Blue Velvet / original TP period, and then returned to his roots.

I also wouldn't call the performances in the original TP “realistic” by any standard. Cooper in particular was extremely stylized, just in a different way.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

There's also Grace Zabriskie's sobbing in the Pilot that has the anecdotes about viewers (including at screenings) not knowing how to respond to it. That actually pops into my head first when I think of deliberately stylizied Lynch performances. I've also had reactions when showing the Pilot to others that included words like "sluggish" and "excruciating" and it seems to filter a lot of potential fans out from proceeding.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Audrey Horne »

Yea, I was just trying to get the conversation away from us potentially fighting.

I don’t mean the performance in the Return differ in style from earlier seasons in terms of realism or style. Most of the best movies from the masters for almost a hundred years are stylized- and goes through periods of what’s in vogue in between more Method naturalism, Kitchen sink acting, and theatrical. My problem was every character rhythm felt sluggish and labored even if it was supposed to be a breezier scene. Compiled scene after scene with the same tone felt sleepy all the time… and not in an ethereal dream mode. Some scenes needed some His Girl Friday pacing.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by derOlli. »

Histeria wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:38 am
enumbs wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:18 am
Ike the Spike is not played by a good enough actor to make his reaction to the broken spike as funny as it should be.
That whole scene was horrifically misguided, gratuitous, humiliating and cruel.

I'm usually able to defend Lynch's work against accusations of misogyny because I generally feel it's justified in the text.

But that scene makes me deeply uncomfortable for all the wrong reasons. And it's my biggest problem with The Return.
About that... I was actually goung to revive the "Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return"-thread, but as there is a discussion here already....
Not only do I view this scene as indefensable, I see it as a pathway to a more critical view on the gender dynamics in The Return in general.

There is this whole argument that the excessive and sever brutality towards female bodies in The Return were a deliberate attempt to criticize gendered violence by confronting the viewer with it. And I get that and it was very much my first reflex watching it back in 2017. With this scene, however, that whole line of reasoning falls flat as it was quite obviously played for laughs. Having to admit that, this made me suspicous about the portrayal of women in The Return in general. A portrayal, where ton of women are framed as victims with no agency (and - having read a little in the old threads, I know this word 'agency' pushes some people's buttons, but it is how I, and others, see these narratives), where women's dead bodies are framed as sexy, where old women are not particularly seen as desirable but at best motherly (at worst as pathetic) while young women are very much reduced to their beauty and objectified by the older men and so on and so forth.

Why is the Ike the spike scene funny and why should it be OK to have scene be funny?

So much for getting away from us potentially fighting, but I would really like other people's viewpoints on this (or at least I think I do, promised!).
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