Differing Views on The Return

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To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
7
30%
More disappointed.
5
22%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
1
4%
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
1
4%
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
2
9%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
1
4%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
2
9%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
1
4%
I now love The Return completely.
1
4%
Other - explain in comments.
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23
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Jonah
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Differing Views on The Return

Post by Jonah »

As things currently stand, The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group has been dormant for at least three years (since 2018). Just wondering how people who were a part of it feel now? (I might add more options to the poll depending on the comments, but for now have added all the choices I could think of and an "other" option too.)


Link to original Disappointed Support Group thread:
http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3544


Edit: The thread title has been changed. This was originally set up to simply ask the Disappointed Support Group if they were still disappointed - that poll is still a part of this thread, but it has changed, much like the original Disappointed Support Group, into a thread of differing views.
Last edited by Jonah on Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
Agent Earle
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Agent Earle »

I'm one of those that this topic adresses, I guess :) I could give you my answer but since I haven't seen The Return since it aired (and I've only seen it that one time; I haven't been doing any rewatches, not even of particular scenes, sans a few of them from episodes 1 and 2 during those first few hectic days, that's how strong my disappointment with it all has remained), it would just be going off my initial - now almost 4 years-old! - impressions, and I don't think that would be fair to the show and its creators. So I'll wait with the reply until I do a complete rewatch somewhere down the line - I don't have any idea when that'll be (maybe I'm waiting to embark on it until S4 is officially announced, so I'll be watching it knowing there'd be a continuation :)), so I hope this forum will still be here when I get to it.

P.S.: I'm really enjoying what you're doing on the forum, Jonah. Giving the "Keeping the Flame Alive" reward to you should be a no-brainer!
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Jonah
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

Agent Earle wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:30 am I'm one of those that this topic adresses, I guess :) I could give you my answer but since I haven't seen The Return since it aired (and I've only seen it that one time; I haven't been doing any rewatches, not even of particular scenes, sans a few of them from episodes 1 and 2 during those first few hectic days, that's how strong my disappointment with it all has remained), it would just be going off my initial - now almost 4 years-old! - impressions, and I don't think that would be fair to the show and its creators. So I'll wait with the reply until I do a complete rewatch somewhere down the line - I don't have any idea when that'll be (maybe I'm waiting to embark on it until S4 is officially announced, so I'll be watching it knowing there'd be a continuation :)), so I hope this forum will still be here when I get to it.

P.S.: I'm really enjoying what you're doing on the forum, Jonah. Giving the "Keeping the Flame Alive" reward to you should be a no-brainer!
I created a new choice for you - "I need to rewatch before I vote" - if you still want to vote lol! And thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it. Aside from reddit, this is the only forum I use. I'm glad to see it's still fairly active at times, not like it was, but it's still fairly active considering most forums aren't anymore. I too hope it sticks around.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
Agent Earle
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Agent Earle »

Jonah wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:55 am
Agent Earle wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:30 am I'm one of those that this topic adresses, I guess :) I could give you my answer but since I haven't seen The Return since it aired (and I've only seen it that one time; I haven't been doing any rewatches, not even of particular scenes, sans a few of them from episodes 1 and 2 during those first few hectic days, that's how strong my disappointment with it all has remained), it would just be going off my initial - now almost 4 years-old! - impressions, and I don't think that would be fair to the show and its creators. So I'll wait with the reply until I do a complete rewatch somewhere down the line - I don't have any idea when that'll be (maybe I'm waiting to embark on it until S4 is officially announced, so I'll be watching it knowing there'd be a continuation :)), so I hope this forum will still be here when I get to it.

P.S.: I'm really enjoying what you're doing on the forum, Jonah. Giving the "Keeping the Flame Alive" reward to you should be a no-brainer!
I created a new choice for you - "I need to rewatch before I vote" - if you still want to vote lol! And thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it. Aside from reddit, this is the only forum I use. I'm glad to see it's still fairly active at times, not like it was, but it's still fairly active considering most forums aren't anymore. I too hope it sticks around.
Voted!
Kilmoore
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Kilmoore »

I am. There is no plot, the characters are irrelevant and the connections to earlier Twin Peaks tenuous at best. I remain convinced Lynch just wanted to do his own art project about Dougie and to get the budget, he scibbled the words "Twin Peaks" on the cover of the pitch.
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Jonah
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

I think he wanted to do both - continue Twin Peaks (as evinced by scenes such as giving Norma and Big Ed a happy ending) and do his own original style show (which is why a lot of it feels Mulholland Drive-like to me, maybe even Inland Empire at times). I still consider it the David Lynch Variety Show that heavily samples Twin Peaks. I was a bit disappointed definitely and I prefer the original series, but overall I accept it as its own thing with some moments I do really like.

I think the original script and the 9-hour plan might have produced a less kitchen sink/variety product - a tighter, more focused limited series. Lynch added like 200-300 pages to the script he had written with Frost. But even Frost made some odd choices (to me anyway) so I don't think it would ever have felt like the original series or a direct Season 3. I always thought it was strange how they were so dismissive of some characters (Leland, the original plan for Audrey) yet so considerate of others (the Log Lady, acknowledging deceased cast members) and the decision to open it up to a wider canvass always seemed so bizarre to me - Frost said something like wanting to get away from the sleepy hamlet town, but the whole point of the show (to me anyway) was that we wanted to explore that sleepy town which wasn't so sleepy! Some of the Vegas stuff is fun, but they took it too far - and I think it would have been more fun and a better show staying in the town itself.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
LateReg
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by LateReg »

Jonah wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:21 am Lynch added like 200-300 pages to the script he had written with Frost. But even Frost made some odd choices (to me anyway) so I don't think it would ever have felt like the original series or a direct Season 3.
Pardon my faulty memory, but where are you getting these specific numbers from, or the knowledge of which specific choices are Frost's? Unless you're just talking about the few ideas that Frost has claimed in interviews of course, then I get that. But Lynch writing a whole additional 300 pages seems crazy to me.
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JackwithOneEye
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

The length of the copyrighted script is 389 pages from July 2015. Principal Photography started in like September, 2015 - so it's possible in those months, Lynch added material while Frost was writing his book. In conversations with MF, he says Lynch added material, but I dunno how much.

In the Deakins podcast, Peter Deming says the script was 550 pages, but that could be hyperbole/ faulty memory and he implies his access to the full script was a bit limited. I think I saw a picture of a binder that contained the script somewhere in Dean Hurley's social media, but I forget if he listed a specific length.
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JackwithOneEye
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

+ it's possible when it became more of a shooting script, it became padded out with screen directions, and whatnot.

I think the Return is my favorite of the three seasons. it's so pure dream logic.

I will always love the Pilot the most, it captures sudden loss/grief/mourning in a visceral way that I've never seen so close to reality in a film or show before or since, only maybe 'The Son's Room' or 'In the Bedroom', come close for me.

I think of all the fantasy /phantasmagorical elements in the Return as just magical realism.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by LateReg »

Yes, that all checks out, and I'm aware that Lynch added material. But I continue to feel that the mythical "9-hour" original version is taken far too seriously in evaluation of "what went wrong," so to speak; of course it would have been tighter, but it might have had even less Twin Peaks in it, and we don't actually know if Lynch ever intended on filming a 9-hour version, and we forget that Lynch can turn one page into a ten minute scene. So there's really no telling how many pages he added, or if any were truly added without Frost's approval, for whatever that's worth.

As far as what Twin Peaks is, some think it's a place and that's fair because it is! But I believe Lynch/Frost think of it as a state of mind and a creative playground, and that's why they made The Return in this way, which makes perfect sense to me.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Frost has said that he always knew that Lynch would turn the half-page description of the nuclear bomb test into something way more (I’m not going to check how long it ended up being right now, but I think at least ten minutes). I think it’s commonly understood that, yes, scenes were added/changed (with Mark’s approval), but a lot of scenes just lasted a LOT longer than their page counts would indicate because of Lynch’s unconventional pacing. That’s always been his MO (see Eraserhead). So we can’t infer a number of script pages added, in a conventional sense, from the runtime. That was the whole point of the budget dispute/walkaway: Showtime didn’t understand that Lynch’s runtime does not relate to script page count in the conventional Hollywood sense.
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JackwithOneEye
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

yeah, f the 9 hour version.

yeah, it coulda be tighter. Inland Empire coulda been 90 minutes too.

something like Jeanne Dielman coulda been a half hour short, and gotten the major story points across,
but,
i think experiencing time and duration carries with it a certain kind of sensory and meditative experience,
where the viewer almost feels trapped in the dream.

if Lynch wanted to keep making tightly edited straight forward just-the-facts films like The Elephant Man,
he could have, but loose and dreamy is what he's been working towards, and he evidently really tired of 2 hr features.
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Jonah
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

LateReg wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:57 pm
Jonah wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:21 am Lynch added like 200-300 pages to the script he had written with Frost. But even Frost made some odd choices (to me anyway) so I don't think it would ever have felt like the original series or a direct Season 3.
Pardon my faulty memory, but where are you getting these specific numbers from, or the knowledge of which specific choices are Frost's? Unless you're just talking about the few ideas that Frost has claimed in interviews of course, then I get that. But Lynch writing a whole additional 300 pages seems crazy to me.
I overestimated a bit - I just meant the difference between the copyrighted script and what it was later revealed to be, if accurate.

In terms of the choices, I meant the original storyline in general - Frost wanting to move the show out of what he called the "sleepy hamlet", the whole Dougie / "Being There" arc, the drugs in the town and the other core ideas that obviously weren't added by Lynch but seems to have been part of the early script, the basic premise and core ideas basically. Lynch might have added stuff like the roadhouse conversation sequences (I'm guessing) and other stuff but it seems fairly certain larger arcs and core plots were part of the original script.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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boske
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

I am still disappointed. Profoundly? Overall maybe not as much, but for more mundane reasons, enough time has passed since then that it does not sting as much as it did back then. And there are parts that I really like, both back then and now: the Purple World, Mr. C going to the "Dutchman's", Fireman's place, cherry pie restaurant scene, first half of part 17 including that new scene that they discovered and put in, Ottis and Buella, Cooper taking Laura/Carries back, and probably a few more. And another chance to hear more of Angelo's music, of course. I even liked the floor-sweeping scene (it is always great to see late Walter doing his French accent).

I think the rewatch helped. One of the reasons why I disliked what I saw was alleviated when I realised that some (not all) of the issues I had with the color tones of some of the scenes were artificial and caused by a lousy stream compression. Also, there are some details of the Fireman's place that you can quickly forget about or miss altogether unless you do a rewatch. I am mostly talking about two here: the large machine-filled room (you see it when Fireman kicks Mr. C out), and two openings in the ceiling when Andy is being told the complete story, since only one of the ceilings is used, the other one is not. This particular scene is highly symbolic, and is a real gem.

At this point in time, I think I do understand what they were ultimately trying to portray, but as was pointed out very early on, "it cannot be said aloud now". I can see why they retconned Sarah (it is a retcon in my book), I wish they did not do it, but the story (as I now understand it) had asked for it (as well for the lack of Leland), so I can live with that part.

Ultimately, I did not like the Dougie arc, I understood it had to be there and that it had great potential, I just think it did not deliver, especially knowing how it all ended, in particular how Dougie woke up in the end. Las Vegas part of the Return may have had all the funny parts (and some of them were really funny!). Back then, I did not like the fact that they kept Dougie slamming into doors, but one of the later parts gives a bit of a hint: Dougie tries the same hand waving motion that he is now using in the lodge to open the curtain passage, ergo he is still not really out of the lodge or has not yet adjusted to the fact that he is "out" of it. Also remember how Dougie wanders around the hallway on the first floor of their LV home as Sunny Jim is reading before going to sleep, he is simply still acting as if he were in the lodge. So with respect to LV parts, I am more or less at where I was before.

Mr.C: the same. Pointless plot, not going anywhere, useless arm wrestling match, useless coordinates, cow jumped over the moon, Todd and Ike. The rewatch helped with Chantal and Hutch, when I realised that they were set up as dark mirrors of Andy and Lucy. It was Chantal who was supposed to take out Dougie ("he looks just like our boss"), and it was Lucy that disposed of Mr C. We first saw the contrast as work in FWWM with Fat Trout's as a dilapidated mirror image of TP with non-cooperative local police force, etc, while here we see Chantal and Hutch as a highly mobile version of Andy and Lucy, where the latter likely never left TP, and Chantal and Hutch seemingly have no permanent fixture. I saw (and then wrote in the parts discussion), that Andy and Lucy represented a more sedentary aspect (hence them looking to buy a chair) vs. chaotic and ever-moving other pole: stability vs. movement, order vs. chaos. Waves crashing the mountain in the Purple World, two poles and forces eternally going against each other. I wrote more on it, including Wally, in the parts threads.

TP parts were bleak, nothing special, and I was not disappointed there. Yes, I do not think we need to know of armpit rash of random characters. I now consider the musical acts to be Audrey's dream scenes, and I really, really liked how the Veils one was done. Au Revoir Simone were great too. The green glove is just hideous. I used to play Doom, and when you ran out of ammo you could find yourself fighting a cacodemon with your bare fists, that about sums it up.

But what mostly disappointed me back then, and I think I am still profoundly disappointed with (and maybe even more than back then, where these even then bugged me a lot), is what Lynch did with Gordon Cole and that whole "cossacks, smoking with Diane, fine bottle of Red Bordeau, French escort, not being soft where it mattered", and maybe some other monstrosities I luckily no longer remember. It is such a gigantic waste of opportunity to make best use of a chance that was given, and may never come around again, what a shame.
Last edited by boske on Tue May 04, 2021 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonah
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

boske wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:28 am first half of part 17 including that new scene that they discovered and put in, Ottis and Buella, Cooper
Still reading your post, but what scene was this?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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