Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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Agent Earle wrote:
ManBehindWinkies wrote:One of the key reasons why I trust David Lynch if he decides to do a Season 4 is because he doesn't give a crap what the fans think or if the fans want more. He's going to do it if there's a new experience in the Twin Peaks universe that he wants to create. Which seems about as different as it gets from what is happening with Disney and Star Wars.
Sorry, have to say this: Lynch also doesn't give a crap about other people's work and efforts, given how he blatantly trash-talked Season 2 prior to the premiere of Season 3. These other people being his colaborators that have done their best to save "his" series after he abandoned it. There was avalanche of good stuff coming out of that season, and not all of it was Lynch, too.
This sort of reinforces the point that he only cares about his own vision though. That stuff wasn’t true to his personal view of TP, and he prides himself on honoring the personal truth of the worlds of his films etc. That’s why that material was so painful to him.

None of which forgives/explains why he let himself drift away from the show in the first place, of course. I think in his view FWWM and TP:TR were his way of trying to make that right.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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AXX°N N. wrote:
ManBehindWinkies wrote:Did anyone read Brad Dukes article in Blue Rose Magazine?
I did. I understand it was him voicing his personal feelings, but the mag presented it as a 'critical' essay and I found it anything but. It had a lot of fallacies in thought. For instance, the new series is put under this hyper-scrutinizing and often pessimistic lens that the old series isn't flayed with. One example that clings to mind is when he refers to Lynch's son's musical cameo in a rather mean way, referring to it and other casting choices as mere nepotism, not recounting the fact that Lynch's other son was in the old show as a character with full-on speaking lines. There was little counterpoint to the whole thing, and it wasn't a very compelling read.
Sounds like I'd agree with your assessment. Did he elaborate any more on this sense of being "betrayed" that Franich and Jensen referred to? That's really one I have a hard time imagining even a devil's advocate argument that doesn't involve some kind of sense of undeserved sense entitlement from being a fan. The actual word being used is important. "Disappointment" would be a legitimate reaction, but betrayal suggests the fan is owed some kind of loyalty or fealty from a creator, which IMO can easily turn into a negative creative impulse should the creator heed it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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I can understand “betrayal” only if the creator in some ways desecrates what has come before. The example that pops immediately to mind is the ending of the novel Hannibal, which some fans (including Jodie Foster and Jonathan Demme) felt betrayed the character of Clarice Starling as she existed in The Silence of the Lambs. I get that (although I personally love the ending of that novel, and can’t really think of an example where I’ve ever felt “betrayed” by a creator or sequel or whatever).

Getting back to Rise of the Skywalker (which I’ve finally seen, and can confirm that it made no sense): I didn’t feel betrayed by all the ways it undoes Johnson’s work on Last Jedi, or by the insultingly lazy storytelling. Just annoyed and, as you said, disappointed.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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ManBehindWinkies wrote:
AXX°N N. wrote:
ManBehindWinkies wrote:Did anyone read Brad Dukes article in Blue Rose Magazine?
I did. I understand it was him voicing his personal feelings, but the mag presented it as a 'critical' essay and I found it anything but. It had a lot of fallacies in thought. For instance, the new series is put under this hyper-scrutinizing and often pessimistic lens that the old series isn't flayed with. One example that clings to mind is when he refers to Lynch's son's musical cameo in a rather mean way, referring to it and other casting choices as mere nepotism, not recounting the fact that Lynch's other son was in the old show as a character with full-on speaking lines. There was little counterpoint to the whole thing, and it wasn't a very compelling read.
Sounds like I'd agree with your assessment. Did he elaborate any more on this sense of being "betrayed" that Franich and Jensen referred to? That's really one I have a hard time imagining even a devil's advocate argument that doesn't involve some kind of sense of undeserved sense entitlement from being a fan. The actual word being used is important. "Disappointment" would be a legitimate reaction, but betrayal suggests the fan is owed some kind of loyalty or fealty from a creator, which IMO can easily turn into a negative creative impulse should the creator heed it.
The sense of betrayal was in response to how unlike the old series it was, and he took special offense to Cooper's undoing of Laura's murder. Everything else involving the old characters he seemed to mostly like, so it was mostly rooted in overt changes in style and canon. I found a lot of his thoughts on the new season's relationship to the old show sort of confused, though. He expresses throughout the essay how much he wanted it to be like the old show, while at the same time finding it disagreeable that others call the new season 'revolutionary' like the old show was--in his mind, he doesn't see anything about it as revolutionary, and is resentful we didn't (to paraphrase) truly, actually receive something as revolutionary as the old show was. But he doesn't ever indicate what would have been truly, actually revolutionary, and, again, the essay is mostly his regret that it doesn't function enough like the old show. I came away from the essay not really understanding what it was he wanted, or more like, having the sense that if he were to externally materialize his wishes, they wouldn't hold up to the scrutiny of what they really are, and would collapse into vapor.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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Screenwriter Chris Terrio (who REALLY had a big fall from grace, going from Argo to Batman v. Superman and Justice League and Rise of the Skywalker...ouch) discusses the rationale behind some of the controversial stuff here:

https://www.awardsdaily.com/2019/12/24/ ... lker-saga/

His explanation for the lack of Rose is that she had more material with Leia, which was cut because the photorealism wasn’t up to snuff. All due respect to the late Carrie Fisher, I’m certainly glad we didn’t get more Leia, because those scenes were so artificial and static, Leia just saying generic crap (“Be more optimistic”). Awful sendoff for the character. It was like Bela Lugosi in Plan 9, but less fun.

But that explanation only goes so far in explaining the lack of Rose. Where was she during the (horribly edited) final attack on Exegon? She suddenly pops up literally out of nowhere and is in a couple of shots, so she was there. But Dominic Monaghan got more screentime, and I couldn’t even tell you his character’s name without looking it up (looked it up: it’s Beaumont Kin :lol: ). At the end of the day, it’s not a huge deal when an actor’s screentime gets cut...it happens all the time to service the story. But this is one case where they really should have been conscious of the message they were sending, intended or not, to the trolls, to the actress (who must be enormously frustrated by this whole experience), and to...well, everyone.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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Honestly everything Terrio is trying to explain is almost comical, but totally agree that Abrams, Terrio and everyone else involved completely failed to recognize the importance of what was done with that character in lieu of the harassment. That's worse but up the same alley as the disingenuous self congratulatory PR for having a two second shot of Star Wars' first lesbians. Hell they could have just made Rose Tico a lesbian and probably end up slightly less disingenuous for the whole lot of it. The worst thing I can say about this movie is I felt the tension between JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson higher than the tension between Rey and Kylo.

Game of Thrones is another interesting case study in vitriolic fan backlash. The end was decidedly not geared to fan service (at least with regards to one character arc). I thought they rushed to the finish and failed to develop it to the degree it needed to really land home, but even with the failed execution I'm not sure it was the wrong ending as much as a poorly executed one. Still it was probably more interesting than a strictly fan service conclusion to that arc. (And that isn't to say the show didn't engage in bad fan service at the end in other areas).
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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GoT is an interesting and pretty unique example, as an adaptation of source material that doesn’t yet exist. I hope to one day find out how much came from GRRM. I had no problem with the ending in and of itself, just how we got there. It strikes me as the equivalent of a kid who got all the answers to his math homework from someone else, but can’t show the work to explain how he arrived there.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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AXX°N N. wrote:
ManBehindWinkies wrote:
AXX°N N. wrote: I did. I understand it was him voicing his personal feelings, but the mag presented it as a 'critical' essay and I found it anything but. It had a lot of fallacies in thought. For instance, the new series is put under this hyper-scrutinizing and often pessimistic lens that the old series isn't flayed with. One example that clings to mind is when he refers to Lynch's son's musical cameo in a rather mean way, referring to it and other casting choices as mere nepotism, not recounting the fact that Lynch's other son was in the old show as a character with full-on speaking lines. There was little counterpoint to the whole thing, and it wasn't a very compelling read.
Sounds like I'd agree with your assessment. Did he elaborate any more on this sense of being "betrayed" that Franich and Jensen referred to? That's really one I have a hard time imagining even a devil's advocate argument that doesn't involve some kind of sense of undeserved sense entitlement from being a fan. The actual word being used is important. "Disappointment" would be a legitimate reaction, but betrayal suggests the fan is owed some kind of loyalty or fealty from a creator, which IMO can easily turn into a negative creative impulse should the creator heed it.
The sense of betrayal was in response to how unlike the old series it was, and he took special offense to Cooper's undoing of Laura's murder. Everything else involving the old characters he seemed to mostly like, so it was mostly rooted in overt changes in style and canon. I found a lot of his thoughts on the new season's relationship to the old show sort of confused, though. He expresses throughout the essay how much he wanted it to be like the old show, while at the same time finding it disagreeable that others call the new season 'revolutionary' like the old show was--in his mind, he doesn't see anything about it as revolutionary, and is resentful we didn't (to paraphrase) truly, actually receive something as revolutionary as the old show was. But he doesn't ever indicate what would have been truly, actually revolutionary, and, again, the essay is mostly his regret that it doesn't function enough like the old show. I came away from the essay not really understanding what it was he wanted, or more like, having the sense that if he were to externally materialize his wishes, they wouldn't hold up to the scrutiny of what they really are, and would collapse into vapor.
What it boils down to is that there are two camps in both Twin Peaks and Star Wars:

1. Camp 1- stick to the formula that has worked 'time and time again'
2. Camp 2- Experiment, try something different, push the boundaries further.

Neither camp is right or wrong- it's a matter of what people are looking for in their entertainment.

(I'm in neither camp when it comes to Twin Peaks. I love Lynch pushing the boundaries, even at the cost of making me feel in unfamiliar territory. But I also would have been happy with a more straightforward, traditional narrative, as long as it had been done well. In terms of Star Wars, however, I have little tolerance for anything produced by Camp 1, simply because I don't consider Star Wars art that has ever been worthy of this many sequels in the first place. Thus the formula has to be shaken up a little to keep me interested
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Post by ManBehindWinkies »

mtwentz wrote:
AXX°N N. wrote:
What it boils down to is that there are two camps in both Twin Peaks and Star Wars:

1. Camp 1- stick to the formula that has worked 'time and time again'
2. Camp 2- Experiment, try something different, push the boundaries further.

Neither camp is right or wrong- it's a matter of what people are looking for in their entertainment.
Is there an example of a franchise using a formula that has worked "time and time again"? Maybe someone from "camp 1" can give an example ... I honestly can't think of any. Maybe a procedural crime drama like Law and Order or CSI? I don't watch those shows, but I guess every episode has a basic formula... crime committed, cops investigate crime, cops solve crime. I'd imagine that even in these examples they have to come up with new crimes, new ways to solve crimes, etc. to keep people interested. It might work for an episodic procedural show but it'd probably be harder to find examples of films or serialized television where repeating a formula works equally well the 100th time as it did the first.

If there had been a scene in the S3 of Cooper waxing poetic about the joys of Double R coffee and cherry pie, it probably would have elicited some joy and nostalgia from the audience. But if it was done a second time, or a third time, wouldn't that joy and nostalgia become increasingly diminished, even among those who wanted to see it? In the latest Star Wars movie there's a scene that imitates a scene from original trilogy, right down to John Williams repeating the music. The original scene was one of the very best scenes that's ever been in a Star Wars film, and this new version may be the worst scene that's ever been in a Star Wars film (that's saying something).

Sticking to what is known can work at times... The Mandalorian isn't bringing anything new to the Star Wars franchise, but it's far better and repackaging things than The Rise of Skywalker. Even then some of the better things about the show are the way it tweaks the Star Wars formula. It leans far more heavily into the harder tones of the Samurai films and Spaghetti Westerns that influenced the original films, and has a musical score that is different from what we normally expect from Star Wars music. But for the most part it is repacking tried and true things that fans love about Star Wars... Boba Fett, Yoda, desert locations. It's worked for one season, but I think even this show is eventually going to need to tread new ground if it's going to continue for a long time.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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I’d list James Bond as a series I like that tends to stick to a fairly repetitive formula, although the films I like best tend to be the ones that are a little more innovative (e.g., Casino Royale). Godzilla (the longest-running film franchise in existence) is another example, and probably tons of horror franchises. I’d say that in all those examples, there is plenty of stagnancy, and even the most hardcore fans probably wouldn’t argue that every film in those series is a great work of art, but they function as comfort food and are loved by many. There are even whole genres that function primarily on formula, like romantic comedies.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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Twin Peaks never had a formula, per se, but I think the basics of what a lot of fans wanted was another mystery in Twin Peaks, with Cooper teaming up with the Sheriff's station to solve the crime.

Note that Veronica Mars was actually able to pull this off successfully for its second season, before ditching the formula for its third and final season. So it definitely could have been done- a new murder, a new mystery...
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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mtwentz wrote:Note that Veronica Mars was actually able to pull this off successfully for its second season, before ditching the formula for its third and final season. So it definitely could have been done- a new murder, a new mystery...
And it worked again for Veronica Mars' fourth and hopefully not final season
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

Post by mtwentz »

eyeboogers wrote:
mtwentz wrote:Note that Veronica Mars was actually able to pull this off successfully for its second season, before ditching the formula for its third and final season. So it definitely could have been done- a new murder, a new mystery...
And it worked again for Veronica Mars' fourth and hopefully not final season
I have not seen it yet. Don’t have Hulu!
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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A new murder/new mystery format may have worked with Twin Peaks, but even then I think they'd have to change things up to a degree to keep the story fresh. If they'd taken the JJ Abrams Star Wars approach, it'd be another mystery about a murdered high school prom queen (maybe this time murdered by her -- grandfather!). Sticking to the formula to such a degree that it's an imitation of the old work is not out of the question here.

There are formulaic genre films that work, but for me it's usually because there's something fresh about it that pushes the formula into the background of the experience. For example if the characters in a romantic comedy are engaging and ideally unique. I suppose I'm firmly in "Camp 2" but I tend to be critical of blatantly repetitive tropes that don't have at least some kind of new or interesting spin, and I think those are fair criticisms.
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Re: Twin Peaks Season 3, Star Wars, JJ and Fan Service

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ManBehindWinkies wrote:A new murder/new mystery format may have worked with Twin Peaks
There was a new murder mystery, in the first episode of TPTR the decapitated head of a woman was found on top of the body of a much larger and older man. They kept that part of the formula (this time inspired by The Black Dahlia rather than the death if Marilyn) but remixed it plenty.
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