General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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mtwentz
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by mtwentz »

AXX°N N. wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:21 pm
Agent Earle wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:35 amBeautifully stated. It also says a lot about why it failed to connect with some of us. I don't want my Twin Peaks to be a vehicle for anything. I want it to be... well, Twin Peaks. Pure and simple.
This is another case of something I feel happens a lot, which is that a criticism is levied against S3 that can totally then be levied just as well to old TP, but isn't. And to me, every time this happens it shows how consistent TP can be, despite all the differences in style and angle of old vs. new.
My favorite along this line: Dougie is such stupid, inane humor.

Helllooooooo! That's been a part of Twin Peaks since the Pilot when Lucy and Andy and Nadine and others were introduced.

And yes, even Cooper in the original was the purveyor of a lot of 'stupid' humor. But mostly Andy and Lucy.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Agent Earle »

Well thanks for letting me know what Twin Peaks I thought I knew and loved for 30 years really is and how it operated. I guess now that I know that it really is no different than The Return, I'll stop being a fan of the whole shebang.
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NormoftheAndes
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by NormoftheAndes »

Sweet Jeez Louise! The Return was not a vehicle for anything. I've had people say its an ad for TM to me even. Frost was not trying to make some point about the economic crash in the US. If he was, it wasn't very clear or well done.

Can't we all accept that it was Lynch's long-awaited return to film-making? It didn't offer a narrative like in the original two seasons. The town of Twin Peaks felt tarnished, sad and full of repression. It was like the murder of Laura Palmer had disturbed the very fabric of life in the town, for the sake of the tv show we were watching.

The Return offered very little that was feel-good, no resurrection of old beloved characters to warm our hearts. The engaging, rich and vibrant images lensed in the first two seasons now looked far harsher, they didn't entice us into a fairytale we wanted to live inside. Sure, this was digital photography but it was filmed specifically to look like this.

All I can say is, Lynch won't just repeat the disturbing nature of The Return with whatever he does next.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by enumbs »

NormoftheAndes wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:49 pm Sweet Jeez Louise! The Return was not a vehicle for anything. I've had people say its an ad for TM to me even. Frost was not trying to make some point about the economic crash in the US. If he was, it wasn't very clear or well done.

Can't we all accept that it was Lynch's long-awaited return to film-making? It didn't offer a narrative like in the original two seasons. The town of Twin Peaks felt tarnished, sad and full of repression. It was like the murder of Laura Palmer had disturbed the very fabric of life in the town, for the sake of the tv show we were watching.

The Return offered very little that was feel-good, no resurrection of old beloved characters to warm our hearts. The engaging, rich and vibrant images lensed in the first two seasons now looked far harsher, they didn't entice us into a fairytale we wanted to live inside. Sure, this was digital photography but it was filmed specifically to look like this.

All I can say is, Lynch won't just repeat the disturbing nature of The Return with whatever he does next.
Frost was absolutely interested in depicting the results of the economic crash. He has even said as much in interviews: "“A lot of things that informed the discussion for the first year was the global meltdown of 2008-2009... the reason Vegas came to mind for me was all these images of vast tracked housing developments that had been built in the anticipation of this endless boom and were then abandoned. They were like ghost towns, but three-year-old ghost towns. I’d never seen that on screen up to that point and I thought, ‘There’s an image to work with.'”

Frost's political concerns are all over the season. Think about the trailer park resident selling his blood to eat, the mentions of suicidal and disabled veterans, and Janey-E's "We are the ninety-nine percent" speech, to name but a few examples. I am sure that Lynch had an interest in this aspect too - having appeared on Alex Jones's radio show, I can envision him particularly relishing the Dr Amp scenes.

I don't see how it is a problem for Twin Peaks to be a "vehicle" for all kinds of ideas. The whole point of art is to express the artist's perspective on life, so a version of season 3 that is "not a vehicle for anything" would be a pointless thing indeed. To quote Joel Bocko's video essay, "Twin Peaks is not meaningless, it is about something, and it does have a lot more in its pretty little head than the desire to please".

Of course season 3 was "Lynch's long-awaited return to film-making" - that's just a statement of fact, and I'm not quite sure what you're trying to assert or refute by mentioning it. If the implication is that season 3 is deficient in some way due to Lynch having to get back into the swing of things then I very much disagree, as I think the filmmaking is every bit as confident and purposeful as anything in his career.

I do broadly agree with your observations about the tone and atmosphere of the season however, although I'm not sure the extent to which a season 4 will be a departure from that. I suspect that you're correct to say that it will be a very different beast, but I am even more confident that it will be quite different from the original 2 seasons. The world of the show is just too far removed from those episodes at this point, and I believe attempting to recreate their feel would undermine the thematic through line of the revival. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the new season is actually darker than season 3, although perhaps featuring a redemptive ending in the vein of Fire Walk With Me and Inland Empire. Only time will tell...
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by AXX°N N. »

Agent Earle wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:30 am Well thanks for letting me know what Twin Peaks I thought I knew and loved for 30 years really is and how it operated. I guess now that I know that it really is no different than The Return, I'll stop being a fan of the whole shebang.
That's not a good faith representation of my post. I'm not trying to dictate your approval of either show, that's entirely subjective. What you said struck me as inaccurate, but it has nothing to do with whether you like or dislike old vs. new either way.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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In response to enumbs, of course those elements are there in The Return but I don't see them as being so prevalent as to say that the show is a 'vehicle' for them. In terms of screen time, they are more of a background and add to the overall mood I was describing in Twin Peaks too. 'Ghost town' is a great description.

The guy selling his blood is apparently the real manager of the trailer park - now, was that dialogue all originated from Frost or was it improvised on the day? It definitely creates a feeling of desperation - but then what to make of Doctor Jacoby? Why is he now living in the trailer in the woods? Is this merely a depiction of poverty or something more?

Even Frost himself is playing Cyril Pons living in the trailer park, a town journalist fallen on hard times. Yet he is faced with young people struggling with drugs, guns and their own lives. This is more than just an economic crash.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

enumbs wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:44 pm To quote Joel Bocko's video essay, "Twin Peaks is not meaningless, it is about something, and it does have a lot more in its pretty little head than the desire to please".
Joel! Man, I miss his contributions here.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by boske »

S3 is TP, but just partially, as it extrapolates Bob and Mr. C across the continental US. It is trying to portray a process that originated with the nuclear test, allowing malevolent entities to roam free and wreak havoc. It is not about something taking place just right now, and but something that has been going on since 1947, and what we see in the current time are just the poisoned fruits of those actions. Thus, we are looking at a historical process that has a mapped beginning and a trajectory (we will leave its ending(s) out if this).

"It is in our house now". What is in our house now? It could be quite a few things, but a top candidate could be electricity that is mostly (in the US, I suppose), generated by nuclear fission, which was categorically identified, at least in TP, as being destructive and evil. So, when you plug an electronic device into the electric grid, try to remember that the electricity that you are getting is primarily the result of nuclear fission, and then that of hydro-electric power and finally some coal plants. This makes the fact that Cooper uses electrical grid and current as a vehicle of his return very symbolic too. The same with Las Vegas. If it were not for electricity and cheap resources (gasoline), the place would probably have still remained a desert; a place where spirits roam and tempt people. And it is a electricity-driven mirage now.

Frost does look more at an economic angle, at least from what I could deduce. Lynch does it too, not to Frost's extent, but he supposedly wrote into the script the scene where Carl Rodd implores the elder resident not to see his blood for food. That is a very emotional scene, even more so than the seemingly "Frostian" scenes.

For me FWWM is TP, even though quite a few people diverged on that matter. Why? I find TP to be primarily about evil beneath a (sometimes very thin) surface. Such is the nature of evil. It needs to be wrapped by a thin layer of truth to become believable and digestible. Or just not in our face that much that we can pretend it is not there. I do sense a bit of divergence between Lynch and Frost though, and it does not have to do with Richard and Linda, where I tend to agree with Frost that I still cannot find its proper place (likewise for Laura orb), but more with where this overall trajectory is taking us, and the nature of forces pushing it. There are (as I see them) subtle differences between two viewpoints, and "it cannot be said aloud now".
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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NormoftheAndes wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:49 pm In response to enumbs, of course those elements are there in The Return but I don't see them as being so prevalent as to say that the show is a 'vehicle' for them. In terms of screen time, they are more of a background and add to the overall mood I was describing in Twin Peaks too. 'Ghost town' is a great description.

The guy selling his blood is apparently the real manager of the trailer park - now, was that dialogue all originated from Frost or was it improvised on the day? It definitely creates a feeling of desperation - but then what to make of Doctor Jacoby? Why is he now living in the trailer in the woods? Is this merely a depiction of poverty or something more?

Even Frost himself is playing Cyril Pons living in the trailer park, a town journalist fallen on hard times. Yet he is faced with young people struggling with drugs, guns and their own lives. This is more than just an economic crash.

Good observations. I think a lot of people see these elements as the result of Mr C’s presence and the growing influence of the Black Lodge, but I kind of see it the opposite way. The dark spiritual currents throughout the series are representative of the real forces of darkness as Lynch and Frost see them, which exist as political, moral and spiritual failings.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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I think something that gets lost in all the discussion on how S3 broadened the scope both thematically and geographically, is that Twin Peaks as a town with a specific meaning was also broadened. And considering it from this angle, I heavily disagree with the "Twin Peaks was superfluous" refrains. Even with the evil treated as a primordial, nationwide phenomenon, and even with Mr. C sowing his oats in coast to coast crime syndicates, everything circles back to Twin Peaks the place. It's where the cast is boiled down to the essential players in the group gathering that feels so much like collage, it's where reality breaks down completely, it's where everything is a strange platonic ideal but also maybe (the possibility is suggested) more akin to plato's cave. Of course the vibe of the original series has been drained away, the inhabitants are beleagured or ailing, the crime and economy has caught up to modern global times, and whatever about it that might have been unique is firmly a question of a retrospective (maybe rose-colored) image, something not currently present in the sense one might desire ... but to me that's all part of the contrast.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by eyeboogers »

Well put Axxon. It is also a great detail how those that are not able to let go of that rose tinted ideal of the past (both Agent Cooper and the Greatly Disappointed bunch here), cannot find their way to happiness and acceptance. First they must let go of what was, before they can appreciate the beauty in what is.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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AXX°N N. wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:53 pm I think something that gets lost in all the discussion on how S3 broadened the scope both thematically and geographically, is that Twin Peaks as a town with a specific meaning was also broadened. And considering it from this angle, I heavily disagree with the "Twin Peaks was superfluous" refrains. Even with the evil treated as a primordial, nationwide phenomenon, and even with Mr. C sowing his oats in coast to coast crime syndicates, everything circles back to Twin Peaks the place. It's where the cast is boiled down to the essential players in the group gathering that feels so much like collage, it's where reality breaks down completely, it's where everything is a strange platonic ideal but also maybe (the possibility is suggested) more akin to plato's cave. Of course the vibe of the original series has been drained away, the inhabitants are beleagured or ailing, the crime and economy has caught up to modern global times, and whatever about it that might have been unique is firmly a question of a retrospective (maybe rose-colored) image, something not currently present in the sense one might desire ... but to me that's all part of the contrast.
I just don't think the 'idyllic looking town with a dark underbelly, everyone has a secret' would have worked in 2017. That was so Blue Velvet/Twin Peaks, 1980s and 1990s.

So Lynch and Frost went the route of exploring the economic distress of rural America by showing us 'slices of life' of many of the residents and their children.

The one part of Twin Peaks that stayed consistent was the Sheriff's station.

But other than that, we are seeing the distress of a town that has lost its main economic engine, the mill.

BTW, am on my 4 year anniversary rewatch, and the Vegas storyline is even funnier than I remembered. I understand why some might not like it because it is so different than Twins Peaks 1990, but on its own merits, I think it is extremely funny and well done.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by AXX°N N. »

eyeboogers wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:29 am Well put Axxon. It is also a great detail how those that are not able to let go of that rose tinted ideal of the past (both Agent Cooper and the Greatly Disappointed bunch here), cannot find their way to happiness and acceptance. First they must let go of what was, before they can appreciate the beauty in what is.
I think Cooper's fixation is more broad than that, it's not only that he longs for what once was (or never was), it's that he longs for the resolution to things that can't be resolved, namely Laura's murder. It can be resolved only to the point of its facts being elaborated, and bringing everyone to the point of grief, the point where they have to bear it or make the effort to let go, but the grief and trauma can't be outright destroyed, and the persistence of those forces responsible can't be outright negated.

And although I might be misreading a cheekier intention to your last point there, I don't at all want to suggest the Profoundly Disappointed can't find happiness just because they don't jibe with S3, that's rather presumptuous.
mtwentz wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:37 am The one part of Twin Peaks that stayed consistent was the Sheriff's station.
But even it has expanded to keep up with the rate of distress.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by mtwentz »

So just finished my first re-watch since maybe late 2017, so almost 4 years. I kind of started to doubt my initial reaction that this was a great piece of art, because I had not felt compelled to do a rewatch during all of COVID quarantine, even though I had plenty of opportunity. Turns out I just needed more time to view with fresh eyes.

I have to say I enjoyed it even more 4 years later.

I still have a couple of issues. Still do not like Wally Brando, not a huge fan of Becky almost killing her mom then being forgiven like it was nothing, and the arm wrestling scene was also over the top for me, although I enjoyed that one a little more than I did in 2017.

But other than that, I was really transfixed and could not wait to jump to the next episode. The biggest surprise for me is that Robert Forster made me glad that Ontkean did not sign on. I never thought I'd say that but I saw how much more he brought to the table as Sheriff than Ontkean ever did. And I like Ontkean, but Forster is just several levels above.

So, some realizations I came to that may or may not be true:
-Red is not a lodge creature IMO. Richard is so freaking high on drugs that the magic that Red pulls is enhanced. I believe Red is an illusionist, but really Richard's time perception is thrown off by the drugs.

-Although I would like to have seen more of Red, it's possible that nothing he could have done later in TP:TR would have topped that scene with Richard. That scene harkens back to Bobby and Mike meeting Leo in the woods in Season 1, and that truly was the apex of Leo's character in TP. Perhaps Lynch/Frost didn't want to make the same mistake with Red and have him as a vegetable in a wheelchair by the end :-)

-I still have not figured out why Red references The King and I unless it's just this simple: he doesn't 'know' Richard, and this is a 'Getting to Know You' session

-The drug storyline did not become a big storyline because...been there, done that. I also think it was about subverting expectations. Every big confrontation we anticipate: Red vs Bobby, Cooper vs Mr C, Laura vs Sarah ends up not happening. Those were choices, and I thought they all worked very well.

-I'll say it here and now in front of God and everybody: the best cinematic scenes in the Twin Peaks universe all occur in The Return. Nothing in the original series can touch the Mauve Room or Episode 8 of S3. The only competition would come from FWWM, but I still think the aforementioned S3 scenes beat anything in FWWM.

-Dougie is even funnier 4 years later. When Anthony is giving his confession about working with Duncan Todd, and Bushnell reveals 'Dougie told me all about it', it was the super big payoff to the Dougie doodling scene. I laughed out loud.

-Little Girl Who Lives Down The Lane. Maybe this was already decided, but in this rewatch I saw this as a foreshadowing that Laura/Carrie had a dead body in her house, an abuser whom she killed. Which makes me wonder if The Return can be seen as Laura's dream or Laura's coping mechanism. Where she finally fights back and takes control, and each character, or maybe just Audrey, is really just Laura. Something to ponder.

-The beginning scene with the Giant, which might actually be the end, or even the middle, makes me think it is Laura's dream/fantasy. Does 'it all cannot be said aloud now' reference Sarah not wanting to hear about Laura's abuse at the hands of her father?

-I just love the storytelling method here. Dang, we have to wait until the last two of eighteen hours to find out what the plot is! And yet when we do find out Judy is the endgame, everything we saw before makes sense.

What a great ride. I hope some of those who did not like it on first viewing will give it another chance someday.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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I came across a fascinating extract from Lynch on Lynch concerning Eraserhead recently:

“Henry is very sure that something is happening, but he doesn’t understand it at all. He watches things very, very carefully because he’s trying to figure them out. He might study the corner of that pie container just because it’s in his line of sight, and he might wonder why he sat where he did to have that be there like that. Everything is new. It might not be frightening to him, but it could be a key to something. Everything should be looked at. There could be clues in it.”

This quote was a real revelation to me, particularly with regards to season 3. Most obviously it relates to the “Is it about the bunny?” and “Make sense of it” scenes, but it also speaks to the whole approach of the season. There is a conscious refusal to delineate between moments of narrative significance and more conventionally peripheral material, leading to the feeling that every moment might be crucial in some way. The deliberate pace, stark digital cinematography and indifferent cuts between characters and locations all lead to the feeling that the mystery is entirely ours to solve, that almost nothing will be clearly underlined. We have almost 18 hours of material to consider, but where within that is the “key” contained? Is it in the foreground, with our Cooper, or lurking in the background somewhere, with Billy, Chuck and Tina? Maybe it lies just behind the frame, on the outskirts of a dream.

Look at the donut and not at the hole. But which is which?
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