General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

User avatar
TwinsPeak
RR Diner Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:13 pm

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by TwinsPeak »

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
TwinsPeak wrote: I like Lynch's weather updates but I would prefer some new Peaks.
Speaking of unresolved mysteries, what is up with those tinted glasses!




LOL... he's got to wear those glasses from smoke and golden sunshine glare, its fun being able to see into Lynch's home Workshop/Hotbox room. And his thoughts ofcourse. I'm lovin his youtube channel.
"Wanting something to be different will not make it so." "Explaining a different rule is not complaining for months. A lie will never be true." - Dale Cooper: My Life, My Tapes.
User avatar
TwinsPeak
RR Diner Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:13 pm

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by TwinsPeak »

TwinsPeak wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
TwinsPeak wrote: I like Lynch's weather updates but I would prefer some new Peaks.
Speaking of unresolved mysteries, what is up with those tinted glasses!




LOL... he's got to wear those glasses from smoke and golden sunshine glare, its fun being able to see into Lynch's home Workshop/Hotbox room. And his thoughts ofcourse. I'm lovin his youtube channel.

Especially the Checking Stick episode.
"Wanting something to be different will not make it so." "Explaining a different rule is not complaining for months. A lie will never be true." - Dale Cooper: My Life, My Tapes.
User avatar
Metalane
New Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:17 am

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Metalane »

Hello everybody! I've been lurking on here for the past month or so and I finally decided to join. I'm just a massive David Lynch/TP fan. I don't know if an introduction like this is normal (I don't use forums like these very often).
User avatar
Metalane
New Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:17 am

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Metalane »

AXX°N N. wrote:I always took that in that way, yeah. The maddeningly long scenes of him doing what we perceive at the time as nonsensical doodling then turning out to contain deeper meaning feels like some kind of near-satire of himself, even.
Interesting perspective, haven't thought of that before. I absolutely love the doodling scene because it (to me at least) seems to express and invoke a sense of "child-like wonder", if you know what I mean. Children (and adults) love doodling, and it invites the creative part of the mind to come out and play. It's also very meditative, which you could say about the show in general.

I just love The Return, I could talk about it for hours on end any day haha.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3680
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Metalane wrote:Hello everybody! I've been lurking on here for the past month or so and I finally decided to join. I'm just a massive David Lynch/TP fan. I don't know if an introduction like this is normal (I don't use forums like these very often).
Welcome! We don’t get many new members these days. Feel free to go to town posting. Always good to see a fresh “face.”
430_chalfonts
New Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 11:12 am

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by 430_chalfonts »

I'm new here, too. :) I'll definitely be jumping into some threads soon.
User avatar
kitty666cats
RR Diner Member
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:38 pm

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by kitty666cats »

stro wrote:I rewatched recently, on a full series rewatch (including TSH and TFD), first time since The Return aired. My initial viewing of The Return was a lot of disappointment and confusion, and my second viewing with the whole series much fresher in my mind as I didn't do a rewatch of seasons 1/2/FWWM before The Return, I'm still not satisfied and still confused. My initial viewing, the big take away was the lack of music making everything feel so weird and off, but now I think it's actually the cinematography and lighting that is a bigger issue to missing the feel of the original run and FWWM. The all digital, all bright, even lighting makes it look cheap and sterile. The few flashbacks to FWWM or the original series highlight how much warmer and lived in the world of Twin Peaks seemed. It all feels like a set in The Return. Of course the dodgy green screening, intentional or not (and I have a hard time believing how bad the phones/tv screens chroma keying was was intentional, or how bad either chroma keying or projection in nearly all the driving scenes wasn't a time/budget issue) draws attention to this, and due to the equipment and lighting, there are many scenes that LOOK like cheap green screen but actually were real.

But ultimately I think it's lacking the humanity that made people fall in love with TP, and that's because most of that came from Frost, who seems to be overshadowed and overruled on all things TP when it comes to the Frost/Lynch partnership. All the quirky warmness is replaced with misery and grossness or weirdness that goes unexplained. The quote from Frost about something like "we can't just keep throwing weird mysteries and not solve them" implies to me that Lynch doesn't care about the mysteries or where they lead or how/if they can be solved, but how they make the viewer feel. I think this can be seeing going back to FWWM where Lynch pretty significantly changes the characterization of various characters and events that don't really line up with the show, because it made for a better feel in that particular story he was telling even if it didn't add up perfectly. So then we get The Return and it's a bunch of mystery boxes that I don't think there's an intention to be solved from Lynch, but Frost feels there has to be something concrete and so writes the books that Lynch isn't involved with and won't read or comment on.

I guess what I'm trying to say is The Return FEELS like it's really missing Frost's voice and characterization that defines the original run (to me) and instead it doubles down on Lynchian coldness and disorienting dreamy mysteries that you can't solve because there is no answer to them to begin with. And just a general misanthropic vibe. It's like the entire vibe was flipped upside down, where what used to be a show about a quirky small town with darkness under the surface is now a dark miserable cesspool with a handful of bright spots if you dig deep enough. Which is just...never going to be satisfying for me.

I've said it before and I will say it again, the most top-tier Twin Peaks content comes from as much involvement as possible from Mark Frost, Harley Peyton, and Robert Engels (with Lynch still involved, as well). Of course Peyton will, for some, only come to mind when they muse on some of the worst aspects of season 2... but he also had a major hand in some of the greatest aspects of S1 and early S2! Lynch + writing = not always the best equation... he is INTEGRAL for awe-inspiring visuals and audio evoking strong emotions/moods, but I feel he works best as a cog in a machine & not being the machine itself
User avatar
mtwentz
Lodge Member
Posts: 2185
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by mtwentz »

Even if we assume the best writing in TP involved Frost, Engels and Peyton- this writing took place 25 years before The Return. In a hypothetical scenario where Peyton snd Engels are brought on board to shore up some of the writing for The Return, it is unclear how this affects the end product.

Maybe a few more clever zingers? But the pacing and the structure of the story would not have changed.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by LateReg »

mtwentz wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:02 am Even if we assume the best writing in TP involved Frost, Engels and Peyton- this writing took place 25 years before The Return. In a hypothetical scenario where Peyton snd Engels are brought on board to shore up some of the writing for The Return, it is unclear how this affects the end product.

Maybe a few more clever zingers? But the pacing and the structure of the story would not have changed.
Huh. This is a very, very interesting point. Well done.
User avatar
eyeboogers
Great Northern Member
Posts: 729
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by eyeboogers »

mtwentz wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:02 am Even if we assume the best writing in TP involved Frost, Engels and Peyton- this writing took place 25 years before The Return. In a hypothetical scenario where Peyton snd Engels are brought on board to shore up some of the writing for The Return, it is unclear how this affects the end product.

Maybe a few more clever zingers? But the pacing and the structure of the story would not have changed.
I agree with you that the show would basically have been the same. That being said The Return did attempt to strike a very delicate balance, and as much as I adore this work, it I do think that bringing in the original writing-showrunners for a polish, could have perfected that balance.The main difference is that the universally beloved aspects of the Agent Cooper character come from Peyton. So it is possible that he could have brought a bit more Dale to both the Dougie storyline, and perhaps even add a few more interesting flourishes to Mr.C.

Engels on the other hand might have amplified some of the more narratively extreme aspects of The Return, f.ex. I think we would have spent more screen time in Buenas Aires, And let's be eternally thankful that Engels' driving a truck backwards in order to close the gap between two worlds scene didn't make it into the series.
User avatar
mtwentz
Lodge Member
Posts: 2185
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by mtwentz »

eyeboogers wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:29 pm
mtwentz wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:02 am Even if we assume the best writing in TP involved Frost, Engels and Peyton- this writing took place 25 years before The Return. In a hypothetical scenario where Peyton snd Engels are brought on board to shore up some of the writing for The Return, it is unclear how this affects the end product.

Maybe a few more clever zingers? But the pacing and the structure of the story would not have changed.
I agree with you that the show would basically have been the same. That being said The Return did attempt to strike a very delicate balance, and as much as I adore this work, it I do think that bringing in the original writing-showrunners for a polish, could have perfected that balance.The main difference is that the universally beloved aspects of the Agent Cooper character come from Peyton. So it is possible that he could have brought a bit more Dale to both the Dougie storyline, and perhaps even add a few more interesting flourishes to Mr.C.

Engels on the other hand might have amplified some of the more narratively extreme aspects of The Return, f.ex. I think we would have spent more screen time in Buenas Aires, And let's be eternally thankful that Engels' driving a truck backwards in order to close the gap between two worlds scene didn't make it into the series.
I don't think Lynch and Frost were really interested in stylistically being similar to the original series. The Return was a combo of balls ass Lynch bleak surrealism and Frost's social commentary on the state of America, using little 'slice of life' scenes to emphasize the economic and social problems. Since Vegas was particularly hard hit by the crash of '08, I assume that is why Vegas was chosen as a location for The Return.

I am just not convinced any other writer would have changed that formula.

You might have gotten clunky lines like 'you're all wet' out of the script, but that wouldn't have changed people's basic dissatisfaction with The Return.

And what was their basic dissatisfaction: they wanted it to be more like the original series. And that was never going to happen. Lynch and Frost had both evolved, and neither were interested in redoing something they had already done.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
User avatar
mtwentz
Lodge Member
Posts: 2185
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by mtwentz »

eyeboogers wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:29 pm
mtwentz wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:02 am Even if we assume the best writing in TP involved Frost, Engels and Peyton- this writing took place 25 years before The Return. In a hypothetical scenario where Peyton snd Engels are brought on board to shore up some of the writing for The Return, it is unclear how this affects the end product.

Maybe a few more clever zingers? But the pacing and the structure of the story would not have changed.
I agree with you that the show would basically have been the same. That being said The Return did attempt to strike a very delicate balance, and as much as I adore this work, it I do think that bringing in the original writing-showrunners for a polish, could have perfected that balance.The main difference is that the universally beloved aspects of the Agent Cooper character come from Peyton. So it is possible that he could have brought a bit more Dale to both the Dougie storyline, and perhaps even add a few more interesting flourishes to Mr.C.

Engels on the other hand might have amplified some of the more narratively extreme aspects of The Return, f.ex. I think we would have spent more screen time in Buenas Aires, And let's be eternally thankful that Engels' driving a truck backwards in order to close the gap between two worlds scene didn't make it into the series.
I don't think Lynch and Frost were really interested in stylistically being similar to the original series. The Return was a combo of balls-ass Lynch bleak surrealism/mind fuck and Frost's social commentary on the state of America, using little 'slice of life' scenes to emphasize the economic and social problems. (Since Vegas was particularly hard hit by the crash of '08, I assume that is why Vegas was chosen as a location for The Return.}

I am just not convinced any other writer would have changed that formula. You might have gotten clunky lines like 'you're all wet' out of the script, but that wouldn't have changed the Profoundly Disappointed crowd's basic dissatisfaction with The Return.

And what was their basic dissatisfaction: they wanted it to be more like the original series: a soap opera format. And that was never going to happen. Lynch and Frost had both evolved, and neither were interested in redoing something they had already done.

Lynch wanted to follow his muse and do more Eraserhead/Inland Empire. Frost had many things to say about politics and economic plight of average Americans. Twin Peaks was their vehicle to make that happen.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
Agent Earle
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 am

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Agent Earle »

mtwentz wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:33 am
Lynch wanted to follow his muse and do more Eraserhead/Inland Empire. Frost had many things to say about politics and economic plight of average Americans. Twin Peaks was their vehicle to make that happen.
Beautifully stated. It also says a lot about why it failed to connect with some of us. I don't want my Twin Peaks to be a vehicle for anything. I want it to be... well, Twin Peaks. Pure and simple.
LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by LateReg »

Agent Earle wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:35 am
mtwentz wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:33 am
Lynch wanted to follow his muse and do more Eraserhead/Inland Empire. Frost had many things to say about politics and economic plight of average Americans. Twin Peaks was their vehicle to make that happen.
Beautifully stated. It also says a lot about why it failed to connect with some of us. I don't want my Twin Peaks to be a vehicle for anything. I want it to be... well, Twin Peaks. Pure and simple.
Well put MT, and perfectly fair assessment, Earle. I totally get your point, Earle. But to look at it another way, and not only to play devil's advocate, there is the notion that Twin Peaks has always been a vehicle for whatever Lynch/Frost wanted to explore--and that we really have no idea what Twin Peaks is to them. In the days prior to the premiere of The Return, Matt Zoller Seitz had published an article titled "Why Twin Peaks is Not the Series We've Convinced Ourselves It Was" that pointed out that we should expect this to be different because Twin Peaks has always been a sandbox for Lynch/Frost to play in. This may come across as convoluted, but to me, the new series doesn't really feel like the original Twin Peaks (although the more I watch it, the more it does at times) but also offers a totally logical yet unexpected 25-years later continuation. I don't expect everyone to see it that way and I'm totally good with people saying that it feels nothing like the Twin Peaks they know and love (I consider that a compliment!), but overall it very much seems like Twin Peaks to me--just not exactly like the old Twin Peaks. I guess I mean that it does not seem like simply a vehicle to smuggle in some new ideas, which implies that The Return was a bait and switch, but rather that it feels like a work fully devoted to and involved with exploring Twin Peaks 25 years later.
User avatar
AXX°N N.
Great Northern Member
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by AXX°N N. »

Agent Earle wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:35 amBeautifully stated. It also says a lot about why it failed to connect with some of us. I don't want my Twin Peaks to be a vehicle for anything. I want it to be... well, Twin Peaks. Pure and simple.
This is another case of something I feel happens a lot, which is that a criticism is levied against S3 that can totally then be levied just as well to old TP, but isn't. And to me, every time this happens it shows how consistent TP can be, despite all the differences in style and angle of old vs. new.

Old TP absolutely was a vehicle in many instances. The Tibet stuff was because Lynch recently took an interest (and I think actually met the Dalai Lama) and I recall in interviews the use of the phrase "spread awareness," the civil war plotline was because that PBS documentary was airing (and everyone was suddenly doing civil war references, Simpsons & Seinfeld for example), Frost added more & more occult references as time went on, everyone was loading it up with pop culture references, emulating noir, James Bond, slapstick, etc. etc. Even the central pastiche wasn't ex nihilo, a lot of the character of the small town setting was them riffing on Peyton Place and using it as counter-inspiration, and along with it Lynch's brand of "darkness beneath the surface," but also some social commentary I don't doubt comes from Frost. Even the typical statement of S3 being "a vehicle for old unfinished projects" can be levied against old TP because so much of the Monroe project (where Lynch & Frost met) feels like it got folded into the Laura plotline.

TP was always a patchwork of nostalgic and obscure interests and counter-statements.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
Post Reply