General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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AXX°N N.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by AXX°N N. »

enumbs wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:51 am I came across a fascinating extract from Lynch on Lynch concerning Eraserhead recently...
Very interesting in light of S3, thanks for sharing! I think the philosophical implications of the Dougie stuff is really underdiscussed overall--the most active thread on the topic (the one about if people missed the satirical nature) for instance--of course there's a satirical edge but there's also something to it that seems genuinely instructive re: conceptions of what is or isn't "important." I have a friend for instance where our major schism is twofold: he thinks I smell the roses too much, I think he lacks curiosity. I've told him before (not at all with comedic intent, though it is more or less a joke) that if everyone had the same level of curiosity as he did, nobody would have ever invented cheese. It's an absurd sentence, an almost stupid sentence, but I earnestly believe it contains a truthism. The rest of your post applies it to S3 exceptionally.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Dougie Cooper
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Dougie Cooper »

Excerpt from an article in Scientific American September 2021:

""We were flying about 48 kilometers north of ODESSA, a city in the heart of the Permian Basin, a Kansas-size expanse that straddles West Texas and southeastern New Mexico. Hundreds of millions of years ago this region was covered by a wide, shallow sea populated by tiny organisms that built vast reefs. The decomposing remains of those creatures collected in oil-forming deposits now as deep as 3,000 meters or more. Today the Permian is home to one of the WORLD;S BIGGEST OIL FIELDS -- THE LARGEST AND FASTEST-GROWING IN THE U.S., the source of 38 percent of the country's oil and 17 percent of its natural gas. . . . " (emphasis mine)

Odessa. Texas.

Oil. Lots of it.

Got a light?
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Jasper
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Jasper »

Dougie Cooper wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:39 pm Excerpt from an article in Scientific American September 2021:

""We were flying about 48 kilometers north of ODESSA, a city in the heart of the Permian Basin, a Kansas-size expanse that straddles West Texas and southeastern New Mexico. Hundreds of millions of years ago this region was covered by a wide, shallow sea populated by tiny organisms that built vast reefs. The decomposing remains of those creatures collected in oil-forming deposits now as deep as 3,000 meters or more. Today the Permian is home to one of the WORLD;S BIGGEST OIL FIELDS -- THE LARGEST AND FASTEST-GROWING IN THE U.S., the source of 38 percent of the country's oil and 17 percent of its natural gas. . . . " (emphasis mine)

Odessa. Texas.

Oil. Lots of it.

Got a light?
Very interesting. I like things like this whether or not they have any bearing on the choices made by the creators.

I'll add to it by mentioning that Cooper also quite bizarrely places several guns into a sort of oil pool at Judy's diner.
guns_freyer.ijpg.jpg
guns_freyer.ijpg.jpg (220.49 KiB) Viewed 5534 times
I borrowed the above image from this blog. The author actually goes and visits the diner, called Rudy's irl, and takes a lot of interesting comparison photos of the interior. The old man sitting in back with his wife in part 18 is actually a Rudy's regular of 20 years, so it's another case of Lynch taking a non-actor right out of the actual local environment.
https://twinpeaksblog.com/2019/07/06/tw ... -interior/
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Histeria
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Histeria »

Are the credits for the show slightly more dietetic than they may appear?

"The" Nine Inch Nails
American Girl
???????
The Fireman
Laura Palmer
Carrie Paige

Was the redacted name for The Fireman a wish to avoid "spoilers" (what would be spoiled, exactly?) or is it the reflection of someone's subjective experience of the world?

Is there a ?????? because someone/the film itself/the viewer (in-text)/something simply doesn't yet know or remember and therefore it cannot he known?

Someone asked in another thread once if "Cooper recognised Ronnete" in Part 3. The credits list her role as "American Girl," one of presumably many faceless American girls that exist as a broad concepts instead of real tangible individuals a la Laura Palmer (much to the annoyance of Albert in FWWM. This would be especially true for an FBI agent whose daily grind features cases like this.

That whole sequence is memorable for deconstructing Cooper's identity (as we know it) into a handful of crude mnemonic objects of memory:
  • A blue roses on the table.
  • American Girl, a subject of a former case.
  • A Diane as unseeing as as a tape recorder yet still performing the function of externallising Cooper's interior monologue and being his intellectual compass.
  • Even the number to his room at the Great Northern was torn asunder into its constituent primes. 3 and 15. The "key" to retuening home split just like his identities, ensuring whichever one he takes will not lead to back to his "whole" (or what we perceived to be his whole)
Is that what he's watching with a look of despair in P17? Do the credits that roll after each part reflect his own knowledge or perception of events?

The credits don't even feature the name Dale Cooper. They begin with Kyle MacLachlan's star billing (sans character) and then go on to list every other actor and their role. And if they did feature him, what would be listed as the role Kyle is playing? Would it be different in each Part?
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Pinky
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by Pinky »

Histeria wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:37 am Are the credits for the show slightly more dietetic than they may appear?

"The" Nine Inch Nails
American Girl
???????
The Fireman
Laura Palmer
Carrie Paige

Was the redacted name for The Fireman a wish to avoid "spoilers" (what would be spoiled, exactly?) or is it the reflection of someone's subjective experience of the world?

Is there a ?????? because someone/the film itself/the viewer (in-text)/something simply doesn't yet know or remember and therefore it cannot he known?

Someone asked in another thread once if "Cooper recognised Ronnete" in Part 3. The credits list her role as "American Girl," one of presumably many faceless American girls that exist as a broad concepts instead of real tangible individuals a la Laura Palmer (much to the annoyance of Albert in FWWM. This would be especially true for an FBI agent whose daily grind features cases like this.

That whole sequence is memorable for deconstructing Cooper's identity (as we know it) into a handful of crude mnemonic objects of memory:
  • A blue roses on the table.
  • American Girl, a subject of a former case.
  • A Diane as unseeing as as a tape recorder yet still performing the function of externallising Cooper's interior monologue and being his intellectual compass.
  • Even the number to his room at the Great Northern was torn asunder into its constituent primes. 3 and 15. The "key" to retuening home split just like his identities, ensuring whichever one he takes will not lead to back to his "whole" (or what we perceived to be his whole)
Is that what he's watching with a look of despair in P17? Do the credits that roll after each part reflect his own knowledge or perception of events?

The credits don't even feature the name Dale Cooper. They begin with Kyle MacLachlan's star billing (sans character) and then go on to list every other actor and their role. And if they did feature him, what would be listed as the role Kyle is playing? Would it be different in each Part?

great post. One thing about the blue rose that backs this: it exists initially as the name they chose for their secret FBI group in the story told by Albert, based on the concept of something that doesn't exist in nature and only symbolized once (I think) in the show, by Lil in FWWM. Any appearance of a physical blue rose in the Lodge space suggests that it's popping out of Cooper's subconscious and that he's the one dreaming this. Not likely that an otherwordly realm would present as decor the very thing that the FBI team tasked with discovering that realm have named themselves after.

Although, maybe the Lodge just has blue roses and the tulpa in Cole and Jeffries' first case has them spring into mind as shes's dying, and that's why we shouldn't be surprised by its appearance on a table in the Mauve Zone..
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AXX°N N.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by AXX°N N. »

Pinky wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:24 pm One thing about the blue rose that backs this: it exists initially as the name they chose for their secret FBI group in the story told by Albert, based on the concept of something that doesn't exist in nature and only symbolized once (I think) in the show, by Lil in FWWM. Any appearance of a physical blue rose in the Lodge space suggests that it's popping out of Cooper's subconscious and that he's the one dreaming this. Not likely that an otherwordly realm would present as decor the very thing that the FBI team tasked with discovering that realm have named themselves after.

Although, maybe the Lodge just has blue roses and the tulpa in Cole and Jeffries' first case has them spring into mind as shes's dying, and that's why we shouldn't be surprised by its appearance on a table in the Mauve Zone..
That's a wonderful bit of paradox I haven't thought of before. :) I'm a big fan of the idea that the ontological nature of the Lodge consists of this mechanic: once having stepped into the Lodge, Cooper has always stepped into the Lodge. It's an ontological paradox with a twist, where it's not a timeline being destabilized, but the interplay between two realities, one which is impervious to destabilization. It's a consequence before it happens of it having happened, or a consequence about to happen because it will happen, or any other phrasing formulation you can imagine. Applying this to the Blue Rose, it's both always having been born from Cooper and preceding him. And as for Cooper himself, the causal loop is much less forgiving than unforeseen divergences in worldly events and rather, unfortunately, more like cosmic damnation.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by JackwithOneEye »

the lodge seems to be a synthesis of nature and things manufactured by modern man. the entrance is a row of natural trees huddled around a pool of manufactured engine oil.

nothing about the interior red room imagery exists purely in nature aside from the evolution of the arm sycamore tree (which I suppose that the more one evolves - the more you become part of the natural world ? certainly when you die and buried in the ground that produces trees). ,the lamp, red curtains, chevron floor, are manufactured by modern man. venus de milo sculpture a bit less modern, but it's a piece of art celebrated by modern humans.

language of course is a man-made construct. the word sycamore itself is a man made label for something that grows whether we name it or not.

the time loop concepts are interesting. I like the example often used that if the billiard ball were to move fast enough it could theoretically hit it's past self.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by kitty666cats »

...been a very good page of this thread, right here. I especially like what Pinky brought up.

On the subject of 'Blue Rose' once again - if we are to assume that Cooper, Gordon & Briggs actually *did* meet and discuss a plan involving Judy, have people here/elsewhere kind of 'come to an agreement' on when that could even remotely sensibly have taken place? I suppose the most fitting would be when Cooper is re-instated after the whole Dead Dog Farm debacle (though still troublesome picking a more precise timeframe)... bleh. It takes me a LOT of grains of salt to accept that plot point/to retroactively imagine that so many MAJOR (pun not intended) details are now to be imagined taking place off-screen. Though, that also brings us back to "Well, time loops! Alternate timelines! Have a box full of paradox!" and gets the headache started allll over again.

Man, if only the show never got cancelled after Season 2 (though then lord-knows-how-much of FWWM would ever have been conceived...). I'm not too keen on Ontkean (heh) driving backwards through fields of corn & other rough ideas we've heard of time 'n time again, but the inevitable plot point where they would have had Major Briggs spearheading some sort of plan to 'rescue' Cooper from the lodge/foil the Doppelganger would have been nice to see. Obviously we still got that, in a roundabout way. But yes, like I said... who knows if there ever would have been things like our beloved iconic green ring if that were to happen. Sorry! Rambling a bit and kinda meandering all over the place - I am falling back into one of those phases where I think about Peaks a whole damn lot (re-visiting TSHOTP audio book at work recently reopened this beautiful can of worms)
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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It's a hard pill to swallow, but another horse-pill comes right after in the form of the previously unrevealed intimacy between Diane and Cooper. At a certain point, although it's pretty plainly contrivance born out of the endless mitigating circumstances of cancellation and actor death or non-participation, it begins to feel like the audience has been kept out of utmost top-shelf secrets this entire time by who else but the FBI characters. :) In that way it's strangely fitting. It's also at this point that the plot is so wildly destabilized that we plunge into different layers of reality, and when you include the Frost books, complete unreliable narrator territory.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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AXX°N N. wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:39 am It's a hard pill to swallow, but another horse-pill comes right after in the form of the previously unrevealed intimacy between Diane and Cooper. At a certain point, although it's pretty plainly contrivance born out of the endless mitigating circumstances of cancellation and actor death or non-participation, it begins to feel like the audience has been kept out of utmost top-shelf secrets this entire time by who else but the FBI characters. :) In that way it's strangely fitting. It's also at this point that the plot is so wildly destabilized that we plunge into different layers of reality, and when you include the Frost books, complete unreliable narrator territory.
Ha. And not only is much of the info withheld by the FBI, but revealed by the only man who would know the whole story, double-director David Lynch himself. The endless games this series plays are equal sources of fun and frustration.

Re: Diane, at least in that case many viewers had always pondered whether a romance existed between she and Coop.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by enumbs »

LateReg wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:38 pm Ha. And not only is much of the info withheld by the FBI, but revealed by the only man who would know the whole story, double-director David Lynch himself. The endless games this series plays are equal sources of fun and frustration.
Not to mention the fact that this monologue of exposition is being delivered by a director famous for withholding answers!
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by enumbs »

AXX°N N. wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:39 am It's a hard pill to swallow, but another horse-pill comes right after in the form of the previously unrevealed intimacy between Diane and Cooper. At a certain point, although it's pretty plainly contrivance born out of the endless mitigating circumstances of cancellation and actor death or non-participation, it begins to feel like the audience has been kept out of utmost top-shelf secrets this entire time by who else but the FBI characters. :) In that way it's strangely fitting. It's also at this point that the plot is so wildly destabilized that we plunge into different layers of reality, and when you include the Frost books, complete unreliable narrator territory.
Mr Reindeer actually discovered an excellent way of fitting the Blue Rose revelation into the original series timeline in the latest post on the episode 28 thread:
Mr. Reindeer wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 7:56 pm Most significantly, Briggs mentions “Judy Garland”! Does he finally remember being told about Judy during his time in the White Lodge? (BTW, the “Judy” portion of this line isn’t in the script. Was this Don Davis or Tim Hunter’s innovation?) Also intriguing: when asked if Earle did this, Garland responds: “It was God, I suppose.” Did Garland see the face of God, as Mike did before he cut off his arm? And who is the King of Romania in all of this?

Coop, after initially questioning Briggs: “Harry, this is gonna take some time.” Indicating that they plan to question Garland further. We then have a break until the next conference room scene, and my new pet theory is that Garland babbles more information about Judy in between the two scenes, and THIS is when Dale calls Gordon and they hatch their “two birds, one stone” plot! It actually fits way more cleanly than I ever expected it would. I’m almost as giddy as Kyle is in that awful latter conference room scene. “By heavens!”
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by LateReg »

enumbs wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:20 pm
LateReg wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:38 pm Ha. And not only is much of the info withheld by the FBI, but revealed by the only man who would know the whole story, double-director David Lynch himself. The endless games this series plays are equal sources of fun and frustration.
Not to mention the fact that this monologue of exposition is being delivered by a director famous for withholding answers!
Ha, yep. Which only adds to the total confusion and "something ain't right" feeling of it all. The whole game of telling us nothing for several episodes and then dumping exposition on us is a really interesting, destabilizing strategy.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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I rarely ever see anyone mention this - and I suppose that is valid since most people would consider the co-creators of the show as the most essential - but I think Harley Peyton and Robert Engels also being included with writing TPTR / Lynch being almost completely left to directing, mood, visuals, 'big picture' stuff etc would have made it *exponentially* better than how it turned out. To say the very least.

I wonder if their potential inclusion was ever strongly considered? I'd assume it was at least considered SOMEWHAT in private discussions between Frost and Lynch; wouldn't be very shocked if the latter shot the idea down. I really shouldn't keep beating myself up thinking about "could-have-been"s, haha. I don't hate TPTR, but I do teeter towards strong dislike for the most part... I kinda choose to just keep it out of my own personal TP 'headcanon' (yet I also adore TSHOTP and kinda keep that book in my twisted-up headcanon, too! Haha)
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AXX°N N.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Post by AXX°N N. »

enumbs wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:30 pmMr Reindeer actually discovered an excellent way of fitting the Blue Rose revelation into the original series timeline in the latest post on the episode 28 thread.
I remember that! It's a fun bit of head-canon not dissimilar to what Frost does in his books. :)
kitty666cats wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:36 pm I rarely ever see anyone mention this - and I suppose that is valid since most people would consider the co-creators of the show as the most essential - but I think Harley Peyton and Robert Engels also being included with writing TPTR / Lynch being almost completely left to directing, mood, visuals, 'big picture' stuff etc would have made it *exponentially* better than how it turned out. To say the very least.

I wonder if their potential inclusion was ever strongly considered? I'd assume it was at least considered SOMEWHAT in private discussions between Frost and Lynch; wouldn't be very shocked if the latter shot the idea down. I really shouldn't keep beating myself up thinking about "could-have-been"s, haha. I don't hate TPTR, but I do teeter towards strong dislike for the most part... I kinda choose to just keep it out of my own personal TP 'headcanon' (yet I also adore TSHOTP and kinda keep that book in my twisted-up headcanon, too! Haha)
Doesn't seem like an uncommon opinion at least among the Profoundly Disappointed threads. Whether other writers were ever considered is something I'd be extremely interested to know. Actually, I vaguely recall a Frost interview where he gives a reason why it was kept just him and Lynch ... I'll try to dig that up when I have time.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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