hypnotized too?

[JFK]

considering the scene in MTTH where Gruszka buys the watch and makes a deal with Majchrzak and then he touches her and similar sounds like when doris remembers the phantom are heard, and we see a painted demon hand, then fire and embers, then Gruszka, out of focus, her gestures looking confused, has anyone thought that maybe Gruszka is under the spell of Majchrzak, as ormond is at the end of the film? and did not kill Lucas' lover/wife out of emotion, but because she was in his control? it seems odd to me that one couple is killed by another couple, yet Gruszka and Majchrzak do not seem to have conspired together as they are not on the best of terms(to put it mildly). Majchrzak definitely displays a homicidal possiblity, but Gruszka as a killer hangs on the idea that she is in limbo because of it(along with adultry maybe as well) and you cant just say Gruszka murders someone out of feelings because we arent given much context for the supposed murder, other than a shot of a corpse that has still yet(unless ive missed something) to be consensusly identified and the shot of Gruszka in the hallway with the screwdriver. BUT she does not display the rage that Majchrzak does, and im not sure she has it in her. after all, since the phantoms actions are pretty much displayed as domineering and ruthless, would lost girl still be lost and trapped inside that hotel room if her actions were the same? wouldnt she have power, unless she was under the phantom's spell?

[applesnoranges]

All of that describes the sense of those scenes as I experience them, but I am not sold (either) on any one description of what is happening. One thing though, the dead woman in black: the very fact that the identity of the actress remains in question after all this time makes me gravitate to Kiddo's contention that she is an uncredited actress. Something seems to fall into place when I think of it that way. It means that her identity can only be uncovered logically, but I don't see it yet.

[Carl]

Whether she is an uncredited actress or not pales beside the real question: what character is she?
I'm inclined to believe that LG did in fact murder this character, due to her ambiguous, anxious response when she is told '...I've...seen you with this person', sex of person not given. It's the Mustachioed Man, but we only see this after the conversation.

**This Board is pretty empty, hunh? I'm deep into some crap that is taking all my time. Hope to finish in about a month( crosses fingers.)

[applesnoranges]

I think that if she is an uncredited actress, the reason for it would be exactly to point to the question of what character she is. Otherwise we'd be making up our mind basing on who she looks like. I think she could be called "the woman who was killed" safely enough. We see her both in the Polish and American parts. I also think that the fact that the woman in white is facing away means that it doesn't matter who plays her part either, but she does sound like Gruszka talking to the street girls in the snow. And Gruszka's character in the old movie is otherwise the only female in the movie who speaks Polish. And Gruszka looks pretty murderous climbing those stairs.

Yes, it seems that most people have given up on understanding what is happening just about everywhere I look. But I'm still curious. Something will just have to come to me because I too have other things to do than spending hours studying a movie and making notes etc.

I do check in here every few days though to see what's here.

[Carl]

Finally had a chance to watch the movie again last evening.
I'd say that 'self-defense' is possibly how LG comes to kill the wife of her lover( Mustache), same as with Doris. This might not be the reson she's in limbo, entirely. She did have an adulterous affair that got Mustache murdered, probably by the Phantom.
The scene where he upbraids her in the street has her on the defensive, thinking she has been seen killing her victim ( Mustache's wife) until she realizes the murdered 'person' referred to is actually her lover, then she is horror-stricken.
**Of the two visitors, #2 seems hypnotized or 'controlled', but #1 does not.
Both, though, seem to serve the same function: like the ghost of Hamlet's father they seek to 'whet the almost blunted purpose' of motivating revenge. They also seem to try and do this through forcing Nikki, then Sue to consciously confront their Persona(s).

[JFK]

but she does sound like Gruszka talking to the street girls in the snow. And Gruszka's character in the old movie is otherwise the only female in the movie who speaks Polish. And Gruszka looks pretty murderous climbing those stairs.

i agree gruszka looks like she is intent on something very serious, but i hear them as differnt voices. distinctly. TWIW is a higher tone and timbre of voice that LG. to em that is clear because of what i hear, not what i am interpeting(though of course of senses of interpeting, nontheless) whether it be murder or an encounter that might be dangerous, so that she could also be carrying it for self dense, as dern does when she meets crimp(the phantom to some)(yes i think that is her neighbor. why would vistor #2 talk about the neighbor crimp and then the next scene you see dern go next door and find Maj., the neighbor. to me, thats a detail that through the editing of the film, makes them linear(as the editing also makes it less linear too in other places) and that would mean hes probably the phantom AND crimp.

Finally had a chance to watch the movie again last evening.
I'd say that 'self-defense' is possibly how LG comes to kill the wife of her lover( Mustache), same as with Doris. This might not be the reson she's in limbo, entirely. She did have an adulterous affair that got Mustache murdered, probably by the Phantom.

id say its because LG is also being influenced by the phantom as, but eitherway the result is the same.

**Of the two visitors, #2 seems hypnotized or 'controlled', but #1 does not.).

vistor# is also wearing the watch. i think i rember a watch on vistor #1, but i dont think it was as large. interesting tho, vistor #1 is her new neighbor too.

Both, though, seem to serve the same function: like the ghost of Hamlet's father they seek to 'whet the almost blunted purpose' of motivating revenge. They also seem to try and do this through forcing Nikki, then Sue to consciously confront their Persona(s).

i like all these ideas.
i wanted to bring up another questionable sequence
when piotrek/smithy/mustache guy/not mustache guy(it's missing it in this scene, which sets him apart) is driving with janek and the driver, it looks to take place in more modern times, key ideas when you take into account what he does in these scenes, the meeting where he finds out the phantom has gone to "inland empire"(the most explict self reference spoken in the movie), the seance, LG manifesting but he cant see her, and getting the gun(and also the polish guys turning into the rabbits.) where does that whole sequence fall for you? it kinda cut through some of the cleaner interpetations of IE, and always struck me as important.

[Carl]

This is also a sequence I am not totally convinced about in terms of 'before/after'.
Is it after Smithy goes back to Poland with the Circ Z.or is it set years before that and is what gets him to the Inland Empire in the first place. I'm figuring that this sequence, including the seance are scenes in OHIBT , implying that this is the Smithy Persona. He's sent to bring the gun to hide in the drawer in Smithy's house ( though , somehow, it seems to me to resonate more if he is to hide it in the set of Smithy's House: that is, this is the Piotrek K Persona, Nikki's hubby. Still, resonance or not, I guess this interpretation would be too tendentious.)
**As to the control of the Phantom over LG( proior to the murders), that's an interesting question . I see that he tres to control her, but in the old fashioned way: through physical and emotional intimidation, not magic.

[JFK]

**As to the control of the Phantom over LG( proior to the murders), that's an interesting question . I see that he tres to control her, but in the old fashioned way: through physical and emotional intimidation, not magic.

i know its not the film proper, but the the scene in MTTH between LG and the phantom where she buys a watch for "luck" makes me think there is more than emotional manipulation at work here. but it is not in IE, so i do admit its only an indication of a possibility for their relationship.

[Carl]

Oh, surely, in that scene he definitely uses the 'magic'. That scene , presumably, takes place long after the 4 7 murders.
Of course, one might argue that all the murders take place at the same 'time' in some sense, in 'the eternal Now' or whatever, but such interpretations are not for me.
**Good point: #2 is wearing the watch. I'll look next time to see if #1 is. I didn't see it. #1 admits she has trouble telling time.
***I turned the TV volume up really loud and caught for the first time :
LG ( the one wanting the lucky watch): 'I...don't understand'
The Phantom ( as Crimp, I guess): 'I'm speaking English!'

[applesnoranges]

A couple of things. The car and the red plastic cup in the scene in the woods indicate that this is not in the past that the dark Polish scenes are in (e.g. LG at the end in the snow). I'm not sure if this was in question, but just to add a thought.

Also, I keep wondering why Lucas has a mustache in those old scenes. Is it just to mark the difference in time, as the above, or does it indicate that the man LG is watching on TV was appearing as an actor in those scenes and the mustache is a part of his character? She is in present time so she seems to have been waiting all that time.

Maybe this is another topic, but it just occurred to me that if she has been waiting all that time, she would not have been waiting there since the '30s with a modern TV and satellite dish, so how did she come to be there? She saw that room on TV in the Axxon N story of Man #1 and Woman #1 so it's tempting to say she inserted herself into that drama, yet that drama was on the TV already. In other words, suppose her death too place back in the time of the Polish scenes. Where would she be until the modern hotel room scene? Or was the death in the past only a death of a character she played, as Nikki played Sue etc., and no real time of her own has elapsed? Are she and Nikki are then peers so to speak in their own worlds, each of whom had characters that died? Sorry for the confusion but these thoughts are just forming and I'm wondering if I'm coming upon another, simpler way to view this.

[JFK]

A couple of things. The car and the red plastic cup in the scene in the woods indicate that this is not in the past that the dark Polish scenes are in (e.g. LG at the end in the snow). I'm not sure if this was in question, but just to add a thought.

ive been wondering about that as well. he looks more like smithy in this sequence, yet the clothes and car, as apples pointed out, are quite modern. im almost inclined to say that since this meeting has janek involved, who is first seen with the phantom and may or may not be jack rabbit, that lucas here is crossing worlds, from poland to the inland empire, where he is told the phantom has gone. which makes the seance scene make more sense(at least to me) in that lucas is also looking for an opening of sorts(and LG is trying to make contact with him), and takes the gun that is used later by dern to shoot the phantom at the end. the fact that lucas seemingly plays at least three characters makes me wonder how different they really are, beyond the surface. as if he is searching for LG, his love from poland, and by becoming piotrek krol, enables nikki to become sue, and he becomes smithy, so that LG can be found. apologies if im fuzzy here, long day of work, and not done yet. but im glad you mentioned this apples, as i was planning to expand on this soon, and i think we all may not be so far apart on our interpetations as we sometimes think. im going to have to ponder the rest of your post as this is all the thinking i can do tonight. glad to see thoughts rolling again on here. sometimes its best to take a step away for a bit, in order to see in another way when one returns.