Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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missoulamt
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Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby missoulamt » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:39 am

With some time having passed, what are your thoughts on this scene?

Personally, the first time I saw it I couldn't believe that the monumental killing of Bob played out on an almost parodic B horror movie level. It was sad.

Watching it again it's perhaps a bit stronger but so empty on atmosphere that it couldn't be further removed from the vibe conjured up in the original.

Would you agree?
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby eyeboogers » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:39 pm

missoulamt wrote:With some time having passed, what are your thoughts on this scene?

Personally, the first time I saw it I couldn't believe that the monumental killing of Bob played out on an almost parodic B horror movie level. It was sad.

Watching it again it's perhaps a bit stronger but so empty on atmosphere that it couldn't be further removed from the vibe conjured up in the original.

Would you agree?


Mark Frost has made several comments about that scene being an extreme example of Deus Ex Machina writing. That victory is supposed to feel hollow/unearned. Our protagonist is passive in the scene, it isn't Dale slaying the dragon, and therefor he himself does not become whole.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:30 pm

It’s still maybe the part of TP:TR that leaves me most conflicted. Having freeze-framed a lot of this sequence, I admire the artistry behind the use of light and color, which is quite beautiful in individual shots, as well as the way the wonky whip-cam shooting style and editorial overlaps abstract and distort the characters’ forms from frame to frame. Still, watching it in real-time, I agree that it still feels oddly cheap and lacking in atmosphere. I also get the argument that it’s meant to be unfulfilling and that Frost has implied that he intends it to be read ironically. However, I’m not entirely certain that Lynch meant it that way, and still wonder what his intentions were in the execution. I can’t help imagining the more elaborate epic version of the scene he describes in the BTS footage (with black rain), and wonder if the ultimate execution was a budget-fueled compromise that fell short of his vision.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby LateReg » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:00 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:It’s still maybe the part of TP:TR that leaves me most conflicted. Having freeze-framed a lot of this sequence, I admire the artistry behind the use of light and color, which is quite beautiful in individual shots, as well as the way the wonky whip-cam shooting style and editorial overlaps abstract and distort the characters’ forms from frame to frame. Still, watching it in real-time, I agree that it still feels oddly cheap and lacking in atmosphere. I also get the argument that it’s meant to be unfulfilling and that Frost has implied that he intends it to be read ironically. However, I’m not entirely certain that Lynch meant it that way, and still wonder what his intentions were in the execution. I can’t help imagining the more elaborate epic version of the scene he describes in the BTS footage (with black rain), and wonder if the ultimate execution was a budget-fueled compromise that fell short of his vision.


When I watched the BTS I never caught on that he had a much more elaborate version of the scene in mind. I've said this before when some folks criticized the scene by saying that Lynch meant the scene to be so much more than it was. I'd like a transcript of what he actually says, because I never caught on to this far more elaborate vision, and I don't know why, as I was pretty damn focused on every word he was saying. I do recall him talking about having no clue what to do while everybody is standing around, but I don't recall the actual discussion of a more elaborate vision. I just must have missed it. But I also believe that whatever that more elaborate vision was could have been executed in the editing room, had Lynch decided to stick with that vision.

Anyway, my thoughts on the scene are well-documented throughout the message board. It is up for debate regarding intent, for sure, as I can see both its insincerity as well as its sincerity (as suggested by Needleman). For my part, I see it as working on an intellectual level, as well as on a visceral one as I think the scene is quite intense; I also think its a stunning and gonzo work of art, as Reindeer illustrated, if you break it down shot by shot. But I also believe that it is dissatisfying as a straightforward conclusion to a major part of the story, though the question remains whether or not that was the actual end of BOB, which I don't believe it was, as well as whether or not that is exactly what I'm supposed to be feeling: dissatisfaction, confusion, etc. So at the end of the day my feelings wrap around themselves and I think the scene is a triumph that fleshes out so many of The Return's core themes, especially regarding Cooper, the endless battle between good and evil (you can't simply punch evil in the face and have it disappear), and viewer expectations. At the end of the day, regardless of what Mark Frost's book says, we really have no idea whether that scene takes place in reality, or as the umpteenth attempt in multiple timelines of trying to remove Bob from the world, or in some overlapping otherworld or mental headspace where Cooper resides as he is repeatedly trying to escape the Black Lodge. In other words, the scene is both wide open to interpretation and quite hard to judge, and I prefer to think of what the scene means and how it feels rather than merely as a point of story. To me, that is the story.
Last edited by LateReg on Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby bowisneski » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:22 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:However, I’m not entirely certain that Lynch meant it that way, and still wonder what his intentions were in the execution. I can’t help imagining the more elaborate epic version of the scene he describes in the BTS footage (with black rain), and wonder if the ultimate execution was a budget-fueled compromise that fell short of his vision.


When I watched the BTS I never caught on that he had a much more elaborate version of the scene in mind. I've said this before when some folks criticized the scene by saying that Lynch meant the scene to be so much more than it was. I'd like a transcript of what he actually says, because I never caught on to this far more elaborate vision, and I don't know why, as I was pretty damn focused on every word he was saying. I do recall him talking about having no clue what to do while everybody is standing around, but I don't recall the actual discussion of a more elaborate vision. And I also believe that whatever that more elaborate vision was could have been executed in the editing room, had Lynch decided to stick with that vision.

I'll work on a direct transcription when I get some time to go through the bonus features again because I don't remember which segment it's from, but, from what I remember, it would've essentially been the same scene except the BOrB would've sprouted arms with which to beat the shit out of Freddie and after BOB was dispatched, there would've been some black rain in Frank's office.

As far as the scene itself, it is one of the few parts of the show that I truly don't care for. I know that this is supposed to be what was intended, but it was the only part that didn't and doesn't feel like Twin Peaks to me. And I actually like Freddie and his ridiculous glove. I enjoy his expository scene, the bar fight, and busting everyone out of jail but I wish it would've ended there and that would've been his destiny. The only thing it felt like it matched in any other moment of Peaks, for me, is Andy's Little Nicky thought bubble. I can take it for what it is, but I don't like it.

EDIT - a quoted post from over in the Bluray thread
Trudy Chelgren wrote:The BTS insights are fascinating. When Lynch describes Freddie's fight with Bob, it sounds so much more visceral, disturbing, intimate and apocalyptic than what I experienced in Part 17. The light in Freddie's glove, "Bob distorts across the room", Bob's arms, the black rain. It sounds like it was too elaborate to carry out, which is a shame maybe. The final scene feels choppy.

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3330&p=114608&hilit=black+rain#p114608
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby LateReg » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:30 pm

bowisneski wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:However, I’m not entirely certain that Lynch meant it that way, and still wonder what his intentions were in the execution. I can’t help imagining the more elaborate epic version of the scene he describes in the BTS footage (with black rain), and wonder if the ultimate execution was a budget-fueled compromise that fell short of his vision.


When I watched the BTS I never caught on that he had a much more elaborate version of the scene in mind. I've said this before when some folks criticized the scene by saying that Lynch meant the scene to be so much more than it was. I'd like a transcript of what he actually says, because I never caught on to this far more elaborate vision, and I don't know why, as I was pretty damn focused on every word he was saying. I do recall him talking about having no clue what to do while everybody is standing around, but I don't recall the actual discussion of a more elaborate vision. And I also believe that whatever that more elaborate vision was could have been executed in the editing room, had Lynch decided to stick with that vision.

I'll work on a direct transcription when I get some time to go through the bonus features again because I don't remember which segment it's from, but, from what I remember, it would've essentially been the same scene except the BOrB would've sprouted arms with which to beat the shit out of Freddie and after BOB was dispatched, there would've been some black rain in Frank's office.

As far as the scene itself, it is one of the few parts of the show that I truly don't care for. I know that this is supposed to be what was intended, but it was the only part that didn't and doesn't feel like Twin Peaks to me. And I actually like Freddie and his ridiculous glove. I enjoy his expository scene, the bar fight, and busting everyone out of jail but I wish it would've ended there and that would've been his destiny. The only thing it felt like it matched in any other moment of Peaks, for me, is Andy's Little Nicky thought bubble. I can take it for what it is, but I don't like it.


Thanks, I don't know how I didn't catch that, but if that was the extent of the discussion, then maybe I had sneezed or something!

I don't "like" the scene either, not exactly. But I love the exercise of it, especially when I'm on a certain wavelength where everything on the screen - plot, intent, theme, effects, etc. - is combining to form what I'd call the actual story. Meanwhile, I do agree and admit to feeling the same way at the moment when Freddie saved Andy that that was perhaps Freddie's destiny, and I had breathed a sigh of relief as I had bought into the idea suggested by someone on this board that Freddie would have to go around crushing some heads like the Woodsman. So, I was relieved when I thought that Freddie's destiny was a "small" thing like saving Andy's life.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:38 pm

I posted a while back about how menacing BOB was, and how in contrast the Woodsmen just seemed silly because BOB can take you over, corrupt you, cause you to betray the ones you love and ultimately ruin your reality, whereas the Woodsmen just pop your head like a cherry tomato and bam, you're history.

Only repeating it here because this scene sort of treats BOB the same way as the Woodsmen: He's gonna "get you" so you better smash him before he smashes you. It reminds me of a crappy video game with no substance and no scare. I was not terrified of BOB nor worried for anyone's Earthly Soul. Instead, I was merely happy to see Frank Silva, and put off by everything else.

A possible solution that could have been used:

BOB emerges from Mr. C and floats off. MIKE helps Cooper find him in the hospital basement. Cue footage from the International Pilot, but every time Cooper and Truman are shown, they are shown as they appear now using newly filmed footage. BOB gives his speech, then when MIKE shoots BOB dead, and Cooper says "Make a wish", he says it like Mr. C or perhaps Richard would (he basically does this in the original footage anyway). Cooper then returns to the station and places the ring on Mr. C.

This solution would have made it possible for Lynch and Frost to officially incorporate that footage into the show, while still allowing Cooper to leave the dirty work to someone else.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby LateReg » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:38 pm

bowisneski wrote:EDIT - a quoted post from over in the Bluray thread
Trudy Chelgren wrote:The BTS insights are fascinating. When Lynch describes Freddie's fight with Bob, it sounds so much more visceral, disturbing, intimate and apocalyptic than what I experienced in Part 17. The light in Freddie's glove, "Bob distorts across the room", Bob's arms, the black rain. It sounds like it was too elaborate to carry out, which is a shame maybe. The final scene feels choppy.

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3330&p=114608&hilit=black+rain#p114608


Yeah, that exact post is the one that I had disputed, actually, specifically because I felt the final scene was very close to what was being described there! But clearly I can't remember Lynch's exact words now, and I think when I had read Trudy's post I thought that its words were doing their own bit of interpretation and required some imagination, perhaps fueled by disappointment in the scene as it exists, which, once again, I felt was pretty close to what Lynch was apparently describing. But, I admit I cannot remember Lynch's exact words and am only going off of Trudy's.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby LateReg » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:45 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:I posted a while back about how menacing BOB was, and how in contrast the Woodsmen just seemed silly because BOB can take you over, corrupt you, cause you to betray the ones you love and ultimately ruin your reality, whereas the Woodsmen just pop your head like a cherry tomato and bam, you're history.

Only repeating it here because this scene sort of treats BOB the same way as the Woodsmen: He's gonna "get you" so you better smash him before he smashes you. It reminds me of a crappy video game with no substance and no scare. I was not terrified of BOB nor worried for anyone's Earthly Soul. Instead, I was merely happy to see Frank Silva, and put off by everything else.

A possible solution that could have been used:

BOB emerges from Mr. C and floats off. MIKE helps Cooper find him in the hospital basement. Cue footage from the International Pilot, but every time Cooper and Truman are shown, they are shown as they appear now using newly filmed footage. BOB gives his speech, then when MIKE shoots BOB dead, and Cooper says "Make a wish", he says it like Mr. C or perhaps Richard would (he basically does this in the original footage anyway). Cooper then returns to the station and places the ring on Mr. C.

This solution would have made it possible for Lynch and Frost to officially incorporate that footage into the show, while still allowing Cooper to leave the dirty work to someone else.


That is a very good solution! Damn!

On the other hand, I think what you're feeling about the scene as it exists is not far off from how you're supposed to be feeling: disappointed, "no substance," much like much of today's entertainment that climaxes with a gloved superhero punching evil in the face, and so many other interpretations that make perfect sense to me. That's why it's so interesting to debate.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:51 pm

I know someone had speculated at one point that for Frost, the scene might have manifested from his frustrations working on the poorly-received (and very messy production-wise) mid-2000s Fantastic Four films. Interestingly enough, Mark has expressed affection for the first film, and for comic books and the superhero genre in general as modern myths: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/amp/fant ... lms-a71727
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Deep Thought » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:13 pm

Is it too simple to say Cooper is to Richard as Betty is to Diane Selwyn? Well yes, I think it is a bit too simple as I suppose Richard may be one relatively small step removed from Diane's reality, but that's the frame in which I've rewatched the show.

In this context, the green glove serves as a symbol of . . . what? An abandonment of more measured and intuitive approach as Richard becomes more self-aware? A retreat to a deeper fantasy of instant gratification, (a relapse if you will)? The genuine jolt Richard needs to head backstage and see whatzit goin' on back there? There is no question the green glove signals a sudden break with the status quo.

As to whether I think the scene works, I'd say it's very silly, but it's not quite absurd. I think it would have been more effective had it been more Absurda-ian.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby N. Needleman » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:19 pm

missoulamt wrote:Would you agree?


No. I fucking love it.

I never felt it was "unearned". I do think part of the scene is a deliberate subversion of the deus ex machina concept, yes - but I believe we are supposed to engage with it honestly and earnestly as Lynch generally does, and as we would've had Jack Nance/Pete? worn the green glove, as Lynch has said he once intended in some other project (or perhaps TP) many years ago.

Whether the idea of taking the scene mostly in earnest violates people's ideas of what TP should be is their business, but that is not my problem. I do feel and have always felt the scene is meant to be both earnest and subversive - like most of Twin Peaks in general. Lynch is invested in the battle and feels its weight, but also feels there is something deeper/contrary behind it yet to be revealed. And there is, at the end of the episode and in Part 18. Yes, the victory over BOB is real (and I do think that's it for BOB myself - I think we've moved on to bigger fish, i.e. Judy). And no, it is never that simple. The God/Fireman/green glove/deus ex machina - in the machine - is never enough to solve the bigger problem. The true danger is Cooper's own demons and hubris that leads him to live inside of a dream - possibly forever.

People are always scared of taking Lynch at his word with stuff like this - whether it's Sarah crying and crying in the pilot, or this scene or so many others. He always means it.
Last edited by N. Needleman on Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Hester Prynne » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:23 pm

I'm doing a complete rewatch now and wonder how I will feel when I watch 17 - I'm through 8, and so far, it's been a different experience watching it in its entirety the second time around.

My first feeling when watching the fight scene was more confusion than disappointment. I don't know if that is what Lynch/Frost intended or not -- Lynch seemed really amped up and excited in the BTS footage about shooting this scene.

Part of my confusion was why they felt it was necessary to the story. When DoppelCoop dies, why doesn't Bob get sucked back into the lodge? Isn't that what happened when Leland died?

I like Mr. Strawberry's version - especially since Mike would be responsible for Bob's destruction. Any chance the green glove belonged to Mike or a Woodsman?
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby StealThisCorn » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:22 pm

Still don't care for it. To me, it feels too silly and too literal. BUF's work on their "CGI Bob" remains impressive, however. If I had to edit this scene using only the available footage, I would begin with Cooper placing the Ring on his doppelganger's finger and cut to a sequence containing the close up shots of Bob's face screaming in fury to cacophonic sound before transitioning to the doppelganger fading away. This to me would feel more appropriately abstract and sort of feel similar to Bob screaming in fury at Laura in the train car in Episode 8 of Season 2, which the film provides additional context to by revealing this occurs after Laura herself takes this same Ring.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Xavi » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:00 am

Actually, the more I think about it the more this thought feels spot on, to me: the blue box in MD has the same connotation as the green glove in TPS3 - it facilitates a passage to another realm, to another stage of awareness (if you please).

In TPS3 I recognise 4 stages of awareness:

1. vegetable (the ordinary everyday office-life) [timeless]
2. divine - thinking and acting go hand in hand [always now]
3. death, 7 to 3 [time does not progress]
4. in-between [time's disrupted]

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