No Ray Wise?

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krishnanspace
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby krishnanspace » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:48 pm

Hi Mordeen!!! Long time!

Mordeen wrote:The NDA is still active and this forum is still being monitored, so that's all I can say.
-Mordeen


So basically, "It is in our house now. It all cannot be said aloud now"
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:33 pm

Hey hey! Coming back here from Facebook to see that people are still eating their own kind is a bit of a bummer but I missed a lot of the classy people that prop it up and rise above. Hope you've all been well.

-Mordeen
Moving Through Time. . .
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:09 pm

Mordeen wrote:- He's all but completely absent from the promotion of the show in a significant way
- He releases the first book and makes a point on his book tour of contradicting specific facts from the show in his introductory monologues
- Lynch pointedly says the books are "Mark's version"
- Cast members confide that Lynch rewrote scenes on the spot, going wildly off script
- He did this to Mark with the Episode 29 script, literally tearing out the heart of what Mark wrote, which caused a rift between them that lasted decades


First of all, it’s good to see you back!

Second, with all deference to you and your sources, who undeniably provided good information but also (by your own admission) some unreliable information, I just want to address each of these points....

- I agree. It is weird that Mark all but disappeared from promotion while the show was on the air (although he was very active both immediately before and after the show was airing). The L/F dynamic has always confused me. They almost never appear together, and it’s difficult for me to even envision them interacting. However, when I met Mark on the tour for TSHoTP, he seemed extremely enthusiastic about the show and DKL’s vision, and that has continued in his interviews and podcast appearances since the show has ended. Also, the official story for his disappearance from the set is that he has wanted to write a “history of TP” book since the ‘90s (a documented fact — he mentioned it in interviews at the time, and the Access Guide is clearly a dry run), and he decided to go off and take his opportunity while DKL shot the show. The reality may be more nuanced, and you might have more detailed insider info...but on its face, this explanation for his absence from the set sounds reasonable to me.
- I’m not sure what in particular you are saying he contradicted in his book tour intro. I saw him in Manhattan, and the only oddity in the intro was Lana winning Miss Twin Peaks — which contradicts S2, not TP:TR. TFD certainly has some weird conflicts with TP:TR. However, while that book contradicts certain things about TP:TR, both books also WILDLY contradict events from the original show — including episodes Mark himself show-ran, which DKL has essentially disavowed. If Frost really wanted to stick it to DKL, he would have fully committed to his own canon, instead of playfully twisting it. I don’t think anything can be read into any canonical departures from TP:TR in the books, since they play pretty fast and loose with even internal consistency (Robert Jacoby’s multiple death dates, etc.), and alternate realities are clearly at play.
- DKL has also told his own daughter he has no interest in reading TSDoLP. It’s not personal. He doesn’t want anything to pollute his highly personal vision of TP, and anyone who has read enough interviews with him understands how fragile he views his creative worlds to be. He likes to place the dust under the radiator himself, as it were.
- DKL departs from the scripts and improvises on set on most of his films, both those he fully wrote and those he cowrote. We wouldn’t have Bob if not for a reflection in a mirror. This doesn’t necessarily mean Mark is resentful. He has embraced many of DKL’s improvised elements, like Bob and the Red Room, as indispensable parts of the canon.
- Both Frost and Lynch have said that E29 was a huge influence on the basic conception of the new show. Whatever resentment Frost may have had about DKL throwing out the original E29 script, he has since acknowledged that what ended up onscreen was a vast improvement.

All that being said, in DKL’s biography Room to Dream, Tony Krantz (the agent who first united L/F) repeatedly says that Frost was jealous of DKL getting all the credit in the 1990s. It is certainly possible that history repeated itself, and Frost again found himself feeling resentful during the filming of TP:TR. But all of your bulletpoints are speculative and don’t meaningfully support this conclusion, IMO, and at the very least, Frost has kept a good game-face about being very enthusiastic regarding the final product.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:19 am

Mordeen wrote:Yes, despite the deviations, the show stuck to the overall concept. But it was no secret that Lynch's off-the-cuff style was prickly.

The Ending...which just might have not been the End, but rather that the beginning was the end. They were playing with that Golden Circle for sure.

-Mordeen


This is intriguing. If I’m reading you right, you seem to be implying that the opening Dale/Fireman scene was moved up in the edit (as some have speculated).

As to Mr. Wise (to get back on topic), I would have loved to see more of him, but I don’t necessarily see how he was “sold a bill of goods.” Maybe his role diminished from what was planned or “promised” to him as the script evolved, but unless he gave up on other jobs, he didn’t lose anything. Actors’ roles get scaled back or cut altogether frequently in Hollywood for the greater good of the overall project. It’s not personal, and it’s an accepted part of the business.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:37 am

I can't speak to exactly how it ended up that his role was vastly diminished from what was offered up, because asking for details would have gone into treacherous legal territory. For what it's worth, I just wanted to try and lend some insight into the what, not necessarily the why.

-Mordeen
Moving Through Time. . .
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:43 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Mordeen wrote:Yes, despite the deviations, the show stuck to the overall concept. But it was no secret that Lynch's off-the-cuff style was prickly.

The Ending...which just might have not been the End, but rather that the beginning was the end. They were playing with that Golden Circle for sure.

-Mordeen


This is intriguing. If I’m reading you right, you seem to be implying that the opening Dale/Fireman scene was moved up in the edit (as some have speculated).


Is it future, or is it past?

-Mordeen
Moving Through Time. . .
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:10 am

Mordeen wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Mordeen wrote:Yes, despite the deviations, the show stuck to the overall concept. But it was no secret that Lynch's off-the-cuff style was prickly.

The Ending...which just might have not been the End, but rather that the beginning was the end. They were playing with that Golden Circle for sure.

-Mordeen


This is intriguing. If I’m reading you right, you seem to be implying that the opening Dale/Fireman scene was moved up in the edit (as some have speculated).


Is it future, or is it past?

-Mordeen


Loving these teases Mordeen :-D

I seem to remember Kyle also stating that the "What year is this?" scene was the original opening for the season. Although it is difficult to imagine how those pieces were supposed to come together - and what wasn't filmed.

We know (again from Kyle) that there were Cooper scenes filmed but not used, that would have brought the character back at an earlier point of the season - presumably scenes similar to the "You are far away" scene with The Fireman. Is it future or is it past? Well the scene is in black and white, and we know from episode 3 that this particular mansion can be seen in color. So I am making an educated guess on 'past'".

Chiefly I wonder how the original ending was. It couldn't simply have been the "You are far away" scene, that would have been a bit flat, unless we somehow saw where Coop traveled from there.

Tomorrow I am attending a theatrical screening of TPTR episode 1-2 and 8. Looking forward to seeing it again with these things in the back of my head.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Henrys Hair » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:30 am

eyeboogers wrote:
Chiefly I wonder how the original ending was.


Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if it originally ended with Cooper leading Laura through the woods, then looking behind him to find Laura gone (as in ep 17).
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby N. Needleman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:32 am

Based on a mixture of anecdotal evidence from Frost himself and some informed speculation, I don't believe the ending was ever anything other than what it was. But that's me.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:56 am

N. Needleman wrote:Based on a mixture of anecdotal evidence from Frost himself and some informed speculation, I don't believe the ending was ever anything other than what it was. But that's me.


What did Frost say, do you remember? I always thought it was odd that they allowed fans close to shooting that exact scene. It would make more sense if it was anyways the first thing we'd see, and Kyle definitely said that was the orignal plan. Of course the scene could have repeated.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby N. Needleman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:58 am

Frost has talked at length about the ending of Season 3 being what he and Lynch crafted, and the thematic reasons for it.

I have never seen anything to suggest the final scene was originally intended to air earlier or repeat. Kyle never said that, either.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:18 am

N. Needleman wrote:Frost has talked at length about the ending of Season 3 being what he and Lynch crafted, and the thematic reasons for it.

I have never seen anything to suggest the final scene was originally intended to air earlier or repeat. Kyle never said that, either.


He definitely did, in at least one interview from last fall. Will post when I have time to dig it up. I think it might have been a lenghty video interview. Same one where he mentioned the other Fireman/Coop scene.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:21 am

The BTS showed the Fireman in the Red Room. It’s possible Kyle was just talking about that.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby mtwentz » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:21 am

I've never seen Lynch's remarks about Frost's novelization of the Season 3 to be a big deal. He is simply reiterating that he did not work on the book, like he did not work on Jennifer's book, so there may be some different interpretations between the book and the movie/series. BTW, I think that applies to every novelization of a film or series or musical theater.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby bosguy1981 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:03 pm

Oh, how I would love to read the early versions of the season 3 script!!

I wonder if maybe, just maybe, the dropped scenes that were written were things between Leland and the Man from Another Place in the Lodge and when Michael J. Anderson dropped out, the ideas didn't seem as cool to Lynch if done with either Gerard or the CGI Arm. I wonder what happened there with Ray. Hmmm!

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