Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:29 pm

I just rewatched this for the first time since the finale. The Billy thing still confounds. I notice that in the Roadhouse, when Megan and Sophie are speaking, the background ambient noise of the Roadhouse went totally silent after an ominous sound right after Megan says her mom's name is Tina.

Is Billy Lodge-associated like Naido and Jeffries? Reason I ask is because Megan can't remember chunks of the Billy story, like whether or not her uncle was there. This was the third reference to forgetting or not being able to remember, after the Jeffries FWWM flashback and the Jack Rabbit's Palace sequence, which seems way too intentional to me.

Also, Sophie definitely starts looking suspicious or hostile toward Megan after she finishes the story and I have no idea what that means.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:49 pm

I was looking around at a few scenes from several parts, on Showtime On Demand through my cable, and found something different in the Sarah scene in the bar. When she removes her face, the image crops inward suddenly. It's not a camera zoom. It left little headroom and seemed not what I recalled, so I checked my DVR recording from last year. Sure enough, the cropping didn't happen. It was changed for some reason by someone with the On Demand; don't know if this is present on the disc. Odd.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:02 pm

IcedOver wrote:I was looking around at a few scenes from several parts, on Showtime On Demand through my cable, and found something different in the Sarah scene in the bar. When she removes her face, the image crops inward suddenly. It's not a camera zoom. It left little headroom and seemed not what I recalled, so I checked my DVR recording from last year. Sure enough, the cropping didn't happen. It was changed for some reason by someone with the On Demand; don't know if this is present on the disc. Odd.

Oh yeah, I'd totally forgotten about that, but enumbs noticed it earlier this year.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:28 pm

Man, Wild West sort of pumps me up with this hopeful feeling about where we’re headed everytime I rewatch, despite knowing where we’re headed isn’t a world where all you lose you get back and all you want you can have. I know some people were down on it but I like it as a song and from a thematic standpoint. Oddly, one of my favorite Roadhouse performances everytime I’ve watched the episode except the first time.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon May 25, 2020 4:44 pm

Some of the Parts blend together for me a little bit, but this one sticks in my head so vividly in its entirety. It's partly because I first watched it under unique and very aggravating circumstances (in the lobby of a Puerto Rico hotel on my laptop with absolutely terrible Internet service, so it kept freezing), so that experience is seared in my mind, and I can clearly recall watching every scene for the first time in that lobby, and what my visceral reactions were. All that baggage aside, however, it's really a terrific Part from start to finish, one of my favorites.

This is also the first one in a long time where all the scenes take place on the same day (October 1), and the Part progresses in linear fashion from day into night. Technically, future Parts continue to loop back and have scenes that "should have" been in this Part if the series were fully linear. But it feels like time is starting to come back together.

Some of the series establishing shots where LA doubles for Vegas or wherever are kinda lazy, with banners and passing buses clearly marking the location as LA. So I appreciate that they actually went to the trouble of creating a Buckhorn banner to hang in front of the Mayfair.

I'm never quite sure how much I'm repeating myself since I've written so much on TR in general here the last few years, and have also done a few rewatches where I put my thoughts down in these threads. So I do apologize if certain things I say sound like a broken record. That being said, I KNOW I've said this before, but I can't help repeating it. That scene of Gordon talking to Lucy still gets a gut reaction from me of pure joy. We've gone so many Parts with Twin Peaks seeming completely cut off from Cooper's storyline, the FBI storyline, etc., despite so much that happens in those storylines revolving around the town. That withholding of any outside character having contact with the town for 13 Parts makes this opening scene so effective and wonderful. When I first watched it, I couldn't BELIEVE that bam, right out of the gate, we have Gordon calling the sheriff's department! I immediately flash back to him standing in front of Lucy's desk in Episode 14, eating donuts with the One-Armed Man. All the dialogue, the delivery, the pauses...everything about that scene is perfection. So is the following scene, with him learning that Harry is ill. I sort of wish there'd been a chance at some point for Albert to learn that Harry is sick. Their unlikely bromance in the back half of season 2 is one of my favorite little things.

I assume someone's mentioned this, but I've noticed in a few Parts that Frank has a wooden sculpture of corn stalks behind his desk. Appropriate to Hawk's map. I thought he also had a wooden owl, but I don't see it in this Part.

I've probably said this too, but I adore the absurdity of the FBI having that Bondian portable nerve center of equipment in the hotel room. Was all that on that tiny plane? Along with half Gordon's wine cellar, apparently? :lol:

I've speculated that maybe Janey-E is a tulpa due to her naming, but I know it's a dangerous rabbit hole to start screaming "tulpa" at every character. I really wonder how Dougie ended up with her though. It seems like a big coincidence, unless Mr. C planned it for some reason. But if he did, it seems like a risk that Diane and Janey-E might mend fences and Diane would recognize Cooper, or a version of him. I guess it doesn't matter since this Diane is under his control, but it's all pretty strange.

The unnecessarily ostentatious way Frank picks up his roast beef and cheese sandwich is so funny. Forster is so cool. Forster has always been cool.

I wonder exactly how much Garland foresaw in literal terms about what was to come, vs. just receiving opaque messages about what to do. For instance, he knew Jack Rabbit's Palace had some significance even when Bobby was a little kid (he tells him not to go there alone), and he sows all the seeds for the sheriff's crew to find Naido. But I sincerely doubt he knew Naido existed or what her significance was. I wonder what he thought/expected to happen when they went to that place on that date. I also wonder how many of the "tall tales" Garland told Bobby had some significance. Either way, I would happily listen to Don Davis tell tall tales (or just talk in general) for hours.

Just seeing the former road to Garland's listening post gives me chills. I love when TR fills in little between-the-lines or off-screen elements of the original show. Now I imagine Garland driving down that road after receiving the "Cooper Cooper Cooper" message.

TR started out seeming like it was going to take full advantage of being on premium cable, with female nudity in Part 1 (Tracey) and Part 3 (Jade). However, that was pretty much it, up until Naido in this Part. Again, I will mention that my first time watching was in a hotel common area with people walking by, and this scene took about 8 minutes to play due to the constant freezes. I spent more time awkwardly peering over my shoulder and trying to shield the screen with my body than actually enjoying the scene that first time.

So we know of two portals in or near Twin Peaks (Glastonbury Grove for the Red Room and this golden one for the Fireman's). I wonder if there are always dual portals in close proximity, one for each Lodge, or if Twin Peaks just got lucky? What are the other portals we know of...Buckhorn (Dutchman's), Buenos Aires maybe. Am I forgetting any? I guess there's a bunch more in the books.

Andy sees:
-- Judy (from Part 1)
-- Judy vomiting Bob
-- The convenience store with Woodsmen
-- "Gotta light?"
-- Electrical wires crackling at night (I think this is from a Mr. C driving sequence in the next Part, IIRC)
-- Anguished girl running at Twin Peaks HS in Pilot after Laura's death
-- Red Room curtains, Laura flanked with angels superimposed (I forgot the angels had an appearance in TR! Not my favorite TP imagery, but good for Lorna MacMillan)
-- Naido naked just as Andy left her
-- Cooper and his Doppelgänger in the Red Room, their faces moving in and out of phase with each other
-- Lucy's phone with a blinking light
-- Andy guiding Lucy into place
-- Andy holding Naido's hand seconds earlier
-- The electric pole in Odessa

For the most part, this is straightforward-ish: he's given a cliff notes glimpse into the mythology/the evil we're facing, is shown Naido so he knows she's important and needs to be protected, and is shown what Lucy needs to do in Part 17. The focus on Laura is intriguing, though. Obviously there's a lot to be unwound with Laura in light of Part 8, and I'm not sure we've really begun to scratch the surface, but apparently there's something about her the Fireman thought Andy needed to know, between the crying girl, the angels shot, and even giving Andy a glimpse at the Odessaverse! I'm hoping I'll have more thoughts on it at some point. Right now I'm just opening up the floor to ideas, I guess.

I am happy to report that THIS is the Part with the least Cooper! I was a little worried this one would beat out Part 12 on a technicality, but thankfully his screen time is less than Part 12’s 23 seconds! The (mostly) headless shot in Gordon's dream is five seconds, and the "faces" shot in Andy's vision is 12 seconds, for a whopping 17 seconds of Cooper. EDIT: Ah, nuts. I realized I wasn’t counting the archive footage from FWWM. That’s another 27 seconds. So technically Part 13 is the Part with the least Cooper onscreen, but YMMV how much of Part 14’s footage you count or don’t.

Returning again to my musings from the Part 13 thread: The idea of parallel universes continues to be toyed with in an abstract way, with the beautifully edited shot of multiple Franks, Hawks and Bobbys walking in and out of each other before each of them re-forms into a whole. This also calls to mind Lynch deliberately using the alternate take of the Jeffries scene. I think it also goes to a lot of what Mark was playing with in the books in terms of subjective reality. These slight divergences, where maybe there's some other universe where you said something a little differently or went to the opposite side of a room...and maybe for a second that universe intersects or overlaps with this one and you catch a glimpse of it, like Ed looking in the window.

Every time I watch this, I wonder: How the hell did a dog "get lost" in that sheriff's station? It doesn't seem that big!

Freddie telling his story is a whopping 5 minutes of screen time, just him reciting exposition with occasional interjections or questions from James. It's such a joyfully defiant violation of the traditional "show don't tell" rule of storytelling. Lynch hates rules.

Watching that Sarah scene for the first time in a common area of a hotel was also a really weird experience. She’s always been one of my favorite characters, and her short appearances in TR up to this point made her even moreso. I thought I understood her, and when she takes a bite out of that guy’s neck, it was like watching a friend you thought you knew murder someone in front of you. I felt so betrayed and conflicted, and exposed because I was having this reaction with people all around me. Even under those weird circumstances, I loved what I was seeing, though, and felt the rightness of it. I think I spent the next day feeling weirdly tarnished and confused, almost in a daze, trying to process how I felt about that twist. Like how you feel after waking up from a really strange visceral dream.

Again, enough great things cannot be said about Grace, but I really love it when she's just a defiant badass. "Yeah. Sure is a mystery, huh?"

Continuing thoughts on Audrey (even though she isn't in this one): It's interesting that two of the three other people in the ostensible "real" world who talk about Billy are played by DKL's relatives: Riley and Emily Stofle. It definitely adds a meta/unreal element to the proceedings that I don't think I'd considered before. Add to that that the other person who talks about him is played by an actress named Shane Lynch! Unfortunately, she doesn't appear to be a relation...but damn.

I'm more and more convinced that Audrey is in a mental institution and made a contract with Charlie to escape in some form, either as a tulpa or more likely to an artificially created space. Note here that Sophie keeps accusing Megan of hanging out at the nuthouse! Megan denies this but says she's getting high in her room (they give you drugs when you're institutionalized). Also note that in all the other Roadhouse scenes the characters drink real beer brands, but here Sophie is clearly drinking from a prop bottle with a fake brand label, "American Colonial Beer" (I found it on this prop maker's website). This adds to my sense that the scene is meant to be artificial or manufactured (unless you freeze frame, it looks like the bottle just says BEER on it in giant capital letters). (Full disclosure: James does order "two Colonials" at the bar in Part 2, so this arguably is a real brand in the TP universe.) More and more, I'm feeling like these scenes are in a constructed reality while all these people are in an asylum, although this does admittedly make the stuff about Megan's mom and Billy a bit tough to parse out.

Two other weird things about that scene: the bizarre focus on Megan not knowing whether or not her uncle was there. It reminds me of Chet’s line from FWWM: “What’s missing in that sentence? The uncle.” But I don’t think that’s what’s going on there. The other oddity is the ominous drone that starts when Megan says her mother’s name is Tina. I get that it ties into Part 12’s Audrey scene, but I’m not really sure what else we’re supposed to take from that reveal.

No Dale's Diet for this one, but Gordon recommends the cappuccino at Creperie Plougastel if you ever find yourself in Paris, or just dreaming about it!
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Tue May 26, 2020 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon May 25, 2020 8:34 pm

bowisneski wrote:Man, Wild West sort of pumps me up with this hopeful feeling about where we’re headed everytime I rewatch, despite knowing where we’re headed isn’t a world where all you lose you get back and all you want you can have. I know some people were down on it but I like it as a song and from a thematic standpoint. Oddly, one of my favorite Roadhouse performances everytime I’ve watched the episode except the first time.


I remarked on this exact phenomenon on my recent rewatch. The songs often lead you to a new emotional place that feels intuitive, that changes or reveals the way you could be feeling at that point in the series. Wild West has a profound effect on me; it almost feels like an inexplicable catharsis, like some fog has suddenly been lifted after/despite the consistent confusion of the non-linear plotting and aggressive name-drops of new characters in the parts leading up to it, as well as the Sarah scene and the disorientation of the latest Roadhouse Randos conversation that directly precede it, in which you can viscerally feel something meaningful without actually comprehending what it is. Part of it may have to do with the way the lyrics describe the finale, but the overall vibe of the tune is forceful, triumphant, akin to having the answers and riding into battle. I also didn't like the song on first viewing, but it has become one of my favorite moments.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon May 25, 2020 9:02 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I've speculated that maybe Janey-E is a tulpa due to her naming, but I know it's a dangerous rabbit hole to start screaming "tulpa" at every character. I really wonder how Dougie ended up with her though. It seems like a big coincidence, unless Mr. C planned it for some reason. But if he did, it seems like a risk that Diane and Janey-E might mend fences and Diane would recognize Cooper, or a version of him. I guess it doesn't matter since this Diane is under his control, but it's all pretty strange.


I recently read somewhere that Diane shouldn't be trusted in this scene, and that the way she delivers the dialogue can be read as her simply saying what Mr. C told her to say. That she and Janey-E aren't even related. I don't know if I believe that, but it's certainly a possibility.


Andy sees:
-- Judy (from Part 1)
-- Judy vomiting Bob
-- The convenience store with Woodsmen
-- "Gotta light?"
-- Electrical wires crackling at night (I think this is from a Mr. C driving sequence in the next Part, IIRC)
-- Anguished girl running at Twin Peaks HS in Pilot after Laura's death
-- Red Room curtains, Laura flanked with angels superimposed (I forgot the angels had an appearance in TR! Not my favorite TP imagery, but good for Lorna MacMillan)
-- Naido naked just as Andy left her
-- Cooper and his Doppelgänger in the Red Room, their faces moving in and out of phase with each other
-- Lucy's phone with a blinking light
-- Andy guiding Lucy into place
-- Andy holding Naido's hand seconds earlier
-- The electric pole in Odessa

For the most part, this is straightforward-ish: he's given a cliff notes glimpse into the mythology/the evil we're facing, is shown Naido so he knows she's important and needs to be protected, and is shown what Lucy needs to do in Part 17. The focus on Laura is intriguing, though. Obviously there's a lot to be unwound with Laura in light of Part 8, and I'm not sure we've really begun to scratch the surface, but apparently there's something about her the Fireman thought Andy needed to know, between the crying girl, the angels shot, and even giving Andy a glimpse at the Odessaverse! I'm hoping I'll have more thoughts on it at some point. Right now I'm just opening up the floor to ideas, I guess.


I believe that the key to Andy's visions here is something that I don't see many people talk about: the color-coding has to mean something. In basic terms, it could be that the black and white imagery is stuff that is set in stone and can't be changed. The color imagery is stuff that is not set in stone and may be changed. If memory serves, the images occur in mostly linear order. The first images are in black and white. The black and white changes to color in the midst of the scene of the girl running across the courtyard, signalling that that is not set in stone and, as we know due to the events of Parts 17 & 18 and The Final Dossier, will indeed be changed, and occur at the pivot point for all changes. I find it interesting that in the vision, the phone ringing is in black and white - it definitely ends up happening - while Andy moving Lucy into place is in color - and that doesn't happen in that way as Lucy gets there on her own. Most scenes post-Laura are in color, including the Odessa-verse, signalling that they are malleable. I don't know what else can be gleaned from this theory of the color-coding, but it certainly fits with the theory of multiple timelines/parallel universes that you further outline in the quote below.


Returning again to my musings from the Part 13 thread: The idea of parallel universes continues to be toyed with in an abstract way, with the beautifully edited shot of multiple Franks, Hawks and Bobbys walking in and out of each other before each of them re-forms into a whole. This also calls to mind Lynch deliberately using the alternate take of the Jeffries scene. I think it also goes to a lot of what Mark was playing with in the books in terms of subjective reality. These slight divergences, where maybe there's some other universe where you said something a little differently or went to the opposite side of a room...and maybe for a second that universe intersects or overlaps with this one and you catch a glimpse of it, like Ed looking in the window.


I didn't think about the alternate take of the Jeffries scene. That's great! It ties a lot of ideas together on thematic, narrative and meta-levels.


Two other weird things about that scene: the bizarre focus on Megan not knowing whether or not her uncle was there. It reminds me of Chet’s line from FWWM: “What’s missing in that sentence? The uncle.” But I don’t think that’s what’s going on there. The other oddity is the ominous drone that starts when Megan says her mother’s name is Tina. I get that it ties into Part 12’s Audrey scene, but I’m not really sure what else we’re supposed to take from that reveal.


The UNCLES man. I also brought this up in my recent rewatch. The line from FWWM. Plus the honking lady in Part 11 saying something about how that girl's Uncle is waiting for them and hasn't seen them for years. And now a repetitive instance of blanking out when it comes to whether or not an Uncle was present. It has to be connected in some way, the focus on missing Uncles must mean something, but I have no idea what it means.

As far as the Tina ominous drone, I referred to it in my previous post as well. It is in that moment that Lynch is so totally in control and doing what he does best that the viewer has no fucking clue what is happening, and yet they comprehend it on some intuitive level that they nonetheless can't access. That pause, and then that drone...we feel exactly what's going on, and yet can't outwardly understand it, like Cooper at the Roadhouse as the giant appears onstage in episode 14. I've mentioned before that it might be revealing to attempt to link all the names dropped from Parts 12 thru 14 to already known characters that the names might correspond to, but I still haven't done that, or seen it done. Separately, what you mention about the instances of characters namedropping Billy being mostly Lynch's family is indeed interesting, and could have pointed toward it really being the reality-based Billy Zane. One of many possibilities, of course.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon May 25, 2020 9:18 pm

LateReg wrote:
bowisneski wrote:Man, Wild West sort of pumps me up with this hopeful feeling about where we’re headed everytime I rewatch, despite knowing where we’re headed isn’t a world where all you lose you get back and all you want you can have. I know some people were down on it but I like it as a song and from a thematic standpoint. Oddly, one of my favorite Roadhouse performances everytime I’ve watched the episode except the first time.


I remarked on this exact phenomenon on my recent rewatch. The songs often lead you to a new emotional place that feels intuitive, that changes or reveals the way you could be feeling at that point in the series. Wild West has a profound effect on me; it almost feels like an inexplicable catharsis, like some fog has suddenly been lifted after/despite the consistent confusion of the non-linear plotting and aggressive name-drops of new characters in the parts leading up to it, as well as the Sarah scene and the disorientation of the latest Roadhouse Randos conversation that directly precede it, in which you can viscerally feel something meaningful without actually comprehending what it is. Part of it may have to do with the way the lyrics describe the finale, but the overall vibe of the tune is forceful, triumphant, akin to having the answers and riding into battle. I also didn't like the song on first viewing, but it has become one of my favorite moments.


Thirded. Didn’t like it first time, one of my favorites ever since. I’m basically bouncing on the couch with excitement, it’s such a fun performance. Also love the line, “All that you lost you get back.” It resonates with many of the series themes about lost identity/missed opportunities that I’ve been thinking about, like a more optimistic version of “Out of Sand.”
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon May 25, 2020 10:07 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I've speculated that maybe Janey-E is a tulpa due to her naming, but I know it's a dangerous rabbit hole to start screaming "tulpa" at every character. I really wonder how Dougie ended up with her though. It seems like a big coincidence, unless Mr. C planned it for some reason. But if he did, it seems like a risk that Diane and Janey-E might mend fences and Diane would recognize Cooper, or a version of him. I guess it doesn't matter since this Diane is under his control, but it's all pretty strange.


I recently read somewhere that Diane shouldn't be trusted in this scene, and that the way she delivers the dialogue can be read as her simply saying what Mr. C told her to say. That she and Janey-E aren't even related. I don't know if I believe that, but it's certainly a possibility.


It’s possible. But I do really love the idea of those two as sisters. It feels so right. I sort of hate to let that idea go.


I believe that the key to Andy's visions here is something that I don't see many people talk about: the color-coding has to mean something. In basic terms, it could be that the black and white imagery is stuff that is set in stone and can't be changed. The color imagery is stuff that is not set in stone and may be changed. If memory serves, the images occur in mostly linear order. The first images are in black and white. The black and white changes to color in the midst of the scene of the girl running across the courtyard, signalling that that is not set in stone and, as we know due to the events of Parts 17 & 18 and The Final Dossier, will indeed be changed, and occur at the pivot point for all changes. I find it interesting that in the vision, the phone ringing is in black and white - it definitely ends up happening - while Andy moving Lucy into place is in color - and that doesn't happen in that way as Lucy gets there on her own. Most scenes post-Laura are in color, including the Odessa-verse, signalling that they are malleable. I don't know what else can be gleaned from this theory of the color-coding, but it certainly fits with the theory of multiple timelines/parallel universes that you further outline in the quote below.


I love this, and I think you may be absolutely right. I made note of the switches from B&W to color, but didn’t think it through. Wow, thanks for that!

The idea of Billy as Billy Zane always intrigues me, but I can’t really believe that’s where Lynch’s head was, especially given his feelings about later S2. Where do people come down on Jay Aaseng’s “Drunk” being Billy? It’s certainly not a coincidence that DKL introduces him in this Part, a few minutes before the scene where Megan talks about Billy bleeding from the mouth.

I keep thinking about Sarah. I firmly believe that, mythology being all well and good, all the “inhabiting spirits” elements of the series need to also fulfill a character-based psychological purpose. Clearly, Sarah in TR is feeling an embittered, angry, abandoned emotion, which feeds whatever the thing is inside her (the first image we see when she removes her face is clearly Judy, but I’m still not fully convinced it’s as straightforward as Judy inhabiting Sarah). Sarah is clearly fighting this impulse to do harm, isolating in her home, self-medicating and numbing with alcohol. She’s finally forced outside when she runs out of alcohol late at night with no stores open. It’s telling that what finally triggers her to release all her hateful feelings, to take them out on someone else, is the approach of toxic masculinity—which is the root cause of her personal tragedy, in the form of Leland/Bob. She begs the trucker to back down, but he won’t, and she snaps and gives in. Also note that when Sarah removes her face, it almost looks like Judy is aggressively spitting streams of semen at the trucker. (Maybe I’m stretching, but take a look at the scene...then watch Eraserhead to remember what type of filmmaker we’re dealing with, and get back to me.) Perhaps the perfect circle of the Bob/Judy pairing is that he inhabits men and victimizes women in various ways, and Judy feeds off the rage and suffering of the female victims he leaves behind?
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby AXX°N N. » Tue May 26, 2020 9:06 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Some of the Parts blend together for me a little bit, but this one sticks in my head so vividly in its entirety. It's partly because I first watched it under unique and very aggravating circumstances (in the lobby of a Puerto Rico hotel on my laptop with absolutely terrible Internet service, so it kept freezing), so that experience is seared in my mind, and I can clearly recall watching every scene for the first time in that lobby, and what my visceral reactions were. All that baggage aside, however, it's really a terrific Part from start to finish, one of my favorites.

That's so funny, because this episode in particular is seared in my brain too, but for the exact opposite reason. Up until Part 14, I had been in a small town with HORRENDOUS cable and internet service, to the point I was switching between cable and streaming platforms hoping for any slight improvement; I didn't have TV before S3, so I hadn't ironed anything out re logistics of how to get it stable, and turns out there was no way. I spent most of the series as it premiered apprehensive an episode would freeze, crash, just not start at all. Then I had a big move to a different city between Part 13 & 14, and contrary to your experience, it was the first time a Part played perfect and smooth. :lol: Incidentally, hurricane Harvey started walloping my town a day before Part 15, and there were outages as that was raging all the way until the end. Part 14 was my only smooth experience! And the Wild West performance, for the reasons already discussed by you and LateReg, especially filled me with feelings of forward momentum and things powerfully coming together. At least for one night!

Mr. Reindeer wrote:For the most part, this is straightforward-ish: he's given a cliff notes glimpse into the mythology/the evil we're facing, is shown Naido so he knows she's important and needs to be protected, and is shown what Lucy needs to do in Part 17. The focus on Laura is intriguing, though. Obviously there's a lot to be unwound with Laura in light of Part 8, and I'm not sure we've really begun to scratch the surface, but apparently there's something about her the Fireman thought Andy needed to know, between the crying girl, the angels shot, and even giving Andy a glimpse at the Odessaverse! I'm hoping I'll have more thoughts on it at some point. Right now I'm just opening up the floor to ideas, I guess.

I've actually never found it straightforward. How is Andy to know that Naido must be protected, and isn't an evil entity to run the hell away from? It leads me to believe that Andy's extrapolation in his conscious mind, or his memory of what he sees there, is much diferent from the reality of the encounter which we see as a viewer. The discrepency with Freddy's story, which is very straightforward and even has dialogue on the Fireman's part, seems especially intended to be contrasted, what with it being in the same episode. Perhaps what Andy recalls is just as expository as Freddy, or rather, that Freddy was shown a vision just as obscure and visual, but intuited, and later recalled, what meaning it was he gleaned.

Then again, the Fireman overtly talks to Dale in the establishing scene of S3, but there's ambiguity, as you've noted, as to if that's direct information or a reference to direct information. A lot of Cooper's experiences in the Red Room, and paralleled with his slow appraisal of Vegas as Dougie, leads me to feel as if he's constantly reading information into everything he comes into contact with, the world as symbol. There's little difference between the apprehension of Dougie at the casino and how surreal the environment is compared to Cooper's slow wary trek through what the Red Room has to offer in terms of bright lights and strange behavior.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Watching that Sarah scene for the first time in a common area of a hotel was also a really weird experience. She’s always been one of my favorite characters, and her short appearances in TR up to this point made her even moreso. I thought I understood her, and when she takes a bite out of that guy’s neck, it was like watching a friend you thought you knew murder someone in front of you. I felt so betrayed and conflicted, and exposed because I was having this reaction with people all around me. Even under those weird circumstances, I loved what I was seeing, though, and felt the rightness of it. I think I spent the next day feeling weirdly tarnished and confused, almost in a daze, trying to process how I felt about that twist. Like how you feel after waking up from a really strange visceral dream.

I felt and still feel the same way. Exposed and tarnished are exactly the right words. It feels wrong, but right that it feels wrong.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Two other weird things about that scene: the bizarre focus on Megan not knowing whether or not her uncle was there. It reminds me of Chet’s line from FWWM: “What’s missing in that sentence? The uncle.” But I don’t think that’s what’s going on there. The other oddity is the ominous drone that starts when Megan says her mother’s name is Tina. I get that it ties into Part 12’s Audrey scene, but I’m not really sure what else we’re supposed to take from that reveal.

Like LateReg describes, that scene has always filled me with the sense of loaded, almost terrible meaning. As to what it is, though...

I think, perhaps, it's supposed to bring into question, in a single moment, the trustworthiness of not only Audrey's reality but the reality of the bar, or even the trust the audience can have in these characters being real, and not just some odd or obscure proxies (as LateReg has suggested). Mostly because of the performance, of the way the actress recalls these weird lapses in memory (or reality), it reminds me of the scene with Nastasjja Kinski that was cut in IE, where she's describing a hotel room where the hallway when she exits is suddenly not the same hallway from when she last entered ... which also makes me think of how Coop enters the motel in P18, only to wake up in a different room, in a different motel, with a different car.

--

As for the talk of Janey-E being a tulpa or not, I've had the suspicion before that by 'sister,' Diane might actually be referring to a relation, but not exactly an actual blood one, Janey-E being perhaps crafted. There's certainly an artificiality to the Jones household outside of just Douglas, and it's hard to reckon with the supposed happy ending of Dougie's reuniting with them being a happy one if it's a real human woman paired off with a manufactured being--really, there's only thematic resonance (imo) if this is looked at in terms of metaphor. It's the happy ending as realized by the outward projections of the idealized parts of Cooper and Diane--happy, yes, but manufactured (as perhaps all happiness must be), and a little like a living dream.
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Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby AXX°N N. » Tue May 26, 2020 9:09 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Also note that when Sarah removes her face, it almost looks like Judy is aggressively spitting streams of semen at the trucker. (Maybe I’m stretching, but take a look at the scene...then watch Eraserhead to remember what type of filmmaker we’re dealing with, and get back to me.)

I always took this as another instance of the Experiment sporting a freeze-frame proboscis. There certainly is something sexual about the imagery though--the elongated and blackened spiritual mound finger within the cavern of Sarah's face (what a sentence!) seems positively phallic in shape.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Henrys Hair » Tue May 26, 2020 10:00 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:That scene of Gordon talking to Lucy still gets a gut reaction from me of pure joy. We've gone so many Parts with Twin Peaks seeming completely cut off from Cooper's storyline, the FBI storyline, etc., despite so much that happens in those storylines revolving around the town. That withholding of any outside character having contact with the town for 13 Parts makes this opening scene so effective and wonderful. When I first watched it, I couldn't BELIEVE that bam, right out of the gate, we have Gordon calling the sheriff's department! I immediately flash back to him standing in front of Lucy's desk in Episode 14, eating donuts with the One-Armed Man.


Much like the Shelly/James Roadhouse scene, this also made me wonder if Gordon Cole and Lucy share any screen time in the original. I'd need to re-watch the first 2 seasons again, but I have a feeling they don't - I think even the donut eating scene takes place while Lucy's out of town.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue May 26, 2020 10:11 am

AXX°N N. wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:For the most part, this is straightforward-ish: he's given a cliff notes glimpse into the mythology/the evil we're facing, is shown Naido so he knows she's important and needs to be protected, and is shown what Lucy needs to do in Part 17. The focus on Laura is intriguing, though. Obviously there's a lot to be unwound with Laura in light of Part 8, and I'm not sure we've really begun to scratch the surface, but apparently there's something about her the Fireman thought Andy needed to know, between the crying girl, the angels shot, and even giving Andy a glimpse at the Odessaverse! I'm hoping I'll have more thoughts on it at some point. Right now I'm just opening up the floor to ideas, I guess.

I've actually never found it straightforward. How is Andy to know that Naido must be protected, and isn't an evil entity to run the hell away from? It leads me to believe that Andy's extrapolation in his conscious mind, or his memory of what he sees there, is much diferent from the reality of the encounter which we see as a viewer. The discrepency with Freddy's story, which is very straightforward and even has dialogue on the Fireman's part, seems especially intended to be contrasted, what with it being in the same episode. Perhaps what Andy recalls is just as expository as Freddy, or rather, that Freddy was shown a vision just as obscure and visual, but intuited, and later recalled, what meaning it was he gleaned.


Yeah, my reading of it is that Andy is basically having information beamed into his head. The projected screen is sort of a visual shorthand for the viewer, but Andy is receiving all the information we know those images symbolize. As to Naido, I think there’s something about her context in sequencing of images that allows Andy to intuit that she’s a positive force and needs to be protected. I think this is part of why she had to be naked, so that he would intuitively view her as vulnerable. And the shot the Fireman shows of Andy holding her hand also demonstrates that Andy is on the right track by following his initial instinct of wanting to help and support her.


Mr. Reindeer wrote:Two other weird things about that scene: the bizarre focus on Megan not knowing whether or not her uncle was there. It reminds me of Chet’s line from FWWM: “What’s missing in that sentence? The uncle.” But I don’t think that’s what’s going on there. The other oddity is the ominous drone that starts when Megan says her mother’s name is Tina. I get that it ties into Part 12’s Audrey scene, but I’m not really sure what else we’re supposed to take from that reveal.

Like LateReg describes, that scene has always filled me with the sense of loaded, almost terrible meaning. As to what it is, though...

I think, perhaps, it's supposed to bring into question, in a single moment, the trustworthiness of not only Audrey's reality but the reality of the bar, or even the trust the audience can have in these characters being real, and not just some odd or obscure proxies (as LateReg has suggested). Mostly because of the performance, of the way the actress recalls these weird lapses in memory (or reality), it reminds me of the scene with Nastasjja Kinski that was cut in IE, where she's describing a hotel room where the hallway when she exits is suddenly not the same hallway from when she last entered ... which also makes me think of how Coop enters the motel in P18, only to wake up in a different room, in a different motel, with a different car.


I can see that. But on its face, Megan saying the name “Tina” seems to VALIDATE the Audrey scenes as being in reality! Whereas we were all questioning where Audrey was in those scenes, suddenly these seemingly random townies are talking about the same people as she was. It almost seems like this moment should play as a relief to realize that maybe Audrey ISN’T trapped in some strange pocket universe, but Lynch plays it as the complete opposite. It makes for a wonderfully unsettling effect, but I’m not sure what exactly to read into it, other than Lynch playing against expectations and creating mood.


As for the talk of Janey-E being a tulpa or not, I've had the suspicion before that by 'sister,' Diane might actually be referring to a relation, but not exactly an actual blood one, Janey-E being perhaps crafted. There's certainly an artificiality to the Jones household outside of just Douglas, and it's hard to reckon with the supposed happy ending of Dougie's reuniting with them being a happy one if it's a real human woman paired off with a manufactured being--really, there's only thematic resonance (imo) if this is looked at in terms of metaphor. It's the happy ending as realized by the outward projections of the idealized parts of Cooper and Diane--happy, yes, but manufactured (as perhaps all happiness must be), and a little like a living dream.


Again, I just can’t let go of the idea of those two actually growing up together and having a ‘Whatever Happened to Baby Jane’-style epic sibling rivalry. It’s the spinoff I need.

I view the “Dougie” Janey-E gets at the end as containing Dale’s best traits that he gave up—so they’re literally getting the best part of him. I see where you’re coming from, it’s a little weird, but the only husband/father they’ve ever known was a tulpa, and they’re heartbroken when he leaves. Dougie Mark 1 seems like a real shit-head, but they still loved him. Dougie Mark 2 was a lovable blank slate and they both seemed really happy with him. I think this will be by far the kindest and best one yet. I think it would be sadder for them to be left alone. Anyway, that whole Vegas reality is pretty bizarre. Who’s to judge. ;)

IE ends with Smithy and Lost Girl reuniting, along with the unnamed “Smithy’s Son,” who I’m pretty sure is manufactured. So there’s precedent for that type of “happy” ending in Lynch’s work. (Not to go too far afield, but I also always wonder about Jack’s flash-sideways son in season 6 of Lost and what happened to that poor kid when everyone moved on.)

In any event, I agree with you in that I am leaning toward Janey-E being a tulpa at the moment, so I’m just playing devil’s advocate here.

AXX°N N. wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:Also note that when Sarah removes her face, it almost looks like Judy is aggressively spitting streams of semen at the trucker. (Maybe I’m stretching, but take a look at the scene...then watch Eraserhead to remember what type of filmmaker we’re dealing with, and get back to me.)

I always took this as another instance of the Experiment sporting a freeze-frame proboscis. There certainly is something sexual about the imagery though--the elongated and blackened spiritual mound finger within the cavern of Sarah's face (what a sentence!) seems positively phallic in shape.


Oh yeah, how did I forget about that! I freeze framed that scene when the Blu Rays came out.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue May 26, 2020 10:20 pm

One thing I forgot to mention, while we’re all gushing over Lissie: I believe this is the only Part where the closing song is allowed to continue its final fading chord over the L/F Productions vanity card.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby AXX°N N. » Wed May 27, 2020 2:20 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Yeah, my reading of it is that Andy is basically having information beamed into his head. The projected screen is sort of a visual shorthand for the viewer, but Andy is receiving all the information we know those images symbolize. As to Naido, I think there’s something about her context in sequencing of images that allows Andy to intuit that she’s a positive force and needs to be protected. I think this is part of why she had to be naked, so that he would intuitively view her as vulnerable. And the shot the Fireman shows of Andy holding her hand also demonstrates that Andy is on the right track by following his initial instinct of wanting to help and support her.

Thanks for that, that totally checks out for me on an intuitive level.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I can see that. But on its face, Megan saying the name “Tina” seems to VALIDATE the Audrey scenes as being in reality! Whereas we were all questioning where Audrey was in those scenes, suddenly these seemingly random townies are talking about the same people as she was. It almost seems like this moment should play as a relief to realize that maybe Audrey ISN’T trapped in some strange pocket universe, but Lynch plays it as the complete opposite. It makes for a wonderfully unsettling effect, but I’m not sure what exactly to read into it, other than Lynch playing against expectations and creating mood.

I guess my thinking is that because Audrey's scenes have felt so heightened, strange and removed from reality, to have a bridging point causes a kind of shock, wherein suddenly the reality of the bar gets swept into the strangeness. Or looked at in another way, the fact that this bridging point is treated with ominous atmosphere and a kind of loose grip on reality and memory by the bar character, that also in an instant overlaps with Audrey's already surreal space.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I view the “Dougie” Janey-E gets at the end as containing Dale’s best traits that he gave up—so they’re literally getting the best part of him. I see where you’re coming from, it’s a little weird, but the only husband/father they’ve ever known was a tulpa, and they’re heartbroken when he leaves. Dougie Mark 1 seems like a real shit-head, but they still loved him. Dougie Mark 2 was a lovable blank slate and they both seemed really happy with him. I think this will be by far the kindest and best one yet. I think it would be sadder for them to be left alone. Anyway, that whole Vegas reality is pretty bizarre. Who’s to judge. ;)

IE ends with Smithy and Lost Girl reuniting, along with the unnamed “Smithy’s Son,” who I’m pretty sure is manufactured. So there’s precedent for that type of “happy” ending in Lynch’s work. (Not to go too far afield, but I also always wonder about Jack’s flash-sideways son in season 6 of Lost and what happened to that poor kid when everyone moved on.)


I've had my trouble with the happy ending, but I think in a strange way it's saying something about humans in the way that great sci-fi has in tales of androids. What exactly is there about being organically human which makes it more meaningful than a created thing, anyway, if anything?

Great comparison to IE! They're totally the same thing. I've had trouble before reconciling how oddly artificial that felt as well, and I also think it's trying to say something about the nature of happiness, which is to say I don't think it's pessimistic or anything, it's just presenting happiness as a (good) fabrication. (And to also get too far off-topic, my reading of Jack's son was always that it was a projection/part of Jack. They share such incredibly similar body language that it reads less as father/son and more as literal mirroring. Although the autonomy/reality of the flash-sideways characters who are not 815 passengers was extremely weird and up in the air in general.)
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.

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