Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

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Stavrogyn
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Stavrogyn »

I just have to join the discussion about the superhero films and Twin Peaks being mostly admired by artists.

Like LateReg said, I also watch everything. I used to look at the MCU with contempt, until I finally gave it a shot - mostly because my girlfriend wanted to see Thor: Ragnarok, and because my best friend had been accusing me for years of being a film snob and elitist. Now, a few years later, I can admit of having watched all of the MCU, and very much looking forward to the upcoming films and series. Yes, it is not quite Tarkovsky, Bergman, Lynch, von Trier etc., etc., but as LateReg said, it is its own thing - and I personally can find amusement and joy in them, and even some things to make me feel and think.

Then again, I'm a fan of arthouse cinema, classics etc., so the MCU makes up for only a small portion of the things I watch. I also could not care less what the masses watch. I would love for the people like David Lynch, Jim Jarmusch, David Cronenberg, John Waters and others to get as much money for making their films as they wish, but in terms of caring what the general masses prefer and actually watch, I don't really care.

What could maybe be considered ironic is that the only film I'm planning to see in the theaters in the upcoming months is Black Widow (the latest entry in the MCU franchise), but that is precisely because I feel that that kind of film is best seen on a big screen with great sound and other technical aspects. It is also the type of film to be seen in company, with friends, so that is why the theater will be the best place to see it.

Generally, however, I consider film as an art form to be as intimate medium as literature - films are meant to be seen in private, all by yourself. That is why the things I really care about I watch alone, at home, with no distractions. Where I live we have two great theaters that mostly play classics and art films, but I rarely go, because why would I when all of that I could easily watch at home, alone, and... well... for free.

mtwentz, the thing you said about mostly artists loving Twin Peaks... Well, I am the only Twin Peaks fanatic in my circle that I know of, and I'm a writer, so there seems to be something to it! :D I also have a friend who is writing poetry and who recently finished the original series, and was blown away by it, so I'm eagerly awaiting his reactions to Fire Walk with Me and The Return! But I also know a few people who enjoyed the entirety of Twin Peaks, and have no artistic aspirations whatsoever.

And about the writing process in general: people are different, so to each their own. I, for one, would never try to write on a daily basis. It just doesn't feel right to me. (But I have heard such theories a few times, and admit they may work for other people.) I tend to work on a novel for years, and take big breaks between writing sessions. For example, I haven't been working on my new novel since March 11, and I won't be until September or October. It is partially because I don't have too much to say, and everything I write has to be very important to me - I plan to publish circa 5 novels in my lifetime - and partially because I believe that big gaps between writing sessions help you put your work into perspective after some time has passed and you have grown as a person - and we do grow almost on a daily basis.

Finally, mtwentz, if you have the desire, I encourage you to write. Just start and who knows where it might take you! :D

Jonah, do not be discouraged, and don't give up! These things take time. I have found the publisher for my first novel and published it relatively easily - I just had to borrow money to pay for the publishing myself - but after that, it has been mostly disappointment. I did not even get bad reviews, I just experienced a general lack of critical reaction to my book, almost as if it never existed. But that won't stop me from publishing the second one in two or three years :wink:
Last edited by Stavrogyn on Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonah
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Stavrogyn wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:55 am Jonah, do not be discouraged, and don't give up! These things take time. I have found the publisher for my first novel and published it relatively easily - I just had to borrow money to pay for the publishing myself - but after that, it has been mostly disappointment. I did not even get bad reviews, I just experienced a general lack of critical reaction to my book, almost as if it never existed. But that won't stop me from publishing the second one it two or three years :wink:
Thanks for the encouraging words. I would have to advise you against using publishers you pay in the future, though. They're known as vanity publishers. They do work for some people, of course, but similar services exist that do it for free - Lulu, Amazon CreateSpace. There's also a lot of small publishers who might take you on. The general rule is the publisher should pay you, not the other way around. But it depends what you want of course. I self-published some titles when I was younger and used Lulu and Amazon, also helped others self-publish their books that way. Right now I'm holding out for a larger publisher which is why it's taken so long. Had options to self-publish or publish with smaller publishers, but I'm holding out for a big one. Nothing against self-publishng - it works astonishingly well for some people, but in general I found books just sat there as you said with no movement or marketing. So now I figure I might as well hold out for bigger - I'm this many years into this series now. It depends what you want really. Some people just want to see their books published. I'm willing to wait until I get a big deal. Ha, I wrote until I get, usually I say if I get - so maybe I'm starting to feel more confident again.

But yeah, if you'd like any info about services you can use to self-publish or even small presses you could submit to, PM me and I can try to help. Or Google, check AbsoluteWrite forum, QueryTracker, r/writing and r/PubTIps on Reddit. Good luck! Good luck to us both!
Stavrogyn wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:55 am Finally, mtwentz, if you have the desire, I encourage you to write. Just start and who knows where it might take you! :D
I agree. It can be hard to carve out the time - especially with the internet and movies eating into so many of everyone's free time now (I should be writing now instead of on dugpa!) - but if you can find the time, and if you get really into it, it can be very rewarding - but also frustrating and difficult, it's a mixed bag, though it depends how you approach it. I wrote two novels when I was a teenager and back then I just wrote for enjoyment and entertainment, not trying to land an agent or a publisher or make a living. I'd like to try to get back to that approach - or even trick myself back into it. Of course, back then I didn't have the internet, only VHS tapes and books, no streaming services, email, constant distractions - and I was younger so no responsibilities either. Writing got harder to manage once I hit my 20's and beyond. I can see why some people wait for retirement. But it's worth trying. We're all usually our own worst critics when it comes to writing or any kind of creation, but you can learn to ignore that inner voice somewhat and trudge on. Even established, successful writers experience doubt, writer's block, long periods of inactivity - and then some produce more work than I can even imagine. Two good popular examples of different productivity levels might be Stephen King (constantly producing) and George RR Martin (blocked or struggling to finish a book for years) - both have reached a similar level of success and fame, but have very different outputs.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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mtwentz wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:19 am Can I take a moment here for us all to recognize Richard Donner, who just passed away?

Donner is the father of the superhero blockbuster. And his formula was you had to make the effects believable ("you will believe a man can fly") but also his superhero film was NOT an action film; it was a love story. He always corrected people when they called Superman a comic book film, to him, it was always a love story first and action/adventure film second.
I think the best contemporary superhero film is Spider-Man 2, and a big part of it's success is that it too is primarily a romance film.

As for the MCU, I also watched all of it up to Endgame. After saying this many times and always going back on my word, I think I'm finally done. To me it's cinematic junk food. The films are too similar to each other and the formula is too rigid. There are no surprises anymore and nothing that moves me. The films take no risks, naturally, since they are primarily a corporate branding exercise. I used to keep up with them because I wanted to keep up with where film as an art form is and take part in 'the conversation', but there are too much other genuinely mentally stimulating films, let alone any other forms of art, to continue to spend my remaining life on them.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Of the 4 recent ones I watched I checked and 3 are DC, only 1 is marvel. Are DC considered as "bad" as the rest - are they all part of the same superhero movies people here have been discussing, or are there different levels of them with the marvel ones considered worse?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Jonah wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:44 am Of the 4 recent ones I watched I checked and 3 are DC, only 1 is marvel. Are DC considered as "bad" as the rest - are they all part of the same superhero movies people here have been discussing, or are there different levels of them with the marvel ones considered worse?
Generally, DC are much less successful than Marvel.
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Jonah
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Jonah »

Quality wise, are they considered the same/better, etc? This conversation seems to have mainly only mentioned marvel movies and general superhero movies, so just wondering if there's a distinction in quality, or if they're all considered pretty much the same?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
Cde.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Cde. »

I think the DC films are a mixed bag. Not many of them are that good to me, but at least they provide an alternative to the Marvel formula.
To my great surprise I loved Zack Snyder's Justice League. I felt like the seriousness with which it took itself was refreshing and it was filled with stunningly composed images and sequences. It definitely took risks in terms of structure and pacing too.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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baxter wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:53 pm Fair enough LateReg, it's more complicated than I gave it credit for. I'm left wondering how you find the time to watch everything, and also how you derive entertainment value from so many repetitive super hero films. I've tried to expand out from my Batman viewing, but I always find I'm getting bored compared to the endless things I could be watching. For some reason, Batman slips through this, because I connected with it as a youth.

I suspect I'll watch everything once my kids are a bit older though - they aren't quite the right age yet, but I'm looking forward to family movie nights. I've already shown them bits of The Prisoner though :-D
Thanks for the reply. I'm definitely not deriving that much entertainment value from it at this point. I want to abandon it, I constantly rebel against it, but it's such a large part of the landscape, and I have a few friends who are really into it, so I continue to keep up with it all to be part of the conversation (and perhaps vindictively use it as a form of currency to trade in to try to get them to watch more of what I want). In fact, just to get it out of the way, I have been waking up an hour earlier than usual to watch the latest Marvel series on Disney Plus on the day they air. Like I said...just to get it out of the way! But I very much try to keep an open mind and enjoy it all, and I do to some degree and on some level. I just find myself increasingly frustrated at the lack of advancement and risk within the formula, and that many fans don't seem to mind.

As far as how I have the time...I do very little else, and, especially lately, sleep very little. I always have some personal project going that keeps me interested and moving through filmographies, genres, marathons, etc. But the marathon aspect is interesting, especially in light of all these superhero films and cinematic universes...because it used to be you could spend a free day revisiting a franchise before a new installment was coming out. But now, it might take you weeks to revisit some of these monstrous sagas. So, that repeat-viewing aspect of my schedule has become much more difficult to maintain over time, and speaks to the way that moviemaking has changed.

By the way, just last week I had also just purchased an out of print copy of The Prisoner on Blu-ray to revisit at some point! I'm in the process of curbing my spending, but I sought that out as an essential to my physical collection.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Cde. wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:54 am I think the best contemporary superhero film is Spider-Man 2, and a big part of it's success is that it too is primarily a romance film.

As for the MCU, I also watched all of it up to Endgame. After saying this many times and always going back on my word, I think I'm finally done. To me it's cinematic junk food. The films are too similar to each other and the formula is too rigid. There are no surprises anymore and nothing that moves me. The films take no risks, naturally, since they are primarily a corporate branding exercise. I used to keep up with them because I wanted to keep up with where film as an art form is and take part in 'the conversation', but there are too much other genuinely mentally stimulating films, let alone any other forms of art, to continue to spend my remaining life on them.
I echo these sentiments almost exactly. I'm a huge fan of Spider-man 2. The filmmaking itself is so expressive especially compared to a lot of today's digitized blockbusters. It's a more emotional, organic experience, the comedy and action and narrative all blended more seamlessly together.

And your feelings on the MCU sum up my own exactly, from the rigidity of the formula to the corporate exercise to the "conversation"...but I'm still truckin' as of now for reasons outlined in my previous post.

And yes, what I like about the DC films is that they were initially more or less, comparatively, director-controlled. That director happened to be Zack Snyder, and so for some that's not a good thing, but at least he has a purely personal vision and big ambition. But soon, Warner got cold feet and attempted to Marvel-ize their formula, cutting films apart and adding more humor. I think that the studio is once again allowing a bit more personal vision and grit at this point, though, as I think they/their audience just didn't end up gelling with Snyder's vision for their big baby. But, I'm a fan of Snyder. I think all of his films are flawed, but I admire the vision and the ideas.

To answer Jonah's question, the DC films are not as uniformly well-received as the Marvel ones. Marvel has incredible quality control...to a fault. But I think that the DC films, especially Snyder's, give you a bit/lot more to chew on. Like Cde., I liked Snyder's Justice League and the seriousness with which he treats the characters and mythology. I think there's some occasional value to Whedon's breezy cut of Justice League, but to watch that and then check out Snyder's intended version and see some of the more beautiful, serious passages that were shorn or altogether altered for commercial purposes is eye-opening. It's still a hugely flawed film, but its great that it exists.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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DougieJones wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:01 am Because of all this superhero talk I’m curious to hear everyone’s opinions on the Marvel-satire fight scene between BOB and Freddie with the glove. It really felt like a popcorn blockbuster movie moment and I’m sure it was done purposely like that.
This scene wasn’t a favorite of mine. Nothing against super hero movies, just not really into them that much. I had to ask a coworker who’s 20 years younger than me who Loki is because I’m not up to date with all the movies and characters, even though I’m sure there are some good ones out there.

I think of all the scenes that puzzled me in The Return, this is the scene I have contemplated the least in terms of interpreting what I think it might mean, even if it’s supposed to mean anything. I’ve felt like maybe there’s some meta commentary going on that is going over my head or the absurdity of it is supposed to underscore that what we’re watching isn’t real since we get the “we live inside a dream” voice over and Coop’s face in the lodge later in the scene.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Hester Prynne wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:42 am
DougieJones wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:01 am Because of all this superhero talk I’m curious to hear everyone’s opinions on the Marvel-satire fight scene between BOB and Freddie with the glove. It really felt like a popcorn blockbuster movie moment and I’m sure it was done purposely like that.
This scene wasn’t a favorite of mine. Nothing against super hero movies, just not really into them that much. I had to ask a coworker who’s 20 years younger than me who Loki is because I’m not up to date with all the movies and characters, even though I’m sure there are some good ones out there.

I think of all the scenes that puzzled me in The Return, this is the scene I have contemplated the least in terms of interpreting what I think it might mean, even if it’s supposed to mean anything. I’ve felt like maybe there’s some meta commentary going on that is going over my head or the absurdity of it is supposed to underscore that what we’re watching isn’t real since we get the “we live inside a dream” voice over and Coop’s face in the lodge later in the scene.
I don't think it means all that much, but if you can get past the green glove, the visual and sound effects are damn freaky, making it one of my favorite scenes (of many favorites).
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Remember all the worry about Frost un-following Lynch on Twitter? Get this:

"Marvel fans are up in arms after Robert Downey Jr. did the unthinkable and suddenly unfollowed his fellow Avengers costars on Instagram."
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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mtwentz wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:45 am
Hester Prynne wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:42 am
DougieJones wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:01 am Because of all this superhero talk I’m curious to hear everyone’s opinions on the Marvel-satire fight scene between BOB and Freddie with the glove. It really felt like a popcorn blockbuster movie moment and I’m sure it was done purposely like that.
This scene wasn’t a favorite of mine. Nothing against super hero movies, just not really into them that much. I had to ask a coworker who’s 20 years younger than me who Loki is because I’m not up to date with all the movies and characters, even though I’m sure there are some good ones out there.

I think of all the scenes that puzzled me in The Return, this is the scene I have contemplated the least in terms of interpreting what I think it might mean, even if it’s supposed to mean anything. I’ve felt like maybe there’s some meta commentary going on that is going over my head or the absurdity of it is supposed to underscore that what we’re watching isn’t real since we get the “we live inside a dream” voice over and Coop’s face in the lodge later in the scene.
I don't think it means all that much, but if you can get past the green glove, the visual and sound effects are damn freaky, making it one of my favorite scenes (of many favorites).
It is probably the most puzzling scene in all of The Return. And, coming at the climax, you have to ask yourself, why? While some enjoy taking it at face value and others despise it at the same level, there are numerous layers at play, and I think there's a lot to it.

There's the toying with storytelling, subversion, and deus ex machine, and the very idea of neat and tidy endings. There's a possible spoof of comic book movies that always end with a superpowered fist-fight. There's the parody of the idea in movies or reality that evil can somehow be extinguished, and the utter absurdity of the scene underscores the ridiculousness and impossibility of that notion. Perhaps most importantly, there's Cooper once again not coming face to face with himself, instead relying on Lucy and Green Gloves' intervention. And probably a few more thematic or narrative interpretations that I'm forgetting, such as the possible "it's not real" signifier. I find the sequence hugely complex, producing a bittersweet range of emotions. As part of the hero's journey, you have to ask yourself whether anything was really accomplished?

But to echo mtwentz...I've said this before, but I believe that that scene, while difficult to embrace on strictly narrative terms as an ending to BOB, is in and of itself one of the best scenes in The Return. It's quite a display of layered sound and image, and quite viscerally intense as well, for me anyway.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I was scrolling through the profile of the person who made the now deleted r/ TwinPeaks post that said they were working on another season after meeting the production assistant for The Return. They upload pictures of themselves and it’s a very personal account. I don’t think someone would make that story up to post on their personal account to be honest. I mean their profile is named after Mulholland Drive so I really don’t know.

The visuals in the BOB fight scene are so well done and the technical aspect of that scene makes it one of my favorites of The Return.
Last edited by DougieJones on Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Metamorphia »

Was the green glove scene the one Lynch was complaining about feeling rushed over and having "zero ideas" about how to shoot in that BTS footage?

I suppose there's an inherent allusion towards the stylings of comic books with the glove but I'm generally wary about reading too much into The Return as a cultural pastiche/commentary (I don't think that scene's intended as an actual satire of Marvel or the way modern cinema resolves itself) - although it is obviously a very self conscious example of an absurd deus ex machina.
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