Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

[madeleineferguson]

But Maddy, wouldn't you also be a little heartbroke to have TP without Frost? I know I would.

Hey Soolsma! I would be disappointed if Frost were not involved, but only for a moment. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I kind of soured on Frost after his two recent Twin Peaks books. I felt a disconnect between those books and the actual series, which seems like a disconnect between he and Lynch. I feel like Frost really wanted to write about Nixon and little green men and other nonsense, and used Twin Peaks to gain an audience. Don't get me wrong... some of the content in those books is good, and appreciated. But standing on the other side of Season 3, much of what he wrote about had little relation to the actual series. And from what I can tell, Lynch had absolutely no idea or concern what Frost wrote, or how it fit into his vision of Twin Peaks.

[madeleineferguson]

Is anybody here a long time watcher of David's "number" video's on YouTube? I have to admit I'm not. Today's ending features a red curtain. All the other ones I can see end with black space.

Today's number is 8 by the way.

I'm totally reaching here, but I think the number 8 was the intended digit to be pulled today, and it's a clue that Season 4 will be set in 1945 or 1956, like Episode 8 of The Return.

[krishnanspace]

David’s smile when he was talking about the Apple yesterday

[JackwithOneEye]

But Maddy, wouldn't you also be a little heartbroke to have TP without Frost? I know I would.

Hey Soolsma! I would be disappointed if Frost were not involved, but only for a moment. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I kind of soured on Frost after his two recent Twin Peaks books. I felt a disconnect between those books and the actual series, which seems like a disconnect between he and Lynch. I feel like Frost really wanted to write about Nixon and little green men and other nonsense, and used Twin Peaks to gain an audience. Don't get me wrong... some of the content in those books is good, and appreciated. But standing on the other side of Season 3, much of what he wrote about had little relation to the actual series. And from what I can tell, Lynch had absolutely no idea or concern what Frost wrote, or how it fit into his vision of Twin Peaks.

I agree with this for sure. the second book has shoe horny explanations I 'm not sure Lynch would see as 'his Twin Peaks'. the frogmoth sequence I still see as a Lynch abstraction about violation/rape, and isn't neccesarily literally Sarah Palmer. the Audrey stuff in the book... not sure Lynch would see it all as her dream world in a mental hospital, but that is the most literal thing you can interpret from the white room she awakens in. I also wonder to what extent Leland killing himself or however it's described by Frost in the book as how Lynch would see what has happened in an alternate timeline. Lynch once was at an event around 2013 and he said to Ray Wise "the town is still there. you're dead, but maybe we can work around that"... so I sorta feel like in alternative universe where Laura wasn't killed, and just disappeared, maybe that wound be a launching pad for a world where Leland is still around somewhere grieving and looking for the lost Laura.

[LateReg]

This is in no way meant to be argumentative regarding Frost's importance. His importance to Twin Peaks isn't up for debate, and no one is saying it is. But a few pages back I felt I wanted to point out one thing in Lynch's defense, and now I want to point out another in Frost's.

In Frost's defense, I think that while some things in those books are very literal explorations, I think they are also an integral part of the Twin Peaks: The Return experience. I think a lot of the first book's ideas about American history and politics and weirdo lore are heavily filtered throughout The Return; Michael Cera's speech alone is riddled with seemingly comedic things that warrant deeper thought, which the book makes clear. Those elements give The Return a lot of weight, and I think a lot of it comes from Frost, as fleshed out in the books. So, you don't need the books, but a lot of the thematic and historical stuff in those books is also a vital part of and within The Return, which I think gets overlooked since, yes, the books are also very literal.

On the other hand, Lynch being not too good with words, as I've brought up here before, is just one of those things that I find to be untrue, even if I understand why he'd say so and why people believe him since his power is firstly directorial. I can't think of a single line of dialogue that Lynch wrote in Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive or Blue Velvet that I dislike or find distracting...in fact, I like his style of writing very much, and when he writes solo his dialogue has the advantage of being totally suited to his characters and direction in advance, which is likely why the movies that most regularly appear atop Lynch lists are Eraserhead, Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive, all of which he wrote solo. The Roadhouse Randos scenes in The Return have always struck me as containing some of the best and most distinctive writing on the show, and, regardless of their place within it, feel fully formed and precise in ways that some other sequences may not. For these reasons, I actually welcome Lynch writing solo, as I think that results in an even purer, more unified version of his work.

[Mr. Reindeer]

This is in no way meant to be argumentative regarding Frost's importance. His importance to Twin Peaks isn't up for debate, and no one is saying it is. But a few pages back I felt I wanted to point out one thing in Lynch's defense, and now I want to point out another in Frost's.

In Frost's defense, I think that while some things in those books are very literal explorations, I think they are also an integral part of the Twin Peaks: The Return experience. I think a lot of the first book's ideas about American history and politics and weirdo lore are heavily filtered throughout The Return; Michael Cera's speech alone is riddled with seemingly comedic things that warrant deeper thought, which the book makes clear. Those elements give The Return a lot of weight, and I think a lot of it comes from Frost, as fleshed out in the books. So, you don't need the books, but a lot of the thematic and historical stuff in those books is also a vital part of and within The Return, which I think gets overlooked since, yes, the books are also very literal.

On the other hand, Lynch being not too good with words, as I've brought up here before, is just one of those things that I find to be untrue, even if I understand why he'd say so and why people believe him since his power is firstly directorial. I can't think of a single line of dialogue that Lynch wrote in Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive or Blue Velvet that I dislike or find distracting...in fact, I like his style of writing very much, and when he writes solo his dialogue has the advantage of being totally suited to his characters and direction in advance, which is likely why the movies that most regularly appear atop Lynch lists are Eraserhead, Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive, all of which he wrote solo. The Roadhouse Randos scenes in The Return have always struck me as containing some of the best and most distinctive writing on the show, and, regardless of their place within it, feel fully formed and precise in ways that some other sequences may not. For these reasons, I actually welcome Lynch writing solo, as I think that results in an even purer, more unified version of his work.

I think it’s pretty well-known that I’m a Lynch fan first and a Peaks fan second, and Lynch is probably my favorite living artist (Bob Dylan and Tom Waits can fight it out while Lynch sips a cappuccino on the sidelines). That being said, personality-wise and artistically-wise, I relate to Mark much more (I’m more word-based, political, and grounded in reality than abstraction). Having read Bushman’s interview book with Frost, I think I’m attracted to Lynch for the same reason Mark is: because I wish I were more like him.

Depending on the day, I might tell you that FWWM is the most perfect piece of TP media ever made, and that film was of course done largely without Frost’s input (albeit with his half-hearted “executive producer” blessing). So I have hesitated to reply to this thread with a “No Peaks without Frost” sentiment. But I’m doing it now.

I agree with you that Lynch is a better dialogue writer than he often gives himself credit for, and rarely is a word out of place. But in terms of ideas, TP is a joint spirit-venture he and Mark undertook in 1989, and has been every step of the way (including FWWM, which was brilliantly realized by Director Lynch, but firmly grounded in the concepts and scenarios he and Frost had already conceived). I feel confident in saying there would not have been a “Part 8” or even a “Part 18” without Mark. Sure, David took the ball and ran with it in insanely interesting ways, but the foundational influence of those initial scripting conversations between the two upon the finished work cannot be overstated. A solo Lynch would have made a very different version of TR—a potentially interesting scenario to think about, but honestly, such a thing feels unholy and I’m not sure I ever want to see it. The ever-tenuous union of Mark and David is the foundation of TP, and I think DKL realizes and will always honor that.

[mtl]

Twin Peaks is both their world. or the world of both of them.

if Lynch shoots without Frost
or Frost writes without Lynch.

It is Twin Peaks if it's about Twin Peaks, innit?

[mtl]

But Maddy, wouldn't you also be a little heartbroke to have TP without Frost? I know I would.

I feel like Frost really wanted to write about Nixon and little green men and other nonsense, and used Twin Peaks to gain an audience.

not true at all. he's a professional who doesn't need TP. he wrote the books cos he felt like it. simple a that

and he had no idea either about what Lynch was going to switch around
and didn't (and still don't) seem to mind. he doesn't even know who Richie and Linda are.
Lynch, as brilliant as he is, is a little attention seeker not giving a fuck about other people's work.

[Stavrogyn]

The ever-tenuous union of Mark and David is the foundation of TP, and I think DKL realizes and will always honor that.

I agree with this. I don't think Lynch would ever make a new season without Frost. Even if he wanted to do it alone, which I don't think he would, why would Frost agree to this? In my opinion, it comes down to these two options: A) the new project is not Twin Peaks, or B) it is Twin Peaks, and Frost is, of course, involved, but he just has to deny it before the official announcement.

[Soolsma]

Right, I also didn't mean to suggest that Lynch is less qualified as a writer, just that one shouldn't downplay on Frost's contribution, which I believe is quintessential to what we know as TP; mostly so in the overarching story. I think it's evident also Lynch deems it this way, hence the collaboration on TPTR.

@Stavrogyn. Frost already denied denying involvement because of an NDA.
Mark Frost
@mfrost11
Nov 28
"No. No NDA. Not involved. Period."
^- Now of course one could still speculate about this, but it seems highly inprobably he'd go this far out of his way.

But I have to admit it wouldn't baffle me -if e.g. in the case of 13 anthology episodes- Frost would give Lynch permission to be the sole creator of an episode (or more) that involves the adventures or Richard, Linda and Carrie in Odessa-verse, since such a thing would seem more like Lynch's cup of tea (or coffee) anyway.

[LateReg]

Depending on the day, I might tell you that FWWM is the most perfect piece of TP media ever made, and that film was of course done largely without Frost’s input (albeit with his half-hearted “executive producer” blessing). So I have hesitated to reply to this thread with a “No Peaks without Frost” sentiment. But I’m doing it now.

I agree with you that Lynch is a better dialogue writer than he often gives himself credit for, and rarely is a word out of place. But in terms of ideas, TP is a joint spirit-venture he and Mark undertook in 1989, and has been every step of the way (including FWWM, which was brilliantly realized by Director Lynch, but firmly grounded in the concepts and scenarios he and Frost had already conceived). I feel confident in saying there would not have been a “Part 8” or even a “Part 18” without Mark. Sure, David took the ball and ran with it in insanely interesting ways, but the foundational influence of those initial scripting conversations between the two upon the finished work cannot be overstated. A solo Lynch would have made a very different version of TR—a potentially interesting scenario to think about, but honestly, such a thing feels unholy and I’m not sure I ever want to see it. The ever-tenuous union of Mark and David is the foundation of TP, and I think DKL realizes and will always honor that.

I agree with all that to the 98th percentile. It sounds like you're agreeing with me and taking the ball and running with what I said about Mark's books, re: Mark's ideas being integral to the foundation of the series. I've said again and again The Return is unique in Lynch's filmography for being so political, so cerebral, which is surely a product of their joint interests.

But just to be clear in case you were uncertain, I was talking about Lynch in general writing solo, not necessarily writing Twin Peaks solo or anything specifically to do with Frost, but rather with any cowriter; my statement was in response to the notion that he couldn't handle writing whatever's coming alone, which I believe he's more than capable of doing...and probably wants to do! But since you brought it up, if I were given the option between a new Twin Peaks with only Lynch writing or no Twin Peaks at all, I would of course welcome that solo scenario, in part because I think that Lynch - whether rightly or wrongly - can feel like he's handicapped by other contributors, especially in his older years. And so if he had some idea that he felt he needed to pursue alone, even under the Twin Peaks banner, I would feel confident that there is a good reason for that, and I would love to see it. I would never in a million years change The Return, but if Lynch had a zany idea of how to follow Richard and Carrie Page down a rabbit hole for three hours that didn't involve any actual writing from Frost, I'd be all for it. I'd hope that they were still friends and that there were no hard feelings...and that it was the right decision, of course.

[Soolsma]

Not sure if this was mentioned before in the wake of the recent news. I believe it's most likely we'll get to see this. AFAIK In the years post-TPTR, it's the only confirmation Lynch gave of something possibly being in the works.

From:Deadline
Does he have any movie projects or more TV projects lined up?
“I don’t. I have a box of ideas, and I’m working with producer Sabrina Sutherland, kind of trying to go through and see if there’s any gold in those boxes.”

Such a box of seemingly assorted ideas could possibly fit very well with the rumored anthology format. Worth noting is he stated this a few weeks before the sighting at Netflix HQ.

[Cappy]

Hey Soolsma! I would be disappointed if Frost were not involved, but only for a moment. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I kind of soured on Frost after his two recent Twin Peaks books. I felt a disconnect between those books and the actual series, which seems like a disconnect between he and Lynch. I feel like Frost really wanted to write about Nixon and little green men and other nonsense, and used Twin Peaks to gain an audience. Don't get me wrong... some of the content in those books is good, and appreciated. But standing on the other side of Season 3, much of what he wrote about had little relation to the actual series. And from what I can tell, Lynch had absolutely no idea or concern what Frost wrote, or how it fit into his vision of Twin Peaks.

Speaking of all that UFO project blue book type stuff in Secret History... I kinda suspect that Frost had to shelve a lot of stuff he had originally written for Secret History, as it might spoil the then forthcoming Season 3. Perhaps he and/or Lynch (and/or Showtime) decided to keep a maximum amount of mystery going into the premiere of The Return, necessitating Frost to create some filler content for Secret History. All the sections about Leo, the Hornes and Haywards etc. were then held back for a second book.

I enjoyed Secret History, but I agree -- some of the stuff in it has almost no relation to S3.

[JackwithOneEye]

Cameron from Obnoxious & Anonymous thinks Wisteria is TP related, Odessa and all that, for whatever his hunch is worth....

[Cappy]

On the Secret History tangent -- and while considering Lynch and Frost's divergent visions for Season 3 -- the depiction of Special Agent Tammy Preston onscreen vs. how she comes off in Secret History is a little jarring.

I wonder if maybe Mark had written her as more of a straightforward (and probably loquacious) FBI agent in the initial script, but then Lynch simplified her dialogue waaaay down during filming.