The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

[squealy]

I don't know; based on our limited information, it seems like they didn't approach Heather Graham, a much bigger name with far more cache these days.

I think David Duchovny is much better known than Heather Graham.

[Mr. Reindeer]

I don't know; based on our limited information, it seems like they didn't approach Heather Graham, a much bigger name with far more cache these days.

I think David Duchovny is much better known than Heather Graham.

Perhaps. I guess such things are hard to quantify. I think of Graham as a film star and Duchovny as a TV star. Even in this golden age of quality TV, film actors are typically viewed as having more cache/adding value to a production than TV actors. Duchovny's film career never really took off, while Graham has consistently been working in film for over two decades, and I also think her status as a sex symbol keeps her in the public consciousness moreso than Duchovny due to her frequent appearances on magazines/talk shows/etc. On the other hand, Graham rarely plays the lead, and most of her recent films haven't been huge hits (besides the Hangover films), whereas Duchovny has starred in two TV series, one a cultural phenomenon and the other a decent hit. So maybe you're right.

[FrightNight]

I don't usually like dissing the lesser appreciated pets of Twin Peaks. It's my favourite show for not only the groundbreaking storyline and mythology, but for the controversies surrounding the show itself. The weaker elements of late S2, the ratings drop and the 'indefinite hiatus' all play a part in the shows history and I love reading the many books and articles that document the off-set struggles too.

That's EXACTLY how I feel - all the controversies and off-screen happenings are hugely interesting, especially the way they influenced the on-screen narrative. I enjoy getting to know and discussing these things for hours on end and never get tired of it. The weaker elements of late S 2 are definitely a part of the show's history and I wouldn't have it any other way - I hate how some S 2 haters simply dismiss everything that came after Laura's killer revelation as hogwash, even though the show still had plenty to say after that and was in some way - mythology-wise - only beginning to get seriously kooky. It took a while for things to snowball toward the fantastic "conclusion", but I feel those "slow" episodes rather came at the right time 'cause they give a viewer a chance to catch his breath after cataclysmic killer's revelation and before the narrative picks up again. Even though I don't particularly care for much of the goofy aspects of that stretch of episodes and I don't like how formerly burning S 1 characters got sidelined, I still say S 2, on the whole, is just as integral part of TP experience and legacy as S 1 (and, to an extent, FWWM).

2). Windom Earle and Annie Blackburn are great characters for me. Whatever your opinions are of each of these characters, they definitely feature in a huge part of the shows mythology which can't be denied. Windom and Annie along with Cooper are the only 3 characters who managed to get into the black lodge/red room via Glastonbury Grove (Leland did too but not on the show). The fact that the last words spoken on Twin Peaks was "How's Annie?" is testament that she will always be a massive part of the show. Personally, I was pretty miffed that Heather Graham's name wasn't on the new cast list but since I've been on record here several times stating that the show is in safe hands with Lynch and Frost then I'll not moan! Also I thought Kenneth Welsh's acting was brilliant. Heather Graham's was good too considering the character was rushed in at the last minute.

YOU'RE MY MAN! Still don't understand how these two could be considered anything less than pivotal, more so than a whole lot of S 1 guys and girls. They both got us to know more about our main protagonist, Earle about his (ie. Cooper's) past and Annie about his romantic side, they served as his/our entrance to the Black Lodge that brought Laura back into focus, Annie appeared in FWWM to hint about that which was still to happen etc. etc. There's simply no way that they can be overlooked when analysing the TP experience (and I hope they don't get overlooked in the new season)! In light of their importance, someone like Audrey Horne, the much-loved Cooper's potential romantic interest, was little more than a footnote. That and I downright love Welsh's and Graham's delivery of their characters!

[FrightNight]

But regarding the sawmill plot, if we look at things through a first viewing, it's just as much of the murder plot. Everything is, and we're questioning everything. Andy crying is part of the murder plot, Major Briggs slapping Bobby is part of the murder plot. Everything is alive because we don't know, and everything and everyone is a suspect. We question the ulterior motives of everyone.

THIS. I think you nailed the reason for S 1 being as well regarded as it is all these years after it originally aired - because everyone, and I mean everyone, featured on it appeared interesting and intriguing to us as he/she could've contain that one crucial bit of information that would lead us to Laura's killer (or even might be that person him/herself).
Once that main mystery got resolved, however, a lot of those people became superfluos, they kinda withered and faded, as they simply weren't interesting enough on their own for us to continue investing in them, some of them even descended into charicatures of their former selves (Dr. Jacoby, Nadine Hurley and Bobby Briggs, for instance). So I think that has a lot to do with S 2 being as demonized as it was/is - 'cause writers couldn't figure out a way to make those characters work without the Laura stuff lingering in the(ir) background. So the decision to bring in characters without the Laura baggage that could function on their own and were even featured in mainly SERIOUS storyarcs - Jean Renault, Andrew Packard, Thomas Echardt, Annie Blackburn, Windom Earle - was the right one in light of keeping the things going while the next big hook (the Lodges) could be figured out. It's a shame the show had to end when it did, for if it would continue, I feel we would have gotten a really stellar 3rd season that would've continued the momentum of late S 2 ... In a way, I fear this next season won't be as strong (but that's just me and my inner demons, still not quite comprehending this is happening at all ).

[hopesfall]

Are you a fan of the iconic "I had a vision" monologue he gives to Bobby? That would be controversial

This is without doubt in my top 3 scenes in the entire show.

[Ped]

I don't usually like dissing the lesser appreciated pets of Twin Peaks. It's my favourite show for not only the groundbreaking storyline and mythology, but for the controversies surrounding the show itself. The weaker elements of late S2, the ratings drop and the 'indefinite hiatus' all play a part in the shows history and I love reading the many books and articles that document the off-set struggles too.

That's EXACTLY how I feel - all the controversies and off-screen happenings are hugely interesting, especially the way they influenced the on-screen narrative. I enjoy getting to know and discussing these things for hours on end and never get tired of it. The weaker elements of late S 2 are definitely a part of the show's history and I wouldn't have it any other way - I hate how some S 2 haters simply dismiss everything that came after Laura's killer revelation as hogwash, even though the show still had plenty to say after that and was in some way - mythology-wise - only beginning to get seriously kooky. It took a while for things to snowball toward the fantastic "conclusion", but I feel those "slow" episodes rather came at the right time 'cause they give a viewer a chance to catch his breath after cataclysmic killer's revelation and before the narrative picks up again. Even though I don't particularly care for much of the goofy aspects of that stretch of episodes and I don't like how formerly burning S 1 characters got sidelined, I still say S 2, on the whole, is just as integral part of TP experience and legacy as S 1 (and, to an extent, FWWM).

2). Windom Earle and Annie Blackburn are great characters for me. Whatever your opinions are of each of these characters, they definitely feature in a huge part of the shows mythology which can't be denied. Windom and Annie along with Cooper are the only 3 characters who managed to get into the black lodge/red room via Glastonbury Grove (Leland did too but not on the show). The fact that the last words spoken on Twin Peaks was "How's Annie?" is testament that she will always be a massive part of the show. Personally, I was pretty miffed that Heather Graham's name wasn't on the new cast list but since I've been on record here several times stating that the show is in safe hands with Lynch and Frost then I'll not moan! Also I thought Kenneth Welsh's acting was brilliant. Heather Graham's was good too considering the character was rushed in at the last minute.

YOU'RE MY MAN! Still don't understand how these two could be considered anything less than pivotal, more so than a whole lot of S 1 guys and girls. They both got us to know more about our main protagonist, Earle about his (ie. Cooper's) past and Annie about his romantic side, they served as his/our entrance to the Black Lodge that brought Laura back into focus, Annie appeared in FWWM to hint about that which was still to happen etc. etc. There's simply no way that they can be overlooked when analysing the TP experience (and I hope they don't get overlooked in the new season)! in light of their importance, someone like Audrey Horne, the much-loved Cooper's potential romantic interest, was little more than a footnote. That and I downright love Welsh's and Graham's delivery of their characters!

I do love the Audrey Horne character, but I also agree that in the grand scheme of all things Twin Peaks, she isn't one of the most pivotal characters. Audrey has no doubt inspired a new generation of female Twin Peaks fans with her 50's inspired fashion sense and kooky image. Her dance scene and cherry stem scene will always be a large part of Twin Peaks folklore. However, and I know Sherilyn Fenn agrees as she said as much in Reflections, her character was lost in S2. I genuinely hope we see Audrey down on her luck, estranged from the Horne's and living in Deer Meadow with a brat of a kid and one side of her body covered in burns. I know this will never happen but it would give the character and Sherilyn some good gritty material to work with.

[Clueless]

I admit that I do love that scene where "Good Ben" challenges Catherine to listen to her conscious though, especially since she was a bit humanized with that speel about guardian angels and her reminiscing about her early courtship with Pete. I don't care too much for the Justice Wheeler and the weasel storyline, but I kind of liked the idea of all the sleazeballs that Ben surrounded himself with being aggressively challenged to think a little about their ethics.

[LostInTheMovies]

But regarding the sawmill plot, if we look at things through a first viewing, it's just as much of the murder plot. Everything is, and we're questioning everything. Andy crying is part of the murder plot, Major Briggs slapping Bobby is part of the murder plot. Everything is alive because we don't know, and everything and everyone is a suspect. We question the ulterior motives of everyone.

THIS. I think you nailed the reason for S 1 being as well regarded as it is all these years after it originally aired - because everyone, and I mean everyone, featured on it appeared interesting and intriguing to us as he/she could've contain that one crucial bit of information that would lead us to Laura's killer (or even might be that person him/herself).
Once that main mystery got resolved, however, a lot of those people became superfluos, they kinda withered and faded, as they simply weren't interesting enough on their own for us to continue investing in them, some of them even descended into charicatures of their former selves (Dr. Jacoby, Nadine Hurley and Bobby Briggs, for instance).

Someone actually kind of touches on this down-thread (w/ the comment about Ben forcing the sleazeballs around him to be ethical) but I think another issue that doesn't get touched upon that much is the characters losing their edge.

Quite a few characters in season 1 - Ben, Catherine, Leo, Hank, Jerry, Jacoby, Bobby, Nadine, increasingly (thiugh not initially) Josie - are not conventionally likable. Granted, some are supposed to be pure villains but others are more complex: characters who might charm us one moment, repel us the next; and this contributes to that "anyone could be the killer" vibe.

S2 definitely flattens this. And while it's often given credit for trying *too* hard (I usually think of "Good Ben" as an attempt to stretch the character, not simplify him) I think a case could be made that the net result is actually a reduction of the character's compelling nature. The model becomes less the nighttime soap or crime drama, in which almost everyone is varying degrees of bitchy, treacherous, or long-suffering and more the fifth or sixth season of a sitcom, when all the familiar faces have settled into their lovable roles. That first Pine Weasel scene for example (when Ben introduces the drawing) could almost be a scene from Friends in tone if not content - much as I love Jerry's "they're great roasted" line, the Hornes a long way from the hilarious yet frighteningly sociopathic pimps from episode 2.

There's a certain smugness to the "let's check in with our waaacky friends from Twin Peaks this week!" which, as much as anything else, contributes to the bad aftertaste of season 2, even some of the better stretches. It's easier to overlook this on rewatches, moving through everything quickly and perhaps conceptualizing it as one big move-like narrative, whatever the ups and downs. But it REALLY struck me on my first viewing, and I'm reminded of it sometimes when I watch old promos that contextualize the show in the early 90s TV landscape. Part of the reason I can appreciate even the worst of Twin Peaks is that the attempt to fit Twin Peaks into the formulaic Mayberry-with-a-postmodern-twist! 22-episode season format (is this what Northern Exposure was like? I never saw it) was always doomed to failure. Twin Peaks was a mystery box-shaped peg being hammered into a donut-shaped hole. At best this means the good stuff can't quite be suppressed even when the network and writers seem to be doing their best. And even at its worst, this means the show is a kind of bumbling monstrosity, which is a hell of a lot more perversely fascinating than a successfully bland sitcom. Like Nadine trying in vain to be a high school senior - Twin Peaks mid-season 2 ain't fooling anyone.

[laughingpinecone]

Agreed with Lost in the movies, great comparisons. And it makes me wonder how much the original plans for a never-ending structure were ever feasible at all, even with the best imaginable plotting and writing. I think so, but with extreme difficulties and not with the way the plot had been established up to ep16, which marked a Leland -Laura-Coop cycle as the story's main beats. A surreal anthology of interconnected little stories sounds cool to me, but not as cool as the story we got, and it would've needed a different setup from the get-go imho.

Onto my own pet unpopular opinion! The Giant is a jerk and he's also MIKE's aspect, or at least he was retconned that way in ep29 and then FWWM. So there.

[Brad D]

There's a certain smugness to the "let's check in with our waaacky friends from Twin Peaks this week!" which, as much as anything else, contributes to the bad aftertaste of season 2, even some of the better stretches. It's easier to overlook this on rewatches, moving through everything quickly and perhaps conceptualizing it as one big move-like narrative, whatever the ups and downs. But it REALLY struck me on my first viewing, and I'm reminded of it sometimes when I watch old promos that contextualize the show in the early 90s TV landscape. Part of the reason I can appreciate even the worst of Twin Peaks is that the attempt to fit Twin Peaks into the formulaic Mayberry-with-a-postmodern-twist! 22-episode season format (is this what Northern Exposure was like? I never saw it) was always doomed to failure. Twin Peaks was a mystery box-shaped peg being hammered into a donut-shaped hole. At best this means the good stuff can't quite be suppressed even when the network and writers seem to be doing their best. And even at its worst, this means the show is a kind of bumbling monstrosity, which is a hell of a lot more perversely fascinating than a successfully bland sitcom. Like Nadine trying in vain to be a high school senior - Twin Peaks mid-season 2 ain't fooling anyone.

I think the only way for TP to have survived in its original era was to exist as an ongoing miniseries. With this many characters and layers, it was going to blow up (in a bad way) trying to make 22 episodes year in and year out. Even with dedicated showrunners and a nice budget, LOST had to cut down their episodes. The first half of TP S2 had its tracks laid by Lynch and Frost, and honestly it would take those guys sitting down together to hatch a solid plan to continue after EP 16, which didn't happen.

As time has passed, I've changed my thoughts about the rest of S2, or perhaps been filled with more questions. If you look at On the Air's pilot or read the script to One Saliva Bubble, it seems to me that Lynch and Frost were absolutely into absurd humor and mistaken identity, and I honestly don't think anyone can point a finger at Harley Peyton or Bob Engels for screwing things up. They were running with themes that seemed completely Lynch/Frost-ian in the era. Honestly, if they had pulled something completely out of line, Lynch or Frost would have nixed it before it got too far (I don't think Lynch/Frost were ever THAT tuned out of things regardless, as it feels like they were at least reading every script). If anyone is to blame for a moment you don't like, you have to pin it on Lynch and Frost for letting it happen, IMHO. Lynch casted Evelyn Marsh himself, after all.

When you take Nadine as a teenager or Ben's Civil War into account, Lynch has spent his entire post-TP screen career focusing on existential identity crises. Even the pineweasel riot or cringeworthy Miss TP pageant moments fall in line with what Lynch and Frost were doing in On the Air and One Saliva Bubble. For me, it's still an incredible mystery how post-WKLP season 2 exactly came together.

[Mr. Reindeer]

LostInTheMovies - Perfectly stated. I agree with everything you wrote. Late season 2 Ben/Bobby/etc. feel like later-season sitcom characters who lose their complex edge and become cuddly and familiar - Hawkeye Syndrome, for the 'M*A*S*H' fans. However, in the case of TP, this process was accelerated in truly unique fashion due to the strange behind-the-scenes circumstances - the back half of TP season 2 (with the possible exception of the Black Lodge/Earle stuff) feels like what should be TP season 6 or 7, tone-wise.

I also agree with Brad (and he would know better than anyone not directly involved in the original show's production) that Lynch & Frost are more responsible for this than most of us would like to think. My personal least favorite storyline is the Nadine high school crap, which I find flat-out embarrassing for the show and the actress (and which destroyed a character I previously found incredibly sympathetic and compelling). That sort of humor could easily have come straight from the same minds that created 'One Saliva Bubble' (and quite possibly did, since Lynch & particularly Frost were still very involved in the show when that plotline was introduced). I actually find OSB mostly amusing (although not the masterpiece some claim); however, I've always found the intrusion of that style into the previously tonally-consistent world of TP wildly inappropriate, jarring, and frustrating.

[Dining With Diane]

My controversial opinion that I am unashamed of - and am actually kind of shocked is controversial (maybe not on dugpa but certainly elsewhere in the Twin Peaks fandom) is that I love the Just You sequence. It's so quintessentially Lynch to me, pure goofy-innocent 50s teen culture, reminding me of Jeff-Sandy in Blue Velvet and the soundstage lip-syncing audition in Mulholland Dr. And it sets up Bob's appearance perfectly.

My controversial opinion that I'm actually kinda embarrassed about, which is more of a guilty pleasure...I actually really like listening to that song on its own haha.

I also like that song and that scene. the music of Twin Peaks is part of what fascinated me about it, as it is pretty distinctive compared to the music of other tv shows of its time and the present. Just You, I'm Hurt bad, and Sycamore Trees are why i bought the soundtracks.

[Dining With Diane]

i like windom earle. a lot. he's a wonderful dark reflection of Dale. I wish there'd been more of him in season 2. I just don't agree that his name is spelled that way. to me it sounds like it should be spelled Windham, but even the subtitles on netflix spell it with the o, so i guess i have to deal with it.

I also greatly appreciate dick tremayne. I agree that his behavior matches his name, and that's why I love watching Little Nicky antagonize him.

not sure if it's controversial or never discussed before, but i suspect the mystery man in Lost Highway is the Fire of "fire, walk with me." his desert hideout seems to be on fire (playing backwards like so many Red Room-affiliated things are backwards) until he steps outside, then it is fine and unburnt.

[LostInTheMovies]

There's a certain smugness to the "let's check in with our waaacky friends from Twin Peaks this week!" which, as much as anything else, contributes to the bad aftertaste of season 2, even some of the better stretches. It's easier to overlook this on rewatches, moving through everything quickly and perhaps conceptualizing it as one big move-like narrative, whatever the ups and downs. But it REALLY struck me on my first viewing, and I'm reminded of it sometimes when I watch old promos that contextualize the show in the early 90s TV landscape. Part of the reason I can appreciate even the worst of Twin Peaks is that the attempt to fit Twin Peaks into the formulaic Mayberry-with-a-postmodern-twist! 22-episode season format (is this what Northern Exposure was like? I never saw it) was always doomed to failure. Twin Peaks was a mystery box-shaped peg being hammered into a donut-shaped hole. At best this means the good stuff can't quite be suppressed even when the network and writers seem to be doing their best. And even at its worst, this means the show is a kind of bumbling monstrosity, which is a hell of a lot more perversely fascinating than a successfully bland sitcom. Like Nadine trying in vain to be a high school senior - Twin Peaks mid-season 2 ain't fooling anyone.

I think the only way for TP to have survived in its original era was to exist as an ongoing miniseries. With this many characters and layers, it was going to blow up (in a bad way) trying to make 22 episodes year in and year out. Even with dedicated showrunners and a nice budget, LOST had to cut down their episodes. The first half of TP S2 had its tracks laid by Lynch and Frost, and honestly it would take those guys sitting down together to hatch a solid plan to continue after EP 16, which didn't happen.

As time has passed, I've changed my thoughts about the rest of S2, or perhaps been filled with more questions. If you look at On the Air's pilot or read the script to One Saliva Bubble, it seems to me that Lynch and Frost were absolutely into absurd humor and mistaken identity, and I honestly don't think anyone can point a finger at Harley Peyton or Bob Engels for screwing things up. They were running with themes that seemed completely Lynch/Frost-ian in the era. Honestly, if they had pulled something completely out of line, Lynch or Frost would have nixed it before it got too far (I don't think Lynch/Frost were ever THAT tuned out of things regardless, as it feels like they were at least reading every script). If anyone is to blame for a moment you don't like, you have to pin it on Lynch and Frost for letting it happen, IMHO. Lynch casted Evelyn Marsh himself, after all.

When you take Nadine as a teenager or Ben's Civil War into account, Lynch has spent his entire post-TP screen career focusing on existential identity crises. Even the pineweasel riot or cringeworthy Miss TP pageant moments fall in line with what Lynch and Frost were doing in On the Air and One Saliva Bubble. For me, it's still an incredible mystery how post-WKLP season 2 exactly came together.

Great points. Likewise, I've been inclined to see more Lynch/Frost at the steering wheel thanks to recent interviews with Peyton (including your own) as well as the old one from Wrapped in Plastic, which had some interesting excerpts in John Thorne's new book. Plus as you say, the tone is very consistent with On the Air-era Lynch/Frost (which makes the sudden switch to finale/FWWM mode all the more jolting). I feel like the problem was threefold: 1) Neither of them really seemed to have their heart in the material even if it did begin with them - a concept like Laura just screams "Lynch" in a fundamental way whereas some of the wackier stuff feels more like the moments you'd find in his minor works (like Cowboy and the Frenchman) or in the margins of his features (especially Wild at Heart) without the rooting in dark mystery that all his major works have. 2) Most key: even if L/F were conceiving and approving this stuff they clearly weren't playing much of a role in actually executing it, with even Frost not writing a script for ten episodes - thus it's missing that extra edge that On the Air or Wild at Heart or other outlandish examples of the time had. 3) Even if the material represents the L/F sensibility, it lacks the combustion of their collaboration - by most accounts they simply weren't around each other very much at this point and were contributing ideas somewhat separately. It's almost like they were trying to summon up the spirit of their past collaborations without actually collaborating.

The whole situation was a nightmare scenario for sure. Its always striking to me that the Lynch/Frost partnership lasted about 6 years and the production of the pilot came right at the midpoint. It could be seen as the beginning of the end rather than the end of the beginning.

[AgentCoop]

Not so much a controversial opinion as a shameful confession: I laugh out loud every time I see Little Nicky send Andy spinning off his stool at the RR. Every. Time.