The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

General discussion on Twin Peaks not related to the series, film, books, music, photos, or collectors merchandise.

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Clueless
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The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Post by Clueless »

Unless it devolves into undue snark, I usually enjoy all the back-and-forth that inevitably occurs whenever someone airs an unpopular reading or opinion of TP. Also since the attack/defends spring up eternally in any given thread they have breathing-space here.


Eric De Rey is a good and talented actor

Eric's portrayal of Leo doesn't come off as wooden or amateur to me at all. His emotionless lines strike me as befitting a sociopath and his expressionless face is incredibly menacing. I personally see him as one of the chief antagonists of the first season. Although it is obvious he is a red-herring to the case he is the original villain of the show. For those who aren't as keen on the supernatural aspect he can rival BOB in the menace he emanates-every scene he is in you never know if he might explode and beat his wife, shoot Bobby/Mike or spazz out at some inanimate object. I mean the simple act of slicing open the football is done with a sickening menace-its great acting. He's perhaps the most gritty and believable of the Twin Peaks villains.

The Ben Horne Civil War subplot is interesting

I can see why people can't stand it, but I found this ridiculous subplot weirdly moving and felt it actually built upon, in an erratic fashion, a lot of the shows major themes. I'll agree Richard Beymer can't help but give a magnetic performance and sure the goofy writing didn't take advantage of his talent, but the retreat into civil war fantasies was far from a non-sequator. It's generally agreed upon, I think, that Horne watching footage from his childhood and remembering his dancing babysitter are masterful and humanizing performances and the fact that he jumps from wallowing in childhood nostalgia in trying to relive the civil war is even more hyperbolic than Nadine's cheerleader shtick. But unlike Nadine Ben's breakdown is as political as it is (cloyingly) emotional- larger forces, once allies, seemingly double cross him and take what he felt was his birthright- in the same way the South felt they were economically and emotionally ransacked by the North. The amorality of the slave trade isn't brought up, but to me its always on the forefront, it's Ben Horne's amorality and exploitation of the downtrodden and labor force(funding a brothel, burning a mill that employs most of the town) that eventually leads to his tragedy. He literally re-imagines himself as General Lee and casts himself as an unlikely hero to traverse the tragedy and only than returns to his ordinary self. Except he awakes as Ben Horne the altruistic businessman, strangely continuing his role even though its ambiguous where his actions are coming from. Catherine sees his weasel campaign as petty revenge and his actions toward the Hayward's seem somewhat cruel, as his own wife points out. Anyhow I like the (arguable)ambiguity of that plot and the odd civil War stuff, though I'm painfully aware why some would despise it)

Cooper can be read to have a slight cruel streak

I find Cooper's curios smile when he finds something especially sultry or dark a bit needlessly cruel at times. For example, when he finds the porn magazine or Laura's cocaine. Truman is taken aback and is finding it hard to take in,meanwhile Dale is grinning ear to ear! Also when he pegs Shelly down for not pressing charges against Leo he kind of rubs her in her own face, sarcastically observing that he hopes she will one day get the husband that she deserves back and that he will realize what a wonderful wife she is. He has a fair point but he doesn't imagine that Shelley might have been coerced into it, or that her decisions are base don fear and are her own worse enemy. I'm reading the script and IIRC it's a bit different from the way it was directed, but he says she is an "old-fashioned girl" who "keeps her money at home." I kind of like seeing that mischievous side of Coop come out, be it "I know dark shit that you don't know" or "I see straight through you"-but I know a lot of people don't read these lines/behavior that way.


What controversial opines do you have, thread readers?
Or why are mine terribly stupid and misinformed? :evil:
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Post by Cerulean »

Oddly enough, I agree with all of these. :mrgreen:
Clueless wrote: Eric De Rey is a good and talented actor

Eric's portrayal of Leo doesn't come off as wooden or amateur to me at all. His emotionless lines strike me as befitting a sociopath and his expressionless face is incredibly menacing. I personally see him as one of the chief antagonists of the first season. Although it is obvious he is a red-herring to the case he is the original villain of the show. For those who aren't as keen on the supernatural aspect he can rival BOB in the menace he emanates-every scene he is in you never know if he might explode and beat his wife, shoot Bobby/Mike or spazz out at some inanimate object. I mean the simple act of slicing open the football is done with a sickening menace-its great acting. He's perhaps the most gritty and believable of the Twin Peaks villains.
You're right, Eric's facial expressions alone are menacing, which is what makes that scene in "Episode 21" with the power outage/attacking Shelley much more threatening. I was actually surprised when I watched him interviewed on Donohue and he was smiling and polite, it seemed so off-putting!
Clueless wrote:
The Ben Horne Civil War subplot is interesting
I can see why people can't stand it, but I found this ridiculous subplot weirdly moving and felt it actually built upon, in an erratic fashion, a lot of the shows major themes. I'll agree Richard Beymer can't help but give a magnetic performance and sure the goofy writing didn't take advantage of his talent, but the retreat into civil war fantasies was far from a non-sequator. It's generally agreed upon, I think, that Horne watching footage from his childhood and remembering his dancing babysitter are masterful and humanizing performances and the fact that he jumps from wallowing in childhood nostalgia in trying to relive the civil war is even more hyperbolic than Nadine's cheerleader shtick. But unlike Nadine Ben's breakdown is as political as it is (cloyingly) emotional- larger forces, once allies, seemingly double cross him and take what he felt was his birthright- in the same way the South felt they were economically and emotionally ransacked by the North. The amorality of the slave trade isn't brought up, but to me its always on the forefront, it's Ben Horne's amorality and exploitation of the downtrodden and labor force(funding a brothel, burning a mill that employs most of the town) that eventually leads to his tragedy. He literally re-imagines himself as General Lee and casts himself as an unlikely hero to traverse the tragedy and only than returns to his ordinary self. Except he awakes as Ben Horne the altruistic businessman, strangely continuing his role even though its ambiguous where his actions are coming from. Catherine sees his weasel campaign as petty revenge and his actions toward the Hayward's seem somewhat cruel, as his own wife points out. Anyhow I like the (arguable)ambiguity of that plot and the odd civil War stuff, though I'm painfully aware why some would despise it)
Ben's breakdown is one of the better parts of season 2 ("better" being relative to the other things going on: Evelyn/James, Josie/Catherine), and the ending extremely interesting. There's (perhaps unintentional) foreshadowing to the finale when Ben comes back to reality: he faints and he falls head first into the floor, and almost an inversion of the Wizard of Oz ending when he wakes and finds the people he knows as characters rather than themselves.
Clueless wrote: Cooper can be read to have a slight cruel streak

I find Cooper's curios smile when he finds something especially sultry or dark a bit needlessly cruel at times. For example, when he finds the porn magazine or Laura's cocaine. Truman is taken aback and is finding it hard to take in,meanwhile Dale is grinning ear to ear! Also when he pegs Shelly down for not pressing charges against Leo he kind of rubs her in her own face, sarcastically observing that he hopes she will one day get the husband that she deserves back and that he will realize what a wonderful wife she is. He has a fair point but he doesn't imagine that Shelley might have been coerced into it, or that her decisions are base don fear and are her own worse enemy. I'm reading the script and IIRC it's a bit different from the way it was directed, but he says she is an "old-fashioned girl" who "keeps her money at home." I kind of like seeing that mischievous side of Coop come out, be it "I know dark shit that you don't know" or "I see straight through you"-but I know a lot of people don't read these lines/behavior that way.
100% agree, but I think the ear-to-ear smiles and wide eyes early on in season 1 were more to do with setting him up as an eccentric.

I think the moment that bothers me most is in "Episode 17" where Audrey says "someone must have hurt you real bad ... did she die or something?" and he replies "as a matter of fact she did, you want to know how?" with an extremely defensive tone and a strange look, almost to make her feel guilty. Then he explains about Caroline/Pittsburgh and ends with "you want to know more?" in the same tone. It seemed deliberately cruel and hurtful, despite the fact it's obviously a tragic backstory. Just seems completely out of character to me.
Last edited by Cerulean on Thu May 26, 2016 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Clueless wrote:I find Cooper's curios smile when he finds something especially sultry or dark a bit needlessly cruel at times. For example, when he finds the porn magazine or Laura's cocaine.
I think Coop's ability to be gleeful in the face of darkness nicely highlights the dichotomy of the character - as sweet and innocent as he is, he's seen it all, and is to some extent desensitized. I.e., we see time and again that he has great sympathy for Laura and feels awful about what happened to her - but in the moment when he finds the cocaine, he can't help feeling happy to be right, because he's good at his job (and closer to solving the crime).

Mark Frost has made it very well-known that he's a huge Sherlock Holmes fan, and that Holmes was an influence on Coop (I recall Frost's brother dropping some references to Coop being a Sherlock Holmes fanboy in MLMT, but I don't recall the specifics). Personally, as a huge fan of both characters, I've never seen too much of Holmes in Coop. However, one similarity is that both can get so swept up in solving a crime that they lose sight of the human element - that it's not just an intellectual puzzle, and that human suffering is at the root of it all. Coop definitely has more humanity than Holmes, but the Holmes influence might be the origin of some of those moments, I think.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Post by AgentCoop »

My controversial TP opinion is...Major Briggs isn't all that interesting. I like him in small doses as Bobby's straight-arrow father, but some of that Season Two post-Palmer stuff has me rolling my eyes. I kind of root for Windom Earle when he's got the Major tied up.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Post by Clueless »

Cerulean wrote: I think the moment that bothers me most is in "Episode 17" where Audrey says "someone must have hurt you real bad ... did she die or something?" and he replies "as a matter of fact she did, you want to know how?" with an extremely defensive tone and a strange look, almost to make her feel guilty. Then he explains about Caroline/Pittsburgh and ends with "you want to know more?" in the same tone. It seemed deliberately cruel and hurtful, despite the fact it's obviously a tragic backstory. Just seems completely out of character to me.
I feel that scene was trying to do too much at once- give the whole Caroline/Earl backstory but also conclude Audrey/Cooper character relation-and it comes off as a bit wonky. I thought his defensiveness was getting out of hand and the chemistry was just weird, but the script directions do say Cooper is "trying to shock" and that afterwards Audrey is "chastened and horrified," so I guess they were indeed going for a bit of buried aggressiveness. Weird. It also seems a bit gratuitous to write Audrey as "coy girl accidentally learning dark secret about the world" after so soon after her One-Eyed Jack arc.
Mr. Reindeer wrote: Personally, as a huge fan of both characters, I've never seen too much of Holmes in Coop. However, one similarity is that both can get so swept up in solving a crime that they lose sight of the human element - that it's not just an intellectual puzzle, and that human suffering is at the root of it all.
Agreed- Holmes and Cooper seem almost at polar opposites of the spectrum, with Holmes relying on logic and Cooper on the occult, but they both can be fanatical in their practices.

Cooper half reminds me of the detective Eric Lonnrot in a story by Jorge Borges- Death and the Compass. Obsessed with the occult a detective gets carried away by reading a kabbalistic meaning into a series of murders each with a letter left behind. A very human element is behind the murders but his fascination in the occult patterns he is unveiling actually obscures the fact that it is simply a hateful and elaborate revenge plot by someone he had wronged in the past.
AgentCoop wrote:My controversial TP opinion is...Major Briggs isn't all that interesting. I like him in small doses as Bobby's straight-arrow father, but some of that Season Two post-Palmer stuff has me rolling my eyes. I kind of root for Windom Earle when he's got the Major tied up.

Are you a fan of the iconic "I had a vision" monologue he gives to Bobby? That would be controversial :wink:

He kind of becomes a more stereotypical "wise hero" who imparts secret knowledge later on, instead of the cerebral dude who can't communicate with his own son. I still like seeing such a wordy guy completely lose his ability to rationally communicate, it was more foreboding than most of Windom's shenanigans IMO.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

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My controversial opinion that I am unashamed of - and am actually kind of shocked is controversial (maybe not on dugpa but certainly elsewhere in the Twin Peaks fandom) is that I love the Just You sequence. It's so quintessentially Lynch to me, pure goofy-innocent 50s teen culture, reminding me of Jeff-Sandy in Blue Velvet and the soundstage lip-syncing audition in Mulholland Dr. And it sets up Bob's appearance perfectly.

My controversial opinion that I'm actually kinda embarrassed about, which is more of a guilty pleasure...I actually really like listening to that song on its own haha.
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LostInTheMovies wrote:My controversial opinion that I am unashamed of - and am actually kind of shocked is controversial (maybe not on dugpa but certainly elsewhere in the Twin Peaks fandom) is that I love the Just You sequence. It's so quintessentially Lynch to me, pure goofy-innocent 50s teen culture, reminding me of Jeff-Sandy in Blue Velvet and the soundstage lip-syncing audition in Mulholland Dr. And it sets up Bob's appearance perfectly.

My controversial opinion that I'm actually kinda embarrassed about, which is more of a guilty pleasure...I actually really like listening to that song on its own haha.
You're not alone with that opinion.
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LostInTheMovies wrote:My controversial opinion that I am unashamed of - and am actually kind of shocked is controversial (maybe not on dugpa but certainly elsewhere in the Twin Peaks fandom) is that I love the Just You sequence. It's so quintessentially Lynch to me, pure goofy-innocent 50s teen culture, reminding me of Jeff-Sandy in Blue Velvet and the soundstage lip-syncing audition in Mulholland Dr. And it sets up Bob's appearance perfectly.

My controversial opinion that I'm actually kinda embarrassed about, which is more of a guilty pleasure...I actually really like listening to that song on its own haha.
I'm curious, was that your initial reaction?

When I first watched Twin Peaks I was absolutely baffled by it, almost insulted, but I was young and misread a lot of the camp elements. After re-watching I felt it was that weird "domestic ethereal" kind of mood that only Lynch can do, and a genius way to really sedate and suddenly shock the audience with BOB'S appearance, make two worlds clash. Now I'm on the same boat as you, and actually find it stuck in my head sometimes, and its not unpleasant.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

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Clueless wrote:
AgentCoop wrote:My controversial TP opinion is...Major Briggs isn't all that interesting. I like him in small doses as Bobby's straight-arrow father, but some of that Season Two post-Palmer stuff has me rolling my eyes. I kind of root for Windom Earle when he's got the Major tied up.

Are you a fan of the iconic "I had a vision" monologue he gives to Bobby? That would be controversial :wink:

He kind of becomes a more stereotypical "wise hero" who imparts secret knowledge later on, instead of the cerebral dude who can't communicate with his own son. I still like seeing such a wordy guy completely lose his ability to rationally communicate, it was more foreboding than most of Windom's shenanigans IMO.

I should have mentioned the fact that I absolutely love the "I had a vision" scene (I shouldn't post on the go)! If you don't love that scene, you have no heart.

Yeah, it's mostly the Project Blue Book stuff that comes along much later. They were just trying way too hard to make him mysterious, and for me it just didn't land.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Post by Boy »

Major Briggs character was build up nicely and there always were indications he had a secret agenda probably in the military, in the season two opener.
What brought down Major Briggs character in the end was Windom Earle's treatment because if Earle was more serious, like it he was meant to be, Briggs's character would have benefit from that too.
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Mb3 wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:My controversial opinion that I am unashamed of - and am actually kind of shocked is controversial (maybe not on dugpa but certainly elsewhere in the Twin Peaks fandom) is that I love the Just You sequence. It's so quintessentially Lynch to me, pure goofy-innocent 50s teen culture, reminding me of Jeff-Sandy in Blue Velvet and the soundstage lip-syncing audition in Mulholland Dr. And it sets up Bob's appearance perfectly.

My controversial opinion that I'm actually kinda embarrassed about, which is more of a guilty pleasure...I actually really like listening to that song on its own haha.
You're not alone with that opinion.

No, you're DEFINITELY not alone :)

A great idea for a thread, btw! Kudos to you, Clueless, this coming from the tried-and-true controversial-theories bickerer :)
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Anyway, here's a handful of my controversial opinions (there's a lot of them and i probably forgot something, so I'll post it later, when I remember it), some of which have been discussed (sometimes quite bitterly) on other threads to where I managed to sneak them :)

I think:

- that S 2 is at least as good as S 1, the first portion of it even decidedly better;
- that the infamous mid-S 2 slump doesn't last as long as is popularly believed - instead of 6-7 episodes, I think it lasts for only 3 (and even they are not THAT bad), this being from E 18 (Leland's wake) to E 20;
- that late S 2 introduces a plethora of characters that are way more interesting and intriguing than the majority of S 1 characters have become by that point, this savory characters (who saved the show's bacon from all the silliness they were bombarding us with in the second half of the show) being: Windom Earle, Jean Renault (o.k., he was introduced at the beginning of S 2 but the payoff in regards to his charcater came about much later), Thomas Eckhardt, Andrew Packard and, of course, Annie Blackburn;
- that MacLachlan and LFB were right in jettisoning the proposed Cooper/Audrey romance (even if some of their - selfish - reasons for it were rather dick-ish) and that the lack of the latter ultimately worked in show's favor (this being contents-wise, not in regards to the ratings and the ensuing abysmal fate of the show);
- that, logically continuing from the previous point, Annie's pairing with Cooper was ideal for what the show was going for - showing the protagonist's vulnerability and ultimately fateful lack of judgement - AND it achieved it without succumbing to downright tastelesness as it would were Audrey in Annie's place;
- that Windom Earle was simply a marvelous nemesis to the main protagonist and that his arc, while not as strong as Laura Palmer's, more than holds its own during the time when the show was generally thought to be in crisis;
- that Dennis/Denise Bryson is way overrated character;
- that Andy and Lucy are way overrated characters - they aren't as bad as some of other goofy elements of the show and are absolutely amusing at times, but there's just too much of them (the same goes for Dick Tremayne);
- that the dreaded James & Evelyn subplot is not THAT bad as it contains quite a bit of intrigue, mysteriousness and tension, though a really weak climax ultimately botches it;
- that James is definitely not as poor charcater as a number of fans seems to think he is and is, for his own reasons, at least as strong as Bobby Briggs;
- that the infamous Josie-in-the-doorknob sequence is seriously powerful stuff, a great way to conclude that episode, tremendously creepy and totally in accordance with the best of what the show's known for;
- that there's nothing wrong with Michael Ontkean's acting and that his oft-hinted-at woodenness, clumsiness and awkwardness totally works for the character he's portraying - the same goes for Heather Graham's Annie Blackburn ...

So know you know. I'm running for cover :)
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

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You bring up multiple divisive points, but for now I will focus on something that I have mixed feelings about and would like to hear your and other people's thoughts on.
FrightNight wrote: - that Dennis/Denise Bryson is way overrated character;
I am not a big fan of the very dated jokes about her which also threaten to turn her into an tasteless stereotype, but feel that she had both good chemistry with both Cooper and briefly with Audrey. In a show where a lot of character's are really out-of-touch with their emotions I found her plain-spoken earthy pep-talks refreshing. Why over-rated? Is it the politics or the fact that she's on the threshold of being a bad novelty character that simply exists to joke and be joked about? Or a problem with the more serious scenes? I ask because I think she has a lot of potential as a character and wonder if you agree- (bad writing VS the character in and of herself)

As for the politics of the character's identity (which I don't think you were commenting on but is still a contentious issue that I would like hear some other opinions on:

I love how Lynch explores things like adultery, changeability of love, sexual/gender mores in all his work, no less than in the soap-opera Twin Peaks which is able to explore relationships over time in a way a two hour film cannot. There are a lot of folks in toxic marriages or relationships partly based on lies and secrets in Twin Peaks, almost every traditional married couple, and than you have this contrasted world of brothels, the Pink Room, Flesh magazine what with its transvestite ads, BDSM ect. (Josie's problematic role as Oriental Seductress and the absurdly sexualized assassin that goes after Truman are other examples of the criminal world being portrayed as erotically threatening).These two worlds of problematic traditional marriages with wholesome fronts and the outlet world of "alternative" fantasies with criminal fronts kind of oppose but also feed off of and mirror each other in an interesting way, I'm still not sure what Lynch is trying to say with that duality.

Denise is a character that, in a manner, kind of broke a few traditional conventions but was also associated with the world of Daylight and Law which doesn't happen too often in Lynch works, or television and film in the early 90s, and I hope she has the potential of being a more nuanced character in the upcoming season that helps breakdown the above mentioned thematic duality.

Sidenote:
FrightNight wrote: - that Andy and Lucy are way overrated characters - they aren't as bad as some of other goofy elements of the show and are absolutely amusing at times, but there's just too much of them (the same goes for Dick Tremayne);
Agreed ,except I indiscriminately love Lucy's delivery, expressions, mannerisms. I don't know if this is controversial but the wine-testing sequence with Dick, Andy and Lucy is possibly the funniest scene in the entire show IMO.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

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I wasn't a huge fan of Denise when the show first aired. I felt she was yet another example of the forced "weirdness" of mid-Season Two, but over the years I've really come to appreciate the character and now consider her one of the highlights of that period of the show. Sure, they make a few jokes about her that we now recognize as tasteless, but it's important to remember just how ahead of the curve the show was in presenting a trans character in a (mostly) non-judgemental way. One thing I really like is the way they use Denise to give us a look at another side of Cooper. After being momentarily flummoxed by Agent Bryson's "transformation", Cooper immediately becomes accepting and supportive. What we see is that Coop is basically a decent guy who likes seeing people find happiness in their true selves. Denise is a great character on her own, but she also makes me love Cooper even more. Can't wait to see what Lynch and Frost do with Agent Bryson.

As for Andy and Lucy, sure they were comic relief, but what delightful comic relief! I also think Lucy is too adorable for words.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Post by squealy »

Denise was fun, but if she had been played by some no name actor rather than David Duchovny I very much doubt we would be seeing her again.
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