The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

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FrightNight
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby FrightNight » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:17 am

laughingpinecone wrote:! The soap opera format, by its very nature, is the go-to option for stories that try to go on forever, like the show was trying to do back in the day. But now? You wanna finish something, you start making stuff converge. It's not rocket science.



Who says they want to finish it??? That's according to the swan-song theory, I guess, but as far as we know (ie. it has not been confirmed - nor disputed, to be fair - by anyone official or in any way Season 3-relevant, not by Showtime, not by Frost and certainly not by Lynch), all that kind of talk amounts to may very well be just fanboy baloney.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby FrightNight » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:21 am

laughingpinecone wrote:
16 1-hour episodes would already be longer than season 2!


Are these numbers coming from some important source (and in case they are, have I missed some sort of official (or at lest half-official) statement/announcement as to the length of the new season and its episodes?) or are you just speculating?
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby laughingpinecone » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:38 am

FrightNight wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:
16 1-hour episodes would already be longer than season 2!


Are these numbers coming from some important source (and in case they are, have I missed some sort of official (or at lest half-official) statement/announcement as to the length of the new season and its episodes?) or are you just speculating?

16 is simply the lowest number that multiplied by 60 gives a higher result than s2's 23*40... iirc the latest speculation were in the 15-18 range or even higher, so we are in s2 length's ballpark or very easily longer.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby LostInTheMovies » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:10 am

David Locke wrote:Not sure if this is that controversial, but on this last re-watch I really came to resent Andy and, to a lesser extent, Lucy. Andy is first introduced as a somewhat interesting character, a big softie and a rare policeman with heart on sleeve; why the writers chose to make him progressively dumber and have him babble on about his "sperms" is just as beyond my imagination as why they chose to send Nadine back to school.


And I think unfortunately Lynch deserves some of the blame here. While he directs Andy as a soft-hearted (but not necessarily soft-headed) guy in the pilot on every episode he directs after that he relishes making him an absolute dunce. I think episodes 8 & 9 in particular escalates that portrayal - I'd go so far as to say the writers actually kind of reign in Andy's stupidity compared to how Lynch prefers it. It's generally funnier when Lynch does it, and I wouldn't want to depart with some of those scenes (the scotch tape bit is particularly amusing) but it's part of an overall development I find slightly disappointing. It definitely plays to a particular talent of Goaz's which is probably why they ran with it. But the idea of a sensitive deputy is ultimately more compelling than a stupid one.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby LostInTheMovies » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:16 am

FrightNight wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:! The soap opera format, by its very nature, is the go-to option for stories that try to go on forever, like the show was trying to do back in the day. But now? You wanna finish something, you start making stuff converge. It's not rocket science.



Who says they want to finish it??? That's according to the swan-song theory, I guess, but as far as we know (ie. it has not been confirmed - nor disputed, to be fair - by anyone official or in any way Season 3-relevant, not by Showtime, not by Frost and certainly not by Lynch), all that kind of talk amounts to may very well be just fanboy baloney.


I don't want to get into the "good" vs. "bad" argument again (we'll save that for when the new series actually airs, and we have a better idea of what it entails and whether it would benefit from more).

However, if we collect the evidence objectively much, much more suggests there are no plans for further seasons. I am not saying Lynch/Frost are categorically opposed to more, just that it clearly isn't something they are at all focused on, and that they - and Showtime - have repeatedly emphasized the "limited series"/"all one movie" approach to the new material.

So could it continue? Yes. I don't think either Lynch or Frost has publicly ruled out that possibility. Is there more evidence suggesting it won't than it will? Yeah, there is.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby laughingpinecone » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:33 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:
FrightNight wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:! The soap opera format, by its very nature, is the go-to option for stories that try to go on forever, like the show was trying to do back in the day. But now? You wanna finish something, you start making stuff converge. It's not rocket science.



Who says they want to finish it??? That's according to the swan-song theory, I guess, but as far as we know (ie. it has not been confirmed - nor disputed, to be fair - by anyone official or in any way Season 3-relevant, not by Showtime, not by Frost and certainly not by Lynch), all that kind of talk amounts to may very well be just fanboy baloney.


I don't want to get into the "good" vs. "bad" argument again (we'll save that for when the new series actually airs, and we have a better idea of what it entails and whether it would benefit from more).

However, if we collect the evidence objectively much, much more suggests there are no plans for further seasons. I am not saying Lynch/Frost are categorically opposed to more, just that it clearly isn't something they are at all focused on, and that they - and Showtime - have repeatedly emphasized the "limited series"/"all one movie" approach to the new material.

So could it continue? Yes. I don't think either Lynch or Frost has publicly ruled out that possibility. Is there more evidence suggesting it won't than it will? Yeah, there is.

Thanks.
Additionally, given the emphasis on Coop and the number of retired actors exceptionally coming out of the woodwork (I've only recently learned that Beymer was also nominally retired since 2008! Go figure) (and "uuuh sorry guys we sort of lost McGill. where is he" will forever be the funniest bit of pre-production trivia), it looks very very very likely that this is it for the majority of these characters and their storylines. So it's functionally an ending, regardless of the possibility of more stories in the town of Twin Peaks and its wider setting.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby David Locke » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:42 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:
David Locke wrote:Not sure if this is that controversial, but on this last re-watch I really came to resent Andy and, to a lesser extent, Lucy. Andy is first introduced as a somewhat interesting character, a big softie and a rare policeman with heart on sleeve; why the writers chose to make him progressively dumber and have him babble on about his "sperms" is just as beyond my imagination as why they chose to send Nadine back to school.


And I think unfortunately Lynch deserves some of the blame here. While he directs Andy as a soft-hearted (but not necessarily soft-headed) guy in the pilot on every episode he directs after that he relishes making him an absolute dunce. I think episodes 8 & 9 in particular escalates that portrayal - I'd go so far as to say the writers actually kind of reign in Andy's stupidity compared to how Lynch prefers it. It's generally funnier when Lynch does it, and I wouldn't want to depart with some of those scenes (the scotch tape bit is particularly amusing) but it's part of an overall development I find slightly disappointing. It definitely plays to a particular talent of Goaz's which is probably why they ran with it. But the idea of a sensitive deputy is ultimately more compelling than a stupid one.

Yeah, this reminds me of that discussion in the other thread recently about Lynch's wacky sense of humor actually being part of the show's aimless wackiness in S2, instead of all that being something completely outside of Lynch's sensibilities. Most of his material in that vein, characters like Andy and whatnot, appear to be confined to that weird stretch of 1988-1991 or so, though, when he was on top of the world.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:36 am

David Locke wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:
David Locke wrote:Not sure if this is that controversial, but on this last re-watch I really came to resent Andy and, to a lesser extent, Lucy. Andy is first introduced as a somewhat interesting character, a big softie and a rare policeman with heart on sleeve; why the writers chose to make him progressively dumber and have him babble on about his "sperms" is just as beyond my imagination as why they chose to send Nadine back to school.


And I think unfortunately Lynch deserves some of the blame here. While he directs Andy as a soft-hearted (but not necessarily soft-headed) guy in the pilot on every episode he directs after that he relishes making him an absolute dunce. I think episodes 8 & 9 in particular escalates that portrayal - I'd go so far as to say the writers actually kind of reign in Andy's stupidity compared to how Lynch prefers it. It's generally funnier when Lynch does it, and I wouldn't want to depart with some of those scenes (the scotch tape bit is particularly amusing) but it's part of an overall development I find slightly disappointing. It definitely plays to a particular talent of Goaz's which is probably why they ran with it. But the idea of a sensitive deputy is ultimately more compelling than a stupid one.

Yeah, this reminds me of that discussion in the other thread recently about Lynch's wacky sense of humor actually being part of the show's aimless wackiness in S2, instead of all that being something completely outside of Lynch's sensibilities. Most of his material in that vein, characters like Andy and whatnot, appear to be confined to that weird stretch of 1988-1991 or so, though, when he was on top of the world.


Interesting point. I'd argue the Dumbland has some elements of that style, but it's obviously also its own weird thing in the Lynchian canon.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby David Locke » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:55 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
David Locke wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:
And I think unfortunately Lynch deserves some of the blame here. While he directs Andy as a soft-hearted (but not necessarily soft-headed) guy in the pilot on every episode he directs after that he relishes making him an absolute dunce. I think episodes 8 & 9 in particular escalates that portrayal - I'd go so far as to say the writers actually kind of reign in Andy's stupidity compared to how Lynch prefers it. It's generally funnier when Lynch does it, and I wouldn't want to depart with some of those scenes (the scotch tape bit is particularly amusing) but it's part of an overall development I find slightly disappointing. It definitely plays to a particular talent of Goaz's which is probably why they ran with it. But the idea of a sensitive deputy is ultimately more compelling than a stupid one.

Yeah, this reminds me of that discussion in the other thread recently about Lynch's wacky sense of humor actually being part of the show's aimless wackiness in S2, instead of all that being something completely outside of Lynch's sensibilities. Most of his material in that vein, characters like Andy and whatnot, appear to be confined to that weird stretch of 1988-1991 or so, though, when he was on top of the world.


Interesting point. I'd argue the Dumbland has some elements of that style, but it's obviously also its own weird thing in the Lynchian canon.

Yeah, it definitely is visible pretty much throughout his whole filmography to some extent. Incidentally, I think one of the reasons why Lost Highway is one of my favorite Lynch films is it probably has the least of that wacky humor in it of all (in fact probably the least humor of any kind). FWWM is pretty low on 'wackiness,' too, and rightly so; no wonder that LH and it are probably the most 'horror film'-esque Lynches.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:23 pm

David Locke wrote:Yeah, it definitely is visible pretty much throughout his whole filmography to some extent. Incidentally, I think one of the reasons why Lost Highway is one of my favorite Lynch films is it probably has the least of that wacky humor in it of all (in fact probably the least humor of any kind). FWWM is pretty low on 'wackiness,' too, and rightly so; no wonder that LH and it are probably the most 'horror film'-esque Lynches.


I don't know; I find the first Mystery Man scene hysterically funny while also being one of the creepiest things Lynch has ever directed. That's the kind of Lynchian comedy I love - when you're not sure if you want to laugh or crawl out of your skin and hide behind the couch.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby FrightNight » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:44 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:
FrightNight wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:! The soap opera format, by its very nature, is the go-to option for stories that try to go on forever, like the show was trying to do back in the day. But now? You wanna finish something, you start making stuff converge. It's not rocket science.



Who says they want to finish it??? That's according to the swan-song theory, I guess, but as far as we know (ie. it has not been confirmed - nor disputed, to be fair - by anyone official or in any way Season 3-relevant, not by Showtime, not by Frost and certainly not by Lynch), all that kind of talk amounts to may very well be just fanboy baloney.



However, if we collect the evidence objectively much, much more suggests there are no plans for further seasons. I am not saying Lynch/Frost are categorically opposed to more, just that it clearly isn't something they are at all focused on, and that they - and Showtime - have repeatedly emphasized the "limited series"/"all one movie" approach to the new material.

So could it continue? Yes. I don't think either Lynch or Frost has publicly ruled out that possibility. Is there more evidence suggesting it won't than it will? Yeah, there is.



No offense, but if we took all that was publically presented from the makers of TP about the series' possible continuation pre-2014 as objective proof, we wouldn't be talking about what the third season of TP WILL be about for more than a year and a half now. Which is to say, there's absolutely no way of telling what Lynch & Frost are focused on, not now or at any given time (well, except for that which is publically announced, and they are certainly very careful about what info they are willing to pass on, given we still, after all this time, basically don't know jacks**t about just what these new episodes will contain). I mean, we had absolutely no idea whatsoever that the two of them were engaged in plotting the show's continuation for friggin' three years before it was announced - if I remember correctly, Frost himself dismissed the rumors about the TP stirrings ("Dear Internet, you're very good at spreading rumors, truth is more valuable and much harder to come by" ...) the year before the one when the announcement happened (they were certainly already at the writing table at that point, if the chronology of the project they revealed is truthful) ... So, for all we know, they may be busy devising future seasons as we speak ...
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:41 am

"No offense, but if we took all that was publically presented from the makers of TP about the series' possible continuation pre-2014 as objective proof, we wouldn't be talking about what the third season of TP WILL be about for more than a year and a half now."

Yes, that was a big surprise. But any and all future surprises aren't necessarily true because of it.

If you're trying to get me to say it's "possible", sure, it's possible. What I think is almost impossible is the idea that they would produce later seasons at a lower level of commitment/effort than they are now. Which means he writes/directs everything with ample budgets and lengthy shooting schedules. Possible, but a long shot on the face of it, and not something anyone involved has suggested. Which could mean it's secret, or could mean it's not happening. Ockam's razor was wrong about the new season; it doesn't follow that it's always wrong about everything Twin Peaks from now on.

You want further seasons of Twin Peaks, but it's not likely, and if Lynch/Frost do go that route it will be in spite of the odds not because of them. But I'm sure you have a Han Solo quote in mind right about now. ;)
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:52 am

And pre-emptively, to re-iterate, I don't think we'll see any more non-Lynch-directed episodes because:

1) Lynch has always seemed unhappy that he had to let others direct Twin Peaks, respectful as he is of their work. "It's not how you'd do it..." etc

2) Apparently one of the first things he said to Frost when the idea came up was "I think I wanna direct them all" (although Nivens claims that Showtime persuaded him to do this in another interview).

3) Lynch doesn't halfway things. Look how he's doing the new season.

4) The new season has been shot like a movie, setting a template that isn't well-serviced by multiple directors.

5) Lynch used multiple directors in 1990 because he had to if he wanted to create a viable show, given the realities of network production. He doesn't have to now so I can't imagine why he would do so again, at least with material this close to his heart, except for "ease" and he's never been one do things the easy way.

So I will go out on a limb, make a gentleman's bet (or even a real bet!) if you want, that Lynch never signs off on others directing Twin Peaks. Any future episodes will necessarily be directed by him.
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:54 am

(Also, let's move any future conversation in this topic to the appropriate thread, since it's been covered as nauseum and would be more relevant there, however controversial it is too!)
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Re: The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

Postby cowwithfivelegs » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:27 pm

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