mtwentz wrote:
However, I do not believe there is anything wrong with the Roadhouse scene.
Cooper saying that Leland should be Ben's attorney and Leland nonchalantly going along with it is totally asinine, making everybody in that room - especially BOB - to behave subsequently like total idiots. Probably the biggest mistake in an episode with its fair share of problems.
Not really Leland (Bob) was supremely confident he wasn't getting caught. Actually it was quite a brilliant move by Cooper and clever by the writers.
Clever by the writers? How is it clever for the investigator to recommend a lawyer - which isn't the job of the investigator at all - and for the lawyer to immediately accept this, considering the circumstances? How is it clever that Truman and Hawk don't even have a WTF reaction to this, let alone thousand other questions, since the lawyer is on trial for confessed murder, making him totally ineligible for this, not to mention the fact that the crime in question is the rape and murder of his daughter? How is it clever that the only reaction to this whole thing that Leland has is that "he'll begin bail proceedings as soon as possible"? How is it clever for Truman to just get a whisper from Cooper that they should push Leland in the interrogation cell, again without any questions, especially after Truman was passionately convinced that Ben is the one, due to "hard evidence" and being tired of the "mumbo jumbo"? Sure, I guess this can be explained with a bunch of off-screen moments between the characters, but all of this is absolutely crucial in the wrap-up of the storyline. This is the main problem with the episode - it is bizarrely rushed, making the characters look silly in the process.
The situation doesn't make BOB fearless, it just makes him plain stupid. Before he was methodical and calculating about his crimes - now he's just acting like a buffoon. He wouldn't be suspicious of Cooper, the compassionate detective, who would put the father of the murdered child through this ordeal, not to mention the fact he has no authority over these decisions?
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djerdap wrote:
Cooper saying that Leland should be Ben's attorney and Leland nonchalantly going along with it is totally asinine, making everybody in that room - especially BOB - to behave subsequently like total idiots. Probably the biggest mistake in an episode with its fair share of problems.
Not really Leland (Bob) was supremely confident he wasn't getting caught. Actually it was quite a brilliant move by Cooper and clever by the writers.
Clever by the writers? How is it clever for the investigator to recommend a lawyer - which isn't the job of the investigator at all - and for the lawyer to immediately accept this, considering the circumstances? How is it clever that Truman and Hawk don't even have a WTF reaction to this, let alone thousand other questions, since the lawyer is on trial for confessed murder, making him totally ineligible for this, not to mention the fact that the crime in question is the rape and murder of his daughter? How is it clever that the only reaction to this whole thing that Leland has is that "he'll begin bail proceedings as soon as possible"? How is it clever for Truman to just get a whisper from Cooper that they should push Leland in the interrogation cell, again without any questions, especially after Truman was passionately convinced that Ben is the one, due to "hard evidence" and being tired of the "mumbo jumbo"? Sure, I guess this can be explained with a bunch of off-screen moments between the characters, but all of this is absolutely crucial in the wrap-up of the storyline. This is the main problem with the episode - it is bizarrely rushed, making the characters look silly in the process.
The situation doesn't make BOB fearless, it just makes him plain stupid. Before he was methodical and calculating about his crimes - now he's just acting like a buffoon. He wouldn't be suspicious of Cooper, the compassionate detective, who would put the father of the murdered child through this ordeal, not to mention the fact he has no authority over these decisions?
Did you actually watch the show or just see one episode and make assumptions? Seriously. The whole point of Cooper and the Twin Peaks police department is that they lead on intuition a lot. Truman is more straightforward but he's seen and can feel that Cooper has a deeper intuition than most. Cooper doing things in the nature he did was lead to set Leland up for a trap. He knew he would blindly follow as he could tell how confident Leland was at not getting caught. If he arrested him right then and there Bob could've harmed more people and maybe even escaped his vessel. He ended up escaping anyway but Coopers concerns were just. Its a TV show dude. It doesn't have to be 100% true to real life... Also this is the same town that used a nightclub that had illicit activity going on in it as a court house. This was likely a budget concern by producers but it worked to show how small and backwoods the town of Twin Peaks is so simple logic like Leland can't be an attorney as he's facing trial for another murder isn't really that big of an issue. And again Leland obviously is starting to go off the rails as Bob. Just earlier in the episode he ran head on into a police truck with the dead body in the damn trunk! He clearly thinks he's invincible at this point. Also maybe Bob was done with Leland anyway. Maybe he didn't care if he got caught because he secretly really wanted Cooper as his vessel and knew this was the path to get him.
WhiteLodge90 wrote:
Not really Leland (Bob) was supremely confident he wasn't getting caught. Actually it was quite a brilliant move by Cooper and clever by the writers.
Clever by the writers? How is it clever for the investigator to recommend a lawyer - which isn't the job of the investigator at all - and for the lawyer to immediately accept this, considering the circumstances? How is it clever that Truman and Hawk don't even have a WTF reaction to this, let alone thousand other questions, since the lawyer is on trial for confessed murder, making him totally ineligible for this, not to mention the fact that the crime in question is the rape and murder of his daughter? How is it clever that the only reaction to this whole thing that Leland has is that "he'll begin bail proceedings as soon as possible"? How is it clever for Truman to just get a whisper from Cooper that they should push Leland in the interrogation cell, again without any questions, especially after Truman was passionately convinced that Ben is the one, due to "hard evidence" and being tired of the "mumbo jumbo"? Sure, I guess this can be explained with a bunch of off-screen moments between the characters, but all of this is absolutely crucial in the wrap-up of the storyline. This is the main problem with the episode - it is bizarrely rushed, making the characters look silly in the process.
The situation doesn't make BOB fearless, it just makes him plain stupid. Before he was methodical and calculating about his crimes - now he's just acting like a buffoon. He wouldn't be suspicious of Cooper, the compassionate detective, who would put the father of the murdered child through this ordeal, not to mention the fact he has no authority over these decisions?
Did you actually watch the show or just see one episode and make assumptions? Seriously. The whole point of Cooper and the Twin Peaks police department is that they lead on intuition a lot. Truman is more straightforward but he's seen and can feel that Cooper has a deeper intuition than most. Its a TV show dude. It doesn't have to be 100% true to real life... Also this is the same town that used a nightclub that had illicit actively going on in it as a court house. This was likely a budget concern by producers but it worked to show how small and backwoods the town of Twin Peaks is so simple logic like Leland can't be an attorney as he's facing trial for another murder isn't really that big of an issue. And again Leland obviously is starting to go off the rails as Bob. Just earlier in the episode he ran head on into a police truck with the dead body in the damn trunk! He clearly thinks he's invincible at this point. Also maybe Bob was done with Leland anyway. Maybe he didn't care if he got caught because he secretly really wanted Cooper as his vessel and knew this was the path to get him.
Oh. So the answer to all the questions raised is: "It's a TV show dude." With that kind of argument, no wonder you find the writing clever.
It's not a question of logistics and "Cooper being intuitive" doesn't mean other characters will take everything for granted. It's a question of characters acting in a believable manner, otherwise known as good storytelling. But to each his own.
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djerdap wrote:
Clever by the writers? How is it clever for the investigator to recommend a lawyer - which isn't the job of the investigator at all - and for the lawyer to immediately accept this, considering the circumstances? How is it clever that Truman and Hawk don't even have a WTF reaction to this, let alone thousand other questions, since the lawyer is on trial for confessed murder, making him totally ineligible for this, not to mention the fact that the crime in question is the rape and murder of his daughter? How is it clever that the only reaction to this whole thing that Leland has is that "he'll begin bail proceedings as soon as possible"? How is it clever for Truman to just get a whisper from Cooper that they should push Leland in the interrogation cell, again without any questions, especially after Truman was passionately convinced that Ben is the one, due to "hard evidence" and being tired of the "mumbo jumbo"? Sure, I guess this can be explained with a bunch of off-screen moments between the characters, but all of this is absolutely crucial in the wrap-up of the storyline. This is the main problem with the episode - it is bizarrely rushed, making the characters look silly in the process.
The situation doesn't make BOB fearless, it just makes him plain stupid. Before he was methodical and calculating about his crimes - now he's just acting like a buffoon. He wouldn't be suspicious of Cooper, the compassionate detective, who would put the father of the murdered child through this ordeal, not to mention the fact he has no authority over these decisions?
Did you actually watch the show or just see one episode and make assumptions? Seriously. The whole point of Cooper and the Twin Peaks police department is that they lead on intuition a lot. Truman is more straightforward but he's seen and can feel that Cooper has a deeper intuition than most. Its a TV show dude. It doesn't have to be 100% true to real life... Also this is the same town that used a nightclub that had illicit actively going on in it as a court house. This was likely a budget concern by producers but it worked to show how small and backwoods the town of Twin Peaks is so simple logic like Leland can't be an attorney as he's facing trial for another murder isn't really that big of an issue. And again Leland obviously is starting to go off the rails as Bob. Just earlier in the episode he ran head on into a police truck with the dead body in the damn trunk! He clearly thinks he's invincible at this point. Also maybe Bob was done with Leland anyway. Maybe he didn't care if he got caught because he secretly really wanted Cooper as his vessel and knew this was the path to get him.
Oh. So the answer to all the questions raised is: "It's a TV show dude." With that kind of argument, no wonder you find the writing clever.
It's not a question of logistics and "Cooper being intuitive" doesn't mean other characters will take everything for granted. It's a question of characters acting in a believable manner, otherwise known as good storytelling. But to each his own.
No I just think your questions about the points you made are weak because the kind of show Twin Peaks is. Things aren't black and white. They're grey. You have to have suspension of disbelief when watching a show like this. It's not Breaking Bad (An excellent show) Where they follow everything by the book to realism. Some things in this show are weak and lazy by the writers but nothing to do with the reveal and capture of Laura Palmer's killer was sloppily done. I don't think the characters took anything for granted at all. I fully believe Hawk for instance knew Cooper had a plan. He was the only one who could really read him. Truman I think at this point was just in a stupor. Maybe that was a weak point on the writers but I think it makes sense for the character he trusts Cooper with all his heart. He's proven to be loyal to him and not judge his small town quirks. The others there are just devices to help reveal the killer so their opinions on the subject don't matter.
I wouldn't have minded Truman going along with Cooper's intuition-derived hallway whisper provided he hadn't taken that rebellious stand one episode/day prior ("I've had enough of the dreams, the visions, the dwarfs, the giants..."). Truman's declaration in that scene is way too big of a character moment for it to be completely ignored in the next episode.
Every time I go back and re-watch Episode 16, I'm always struck by how crazy rushed it seems. For a show that reveled in a more-or-less leisurely pace for the first and the beginning of the second season, there is something off about the 'race to the finish' feel of that episode. From Cooper asking for '24 hours' to finish the case, to Harold's suicide note tying into Pierre Tremond's quote tying into Laura's diary tying into Cooper's dream, and finally to Cooper suddenly having literal explanations for every.line.of.dialogue in his dream, there's a decidedly un-Peaksy feeling of every loose end being tied up. I still love the episode for Wise's performance, and the ending scene with Cooper and co. discussing the nature of BOB (still one of my favorite scenes in the whole series), but I don't think the episode holds up very well.
Which brings me to another point. I can understand the rush to reveal the killer early in the second season TO THE AUDIENCE (what with network pressure and the national zeitgeist dying down), but why did they think they needed to wrap up the entire arc a mere two episodes later? They could have easily stretched this out for another few episodes. Maybe Cooper deduces Leland is the killer, but Truman doesn't support him and there's an ACTUAL split between our two heroes? Maybe Cooper is suspended from the FBI BEFORE Leland is arrested and therefore can't officially continue in an investigative capacity to bring him in? Maybe there's an entire episode of Leland in custody before he dies where we get more insight into BOB's character?
Anyway, all water under the bridge now, but it's interesting to speculate what might have been.
dkenny78 wrote:Which brings me to another point. I can understand the rush to reveal the killer early in the second season TO THE AUDIENCE (what with network pressure and the national zeitgeist dying down), but why did they think they needed to wrap up the entire arc a mere two episodes later?
I've always wondered exactly how (and why) the reveal-and-resolution timeline was planned out. Was there a network mandate to end it by a certain point in the season? It all timed out nicely to November sweeps. I believe Brad's book reveals that Mark was in New Orleans scouting locations very shortly after this episode. I can't help but wonder if his Storyville plans caused him to wrap up the Laura arc more quickly before he left. (The 2015 concluding volume of his series of children's adventure books has also been criticized for having a rushed and unsatisfying resolution -- possibly because he had turned his attention to TP!)
The Coop/Harry rift is really interesting and not something I've seen discussed before. It's a dynamic Mark and the writers seem to have been deliberately layering in: there's a similar confrontation at Harold's house in the Episode 14 script which DKL either didn't shoot or cut. I'm pretty sure there's also another such scene in an earlier script which also got cut. It's truly weird that Frost and Peyton went from deliberately building toward a conflict between the two to suddenly abandoning and reversing the dynamic completely over the span of one script/episode. That indicates to me that having Episode 16 be the resolution was a fairly last-minute decision.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dkenny78 wrote:I wouldn't have minded Truman going along with Cooper's intuition-derived hallway whisper provided he hadn't taken that rebellious stand one episode/day prior ("I've had enough of the dreams, the visions, the dwarfs, the giants..."). Truman's declaration in that scene is way too big of a character moment for it to be completely ignored in the next episode.
Every time I go back and re-watch Episode 16, I'm always struck by how crazy rushed it seems. For a show that reveled in a more-or-less leisurely pace for the first and the beginning of the second season, there is something off about the 'race to the finish' feel of that episode. From Cooper asking for '24 hours' to finish the case, to Harold's suicide note tying into Pierre Tremond's quote tying into Laura's diary tying into Cooper's dream, and finally to Cooper suddenly having literal explanations for every.line.of.dialogue in his dream, there's a decidedly un-Peaksy feeling of every loose end being tied up. I still love the episode for Wise's performance, and the ending scene with Cooper and co. discussing the nature of BOB (still one of my favorite scenes in the whole series), but I don't think the episode holds up very well.
Which brings me to another point. I can understand the rush to reveal the killer early in the second season TO THE AUDIENCE (what with network pressure and the national zeitgeist dying down), but why did they think they needed to wrap up the entire arc a mere two episodes later? They could have easily stretched this out for another few episodes. Maybe Cooper deduces Leland is the killer, but Truman doesn't support him and there's an ACTUAL split between our two heroes? Maybe Cooper is suspended from the FBI BEFORE Leland is arrested and therefore can't officially continue in an investigative capacity to bring him in? Maybe there's an entire episode of Leland in custody before he dies where we get more insight into BOB's character?
Anyway, all water under the bridge now, but it's interesting to speculate what might have been.
Truman finds out in this episode I believe that Ben is not the killer. I think at this point he likely realizes that Cooper may be their only hope to solving this and so he is willing to follow along again. I liked how everything tied in. Could they have stretched it out an episode or two? Yeah I could see them doing that for one less post reveal episode getting cut. But I heavily surmise either it was straight from ABC or Lynch/Frost to wrap this up as quick as possible and move on to more story lines. Maybe Lynch/Frost just wanted to get it over with as they never wanted to reveal it anyway. Who knows. But I personally liked how everything fell into place. Like fate and destiny coming into line to help Cooper solve the case.
Those seeds were set in episode 1 of season 2. One that Lynch himself directed. What's more creepy and cool is if the Giant is in fact evil. (Which I think is up for debate) then maybe this whole solving of the murder was meant to lead to Cooper entering the black lodge so he could fulfill the evil's destiny and become Bob.
Are you guys just now realizing that elements of Cooper's investigation and its resolution do not (and do not have to) make real-world sense and do not follow standard gritty TV police procedure
I knew that when I was 9 years old and I was cool with it
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
I don't think anyone is just now realizing that Cooper is using unconventional investigative techniques, the conversation is about a specific scene and is multilayered and takes into account what is going on in the scene and also the writers' task of bringing Cooper to some logical deduction that Leland was the killer in a short period of time - which we know was the case from multiple interviews with lynch and frost, (see their forewords to the Secret Diary of Laura Palmer for one specific statement of many on the subject).
In any case we all love this show and should be cool to each other.
mtsi wrote:To me, Leland/BOB was wreckless after Maddie's murder because he was post orgasmic/euphoric.
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Then why wouldn't he be after killing Laura? Because he had to hand over the Garmonbozia?
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
