Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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claaa7
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:17 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:MacLachlan says that Richard is a different character than our Cooper: http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/twin-pe ... 202547022/


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hmm, the way i read it he says the opposite?

"Did you feel that Richard, in the finale, was a distinct character of his own, or just Cooper with a different name?"

He was… different. The way it was described to me, he’s just a little harder. So it was another variation, sort of a subtle variation obviously, compared to the other two, but a subtle variation of Cooper. And so that was that last hour, Watching him navigate that.
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docLEXfisti
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby docLEXfisti » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:19 pm

This is the last flickering shot, after Carrie hears Sara's "Laura" scream - I don't see anything.
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BHell
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby BHell » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:23 pm

Drgarage wrote:Still, Mrs. Chalfont always seems to mean well, doesn't she? As in, her name means well.


"This is the water. And this is the well. Drink full and descend."

Well, this may as well be the well. If her name means well, maybe she does not mean well at all. So: What is the water?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Drgarage » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:25 pm

BHell wrote:
Drgarage wrote:Still, Mrs. Chalfont always seems to mean well, doesn't she? As in, her name means well.


"This is the water. And this is the well. Drink full and descend."

Well, this may as well be the well. If her name means well, maybe she does not mean well at all. So: What is the water?

Garmonbozia?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby BHell » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:32 pm

Drgarage wrote:Garmonbozia?


Possible. But then: Why would Mrs. Chalfont reject creamed corn? The well rejecting the water?
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powerleftist
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby powerleftist » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:42 pm

You people are thinking more about this show than Lynch himself in all his life. The person who cares less about how all of this makes sense or ties together is the man himself. The game is over.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Drgarage » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:50 pm

BHell wrote:
Drgarage wrote:Garmonbozia?


Possible. But then: Why would Mrs. Chalfont reject creamed corn? The well rejecting the water?

That was my thought.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby map_project » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:27 am

Those sounds the fireman told Cooper to listen to occur a couple of times during the last minutes of part 18 (excluding the credits). Anybody else hearing them?

The most discernible occurrence happens right before Cooper takes a couple of steps forward in a strange manner (in a Dougie-esque manner some have said) on the street in front of the Palmer house.
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Novalis
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby Novalis » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:28 am

Drgarage wrote:More interesting is the etymology back through challenge, the chal part of which is believed to come from calumny, which is all about trickery and deception. This (probably dubious) article even finds both a Latin and a Celtic root, both of which are all about trickery, confusion, and bewichment.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?ter ... in_frame=0



Calumny is an old legal term for false accusation or slander. Recent scholarship on Kafka has reached the conclusion that the K in Joseph K does not stand for Kafka, as many had assumed, but Kaluminator. In ancient Roman Law (which Kafka studied),

[b]ecause there was no Public Prosecutor it was felt necessary to dissuade people from overloading the judicial system with frivolous cases, and so as a deterrent a Prosecutor who failed to make his case could be branded on the forehead with the letter K for Kaluminator, or False Accuser, which could in effect ruin his career.


I don't for one second think any of this consciously motivated the naming of this character, but I think language nonetheless carries unintended or even unconscious signals on a wider, historical and collective level. The Tremonds/Chalfonts are two of my favourite other-realmers in TP. I find them extremely ambiguous, especially the way Pierre/the Grandson presages Harold Smith's suicide note in episode 9 of the original run (J'ai une âme solitaire). This scene, over and above the shenanigans with the creamed corn, is what sets Donna on that fateful path that will ultimately tip Harold over the edge, and so it invites the same kind of questions as are classically asked about the opening act of Macbeth -- supernatural ability or character flaw-as-predetermination?

Anyway, I'm getting carried away from the point here. I think the etymological resonances of 'false accuser' works nicely for Chalfont; bear in mind the scene from FWWM where the Grandson points and speaks 'fell a victim' -- it reeks of an accusatory, or judgement-bearing tone. It hardly need be mentioned that the accuser is one of the epithets of the Christian devil.

The point anyway: Kafka! Lynch likes Kafka. I like Kafka too. His literary expressionism is an interesting way in to viewing Lynch, and they certainly share some aesthetics in their world-building.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby SatisfactionJackson » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:11 am

This was on reddit. Sounds like the most plausible solution off the show:

"Judy steals away Laura when Coop is rescuing her, and Diane and Cooper give chase. The real Diane knows Cooper-- maybe even loves him--and trusts his intuition, so she plunges in with him. They drive 430 miles and enter into Judy's pocket dimension. Here, they seem to be indistinguishable from their Doppelgangers--Diane retains the trauma of her Tulpa (which she sees from the car) and Cooper maintains the steely, frightening drive of Mr. C (further evidenced when Cooper fries the guns. He seems to be threatening the waitress with his posture, and also warns the innocent chef that frying them might end up firing off a bullet and injuring/killing him).
Unable to deal with this (or maybe even stolen away by Judy) Diane "slips" away into Judy's ugly reality and become Linda to Cooper's Richard. Cooper might give up here, as he's once again lost someone he loves in the pursuit of good. But he remembers the giant telling him to remember "Richard and Linda."
The slipperiness of Judy's lair, I think, is mostly meant to disorient or discourage Cooper (or Jeffries, or anyone else who dove in to find her). Hence the motel shifting before and after Diane and Cooper stay. Or Laura being off at work that day. Or her being a murderer in this universe. Or guys pulling guns on him. But Coop reads the clues, beats all of Judy's trials, finds Laura, brings her to the Palmer home where Judy is holed up. The final hurdle for Cooper--beaten, lonely, and exhausted from the very long drive (if he slept, Judy would snatch him too, presumably)--is that Sarah isn't there.
Cooper is almost ready to cave at this point. He's clearly shaken by the defeat. For the first time in this universe, probably in the entire show, he doubts himself, that he's "Special Agent Dale Cooper." Maybe he is Richard after all. Maybe he should just go home and sleep and then slip, like Diane, into his new life.
But instead he remembers the constant question: "Is it future, or is it past?" He, with his impeccable intuition, asks the question, and overcomes Judy again. Maybe it's an answer to a riddle, or maybe it's proof of Cooper's pure and unwavering nature. I tend to believe it's more of the latter, but either way, he doesn't give up and proves he's the hero through and through. This either directly allows or compounds with some sliver of Sarah reaching out to Laura, and Laura suddenly remembers everything. She becomes Laura again. And being Laura, with all she's gone trough, is so horrifying that it causes her to scream in agony. But Judy, regardless, is finally defeated because of her presence.
The endless fields of throbbing power lines we've seen Mr. C following all season go dead, and the electricity finally goes out in the Palmer house.
Which means that the fan stops spinning and hopefully will never start again. "
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby KyleRickards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:41 am

DeepBlueSeed wrote:No sure if this has been mentioned yet (still only got to page 20 because a heavy work schedule), but in part 17 the FWWM Laura screams at what is revealed to have been Cooper. But that can only have happened in a timeline where he saves her. What would she have been screaming at otherwise, given that we don't see anything else around Cooper?


When I rewatched FWWM over the Summer, I assumed it was Leyland hiding in the bushes but we as viewers didn't see him?


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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby KyleRickards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:43 am

TheGum wrote:"Cooper, you may be fearless in this world, but there are other worlds..."



Other observations-

I love the concept that just because he has BOB on his side, Mr. C has the same hubris and weaknesses when confronting the lodge and lodge rules. He is in over his head just as much as Cooper is.

The jumping man races down the stairs after Cooper enters the Dutchmans. Why? To warn Sarah? Judy?

Mr. C does not put soil from around Jack Rabbit's palace in his pocket. Perhaps this is why he arrives into the white lodge imprisoned and the fireman is able to redirect him from the Palmer house, where he ostensibly would have found Judy, to the Sherriff station, where the right people are prepared to easily dispatch him and BOB. His confusion and lack of understanding are rather apparent. This is a direct parallel to Cooper's experience in the Lodge in episode 29- he plows forward in spite of the fact that he has no idea what he is supposed to be doing there.


I like the soil theory and why BadCoop didn't meet Judy. I'm going with that idea now!

Also, if BadCoop had met Judy, what did he expect to happen? That wouldn't have gone well would it?


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lotjx2
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:48 am

Dale creates a world where the mystery is not who killed Laura Palmer, but Where is Laura Palmer? Laura is still a member of that world, her missing is not going to change people's names. What you have is a world where I believe Ronetta is killed instead of Laura. Leland kills her and plants the B letter that sends Dale to Twin Peaks. Everything else still sorta happens minus the funeral scene. Bobbie, Leo, James and almost everyone is a suspect. Mattie would still arrive to help and Leland would kill her. Dale will go into the Black Lodge and meet Laura or even himself. If he listens to Hawk's advice, he might not run or with more men on the hunt for Laura, Wyndem Earl may never show up or is caught and killed. Regardless, the timeline Cooper creates with the missing Laura is not the one him and Laura are in at the end of the show.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:48 am

Dale creates a world where the mystery is not who killed Laura Palmer, but Where is Laura Palmer? Laura is still a member of that world, her missing is not going to change people's names. What you have is a world where I believe Ronetta is killed instead of Laura. Leland kills her and plants the B letter that sends Dale to Twin Peaks. Everything else still sorta happens minus the funeral scene. Bobbie, Leo, James and almost everyone is a suspect. Mattie would still arrive to help and Leland would kill her. Dale will go into the Black Lodge and meet Laura or even himself. If he listens to Hawk's advice, he might not run or with more men on the hunt for Laura, Wyndem Earl may never show up or is caught and killed. Regardless, the timeline Cooper creates with the missing Laura is not the one him and Laura are in at the end of the show.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Postby KyleRickards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:49 am

N. Needleman wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:Sure. In another timeline. But this is Lynch/Frost, and the rules of when/where things take effect are sticky at best. I think Coop emerged from Glastonberry Grove to Diane in 18 in the same universe he left, where Laura died. I do not believe they physically crossed into the timeline Coop had generated at the end of 17 until they drove down that road.


So you think her disappearing from his grasp was just to place her back in the Red Room and "course correct" her death and her final outcome?


I don't know exactly. But no, I think what happened is that what he did in 1989 echoed into the Red Room in the future - we hear her scream from Part 2 repeated there. I think Cooper, unknowingly, is the one who was responsible for ripping the post-FWWM, ascended Laura from her peace in that scene after all. She is ripped from her higher place and sent into Cooper's new timeline as a malformed version of herself: Carrie Page. Like Diane she is forced into a new identity; like Cooper she is now out of balance psychically. And maybe his choice has created a timeline where Judy is even more powerful and rampant (Carrie/Laura works in Judy's lair).


Did we work out why a screaming image of Laura appeared at Cole's hotel room door?


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