Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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N. Needleman
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by N. Needleman »

Crossposting part of my latest pretentious post from the Freddie thread, as I loved that big scene in Part 17:
I actually think [the BOB battle] is honest because it's positioned between [FWWM and Part 18]. If the story had simply ended on a bravura CGI finale with BOB Bowl '17 there, that I think would've been a bit too pat and conventional and yes, dishonest. But it was always going to go back to Cooper and Laura somehow and something more internal, and it did. I do think the parts are definitely distinct counterpoints. But I think that goes back to Cooper. Everyone fulfills their roles, until Cooper's mania makes him decide to go for two birds with one stone.

There had to be other ways to utilize the spirit of Laura to battle Judy, if need be. I do not believe what Cooper did was what Margaret alluded to when she said "Laura is the one". I do not believe it was what the Fireman intended. I think Cooper made his own flawed hero's mistake there just as he did while trapped in the Lodge in FWWM - pleading with Laura not to take the ring simply because he didn't want her to die, even though dying was the only way to save her soul. I believed he was wrong about that for 20 years and AFAIC Part 18 proved me right. It was about what he wanted for her (and as an extension of his mission/male agency), not what the universe needed.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by BHell »

vicksvapor77 wrote:
TheGum wrote:I absolutely believe all of the time glitches, tiny plot inconsistencies, and time stamp changes are very intentional and meant to convey different simultaneous realities as time spins a bit more out of control due to Dale's meddling. I believe this is foreshadowed in TSHOTP. Continuity errors in a book? Possible. But to show up rather similarly both in the visuals and narrative of the companion show is clearly intended imho.
Well, the one that Mark addressed directly on Twitter was Norma's mom and Cooper preventing Laura's death in 1989 in one timeline sure as hell wouldn't change Norma's parents LOL.
Probably not. But who says it has to be a result of that one change? Or that this is a case of cause and effect? Considering Norma's family includes (or excludes) not only her parents but also Annie, there could have been other, more intentional in-universe-reasons for a change.

Alas, 'tis all but speculation anyways. Still, isn't it a bit hard to imagine Mark Frost unintentionally messing up such a huge plot point from the original seasons? He wouldn't simply forget about the whole food-critic stuff, would he? I'd say it's save to rule out a continuation error here. Or for the Ed-and-Nadine-backstory.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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I still see no evidence the whole of the series has been erased. I think we are shown the exact opposite in 18. Cooper and Diane are themselves until they cross, into a new world - the new timeline he has made. Lynch and Frost have both been into alternate universes and timelines for years. If I thought that had happened to TP and there was no going back I'd be furious. But I think we're explicitly shown it is not so.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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Perhaps Cole was ultimately the one who failed. "If I ever disappear like Jeffries I want you to do everything you can to find me, I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone" Maybe Coop anticipated developing this mania to fix everything once he's in the framework and would have that ablility and wanted Cole to stop him.
Last edited by TheGum on Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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vicksvapor77
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by vicksvapor77 »

N. Needleman wrote:I still see no evidence the whole of the series has been erased. I think we are shown the exact opposite in 18. Cooper and Diane are themselves until they cross, into a new world - the new timeline he has made. Lynch and Frost have both been into alternate universes and timelines for years. If I thought that had happened to TP and there was no going back I'd be furious. But I think we're explicitly shown it is not so.
Well, if Laura isn't killed in 1989 (which is hard to decipher in the sequence), surely that could change everything we know of the other characters and their fates?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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vicksvapor77 wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I still see no evidence the whole of the series has been erased. I think we are shown the exact opposite in 18. Cooper and Diane are themselves until they cross, into a new world - the new timeline he has made. Lynch and Frost have both been into alternate universes and timelines for years. If I thought that had happened to TP and there was no going back I'd be furious. But I think we're explicitly shown it is not so.
Well, if Laura isn't killed in 1989 (which is hard to decipher in the sequence), surely that could change everything we know of the other characters and their fates?
Sure. In another timeline. But this is Lynch/Frost, and the rules of when/where things take effect are sticky at best. I think Coop emerged from Glastonberry Grove to Diane in 18 in the same universe he left, where Laura died. I do not believe they physically crossed into the timeline Coop had generated at the end of 17 until they drove down that road.
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N. Needleman
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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TheGum wrote:Perhaps Cole was ultimately the one who failed. "If I ever disappear like Jeffries I want you to do everything you can to find me, I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone" Maybe Coop anticipated developing this mania to fix everything once he's in the framework and would have that ablility and wanted Cole to stop him.
Sounds like another "write it in your diary" to me. Season 4?
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vicksvapor77
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by vicksvapor77 »

N. Needleman wrote:Sure. In another timeline. But this is Lynch/Frost, and the rules of when/where things take effect are sticky at best. I think Coop emerged from Glastonberry Grove to Diane in 18 in the same universe he left, where Laura died. I do not believe they physically crossed into the timeline Coop had generated at the end of 17 until they drove down that road.
So you think her disappearing from his grasp was just to place her back in the Red Room and "course correct" her death and her final outcome?
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N. Needleman
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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vicksvapor77 wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:Sure. In another timeline. But this is Lynch/Frost, and the rules of when/where things take effect are sticky at best. I think Coop emerged from Glastonberry Grove to Diane in 18 in the same universe he left, where Laura died. I do not believe they physically crossed into the timeline Coop had generated at the end of 17 until they drove down that road.
So you think her disappearing from his grasp was just to place her back in the Red Room and "course correct" her death and her final outcome?
I don't know exactly. But no, I think what happened is that what he did in 1989 echoed into the Red Room in the future - we hear her scream from Part 2 repeated there. I think Cooper, unknowingly, is the one who was responsible for ripping the post-FWWM, ascended Laura from her peace in that scene after all. She is ripped from her higher place and sent into Cooper's new timeline as a malformed version of herself: Carrie Page. Like Diane she is forced into a new identity; like Cooper she is now out of balance psychically. And maybe his choice has created a timeline where Judy is even more powerful and rampant (Carrie/Laura works in Judy's lair).
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by N. Needleman »

Oh, one more reason I think we can assume the original timeline is fine: In 18, before Cooper and Diane cross over, Dougie II goes home to Janey-E and Sonny Jim, who clearly have been waiting on his return just as they were in 16. Without Laura's death and the subsequent investigation there is no place in the world for any iteration of Dougie Jones to ever exist.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by Pinky »

N. Needleman wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I still see no evidence the whole of the series has been erased. I think we are shown the exact opposite in 18. Cooper and Diane are themselves until they cross, into a new world - the new timeline he has made. Lynch and Frost have both been into alternate universes and timelines for years. If I thought that had happened to TP and there was no going back I'd be furious. But I think we're explicitly shown it is not so.
Well, if Laura isn't killed in 1989 (which is hard to decipher in the sequence), surely that could change everything we know of the other characters and their fates?
Sure. In another timeline. But this is Lynch/Frost, and the rules of when/where things take effect are sticky at best. I think Coop emerged from Glastonberry Grove to Diane in 18 in the same universe he left, where Laura died. I do not believe they physically crossed into the timeline Coop had generated at the end of 17 until they drove down that road.
This is my take on it too. But what did Cooper mean in the sheriff's station when he said 'some things will change' with what sounded like a heavy heart? Is he saying that these changes will be noticeable to everyone in this original timeline? He seems to be saying that whatever he's up to may have tangible effects on those present. That's not how changing the past 'works' (outside of BTTF), is it? I'd imagine that no matter what Coop gets up to, things aren't going to change for those he's leaving behind, the change will happen in the alternate timeline that forks off with everything he does change. Or is he referring to Twin Peaks perhaps undergoing some kind of change after the defeat of BOB and Doppel?
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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Pinky wrote:This is my take on it too. But what did Cooper mean in the sheriff's station when he said 'some things will change' with what sounded like a heavy heart. Is he saying that these changes will be noticeable to everyone in this original timeline? He seems to be saying that whatever he's up to may have tangible effects on those present. That's not how changing the past 'works' (outside of BTTF), is it? I'd imagine that no matter what Coop gets up to, things aren't going to change for those he's leaving behind, the change will happen in the alternate timeline that forks off with everything he does change.
No, I think he meant what he said - things will change, but he didn't know quite how. He had no idea how far it would go and what it would do to him and Diane, and Laura.

Cooper has proven to not be the most unimpeachable source of unbiased information. He tells Laura not to take the ring in FWWM when the ring is her only hope. I don't know that he actually knew it would be a separate timeline - I think he just knew he'd 'change things', stop Judy, save Laura, badabing, two birds one stone, and hey, some stuff might change, guys, we'll see. I think he was careless and naive and didn't realize what he was planning would branch him off into an entirely different place where he and the people he brought with him would lose their sense of identity and self.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by vicksvapor77 »

N. Needleman wrote:No, I think he meant what he said - things will change, but he didn't know quite how. He had no idea how far it would go and what it would do to him and Diane, and Laura.

Cooper has proven to not be the most unimpeachable source of unbiased information. He tells Laura not to take the ring in FWWM when the ring is her only hope. I don't know that he actually knew it would be a separate timeline - I think he just knew he'd 'change things', stop Judy, save Laura, badabing, two birds one stone, and hey, some stuff might change, guys, we'll see. I think he was careless and naive and didn't realize what he was planning would branch him off into an entirely different place where he and the people he brought with him would lose their sense of identity and self.
I'm liking this idea more and more (your other post about Janey-E and Sonny Jim included) but it doesn't explain why Sarah/Judy (?) was freaking out and unable to smash Laura's impenetrable homecoming queen photo.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

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Cipher wrote:
nonemoreblack wrote:IndieWire had a similar optimistic outlook: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/09/twin-p ... 201872863/

"Evil triumphs good in the alternate dimension when Carrie Page reawakens as a horrified Laura Palmer. But good will keep trying nonetheless; that’s the optimism of David Lynch. Part 8 turned the scope of 'Twin Peaks' into a grand fight between evil (Judy appears to be the monster figure that gave birth to BOB) and good (the Fireman gives birth to Laura Palmer, the only being that can defeat the evil created by the atomic bomb). Part 18 ended the series by saying that fight never ends. It’s destined to keep repeating itself; but as long as we have Dale Cooper’s in the world, good will always have a shot. Lynch’s finale ultimately makes this grand statement understandable and unavoidable; it’s what 'Twin Peaks' is all about. Here’s hoping we get to see Cooper have another shot at evil in the future."

My only issue with this is that it doesn't go into how Cooper's desire to save Laura robs her of her transcendence, and how no matter what he does, it doesn't change the trauma she went through. Maybe his final question is meant to be a signal that he'll get there eventually, so they can both be at peace. I have a theory that while Judy needs to be controlled, good and evil must always exist together, and therefore she can never be 'beaten' like Cooper assumes. What happened to Laura was terrible, but by preventing her death Cooper took away both the bad AND the good which came from it, such as Laura's freedom from Bob and all of the people Cooper loved in Twin Peaks. Evil will always exist in some form, and Cooper needs to learn to fight it in a different way. It makes me think of what Dougie was able to do in Las Vegas compared to the rot which was setting in throughout Twin Peaks. Instead of trying to change the past, Cooper could do far more good for the residents of Twin Peaks in the present. He doesn't realise this yet, so he passes them by. It's late and I'm slightly delirious, so apologies if this doesn't make sense. haha
While I can absolutely read a sense of hope in the ending, bleak as it is in the moment (a perfectly honest and fitting mix), I can't vibe with any interpretation that places its faith in good outcomes on Cooper rather than Laura.

Cooper's done, or at least has a lot of spiritual growing left to do. He's the detective. Laura is the victim. Her role is always to know more than he does. She's the totem of Twin Peak's good, the one we've seen in forms of transcendence, because she's the one whose come closest to this world's ultimate forms of love/good in her self-acceptance, despite growing up in a cosmic cradle of abuse (literally, with Bob and Judy for parents; every personal trauma is writ large onto the cosmology of Twin Peaks).

Cooper can't even face the possibility of his own appetites (Mr. C.) or failures (Dougie) until they're forced into him at the end. The opposite of love and acceptance in Twin Peaks is fear. There's a lot of fear there yet, even if he's on the right track. First step is meeting the whole.

But -- we have Laura in the living world again. And it is Laura. We have a Coop who may yet grow through suffering (thanks, TheGum) and acceptance. They can certainly make something of whatever the Fireman and their own actions have set up yet.

But the one to take charge in the story we'll likely never see? It's going to have to be Laura this time. Just as it was Laura who got the triumphant moment over Coop during the original run. He's done something horribly wrong in the moment, but something might come from it yet, many worlds and flirtations with impossible strangeness to come.
Hm, I'm not sure I view it that way. The way I see it, Laura has already accomplished what she needed to do. It was Cooper who messed it up, and therefore it's his responsibility to resolve it. Laura can maybe be the person who saves Cooper in a sense by getting him to that point, but we don't even know what happens after she screams. Do they remain in that world? Does Laura waking up change it to something else? It's hard to say.
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Re: Part 18 - What is your name? (SPOILERS)

Post by Pinky »

Cole says that Coop told him in 1989 that he's trying to 'kill two birds with one stone'. Presumably this is the real world Coop of S1 and 2, not a Lodge-accessed Cooper time travelling or anything. So how did Coop know to say it? Did he have the meeting with the Fireman in a lodge vision/dream at the time?
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