Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3680
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

I think the “white squares” on the FBI monitors are the Dougie Jones file Headley just sent, coming in page by page.
User avatar
AXX°N N.
Great Northern Member
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by AXX°N N. »

boske wrote:I will need to rewatch this part for at least one thing in particular: there is a one brief shot of some machinery in a room at Fireman's place/palace. That looks interesting.
I don't know if I've said it on the boards anywhere, but I consider this the single most important shot in the entire season. Up until that moment, we've been exposed to the Fireman, Senorita Dido, their record players and their technology with the impression that they're platonic entities--he might stand for the Father, her the Mother, there is one couch, one screen, one machine for each purpose. As soon as you show an expansive hallway with what appears to be an endless array of the same device, there is suddenly a consumptive aspect at play--there is obsolescence involved, on some level, an industrial component, energy that, like in our realm, must not be depleted but maintained. It instantly parallels the fact that negative entitites we've been exposed to (BOB, LMFAP et al) have been reliant on the consumption of Garmonbozia.

Less clear to me, but still something I feel on an intuitive level, is dread involved at a sudden humanization of these devices. Perhaps it's the presence of Briggs' head floating like an object (the endpoint of stoicism?), or the fact that Mr. C is conveyed in a cage rather like a conveyer belt through the air. Perhaps it's the sudden realization that the shape of these devices reminds of Jeffries, who has been reduced (elevated?) into the form of vapor in a canister. Perhaps it's the sudden sense this is the same dynamic, somehow, as Garmonbozia, meaning there must be some human-derived dynamic to whatever these devices are used for. Perhaps it puts into stark relief the presence of the telephone poles, as conveyers of some kind in tandem to key areas of homicide.

If the Fireman is good, he has to be good not in the way of cliche but of Yin/Yang, as Lynch clearly ascribes to buddhist thought. If he's 'good', he has to be 'the good with a touch of the bad,' similar to like I've said elsewhere re. the fact he comes across to me as representing a platonic form of 'the leader who must make tough decisions for the sake of the overall good being maintained,' ie, creating the suffering of Laura Palmer for ulterior motives.

Without the shot of the machines, there is arguably far less of an angle for entry into the consideration of the Fireman, and the entire palace, as somewhat more sinister or based in necessity than we might assume.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3680
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Interesting. It seems almost like the Fireman is the keeper of these devices in some gigantic warehouse, perhaps loaning them out to other Lodge spirits/locations at his discretion? Where else do we see these devices and what do we see them do?

In Part 3, one is on top of the spaceship/steel box containing the Mansion Room (which Cooper initially enters, notably, through what looks like the exterior of the Fireman’s home). It electrocutes Naido, who seemingly sacrifices herself in order to switch the current so Copper can reenter the “real” world.

In Part 8, one beeps to alert the Fireman to the nuclear explosion. We see two more in the screening room which don’t seem to be used onscreen.

And of course, Jeffries seems to be inhabiting one (also seemingly in the Mansion Room, which apparently can be accessed from the Dutchman’s as well).

I wonder if Naido pulling the lever has any intentional link (even just thematically or as motif) to the slot machines in the casino environment where Cooper is soon going to land?
User avatar
boske
Great Northern Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by boske »

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I think the “white squares” on the FBI monitors are the Dougie Jones file Headley just sent, coming in page by page.
It did not look that way to me at for several reasons:
  • Those were plain squares, they did not assume any of the standard page sizes (e.g. Letter, Legal, A4, etc.);
  • They were blank, which may be actually as expected from a certain point of view :lol:
  • The collation order it totally weird: it goes top to bottom and then right to left, and no language that I know has such an order. While Semitic languages are right to left, they are not top to bottom, and similarly Far-East Asian traditional ones are top to bottom (e.g. Traditional Chinese), they do not flow right to left, not that I know to be honest;
I guess we are probably reading to much into this, but who has that kind of equipment in a hotel room anyway.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3680
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

boske wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I think the “white squares” on the FBI monitors are the Dougie Jones file Headley just sent, coming in page by page.
It did not look that way to me at for several reasons:
  • Those were plain squares, they did not assume any of the standard page sizes (e.g. Letter, Legal, A4, etc.);
  • They were blank, which may be actually as expected from a certain point of view :lol:
  • The collation order it totally weird: it goes top to bottom and then right to left, and no language that I know has such an order. While Semitic languages are right to left, they are not top to bottom, and similarly Far-East Asian traditional ones are top to bottom (e.g. Traditional Chinese), they do not flow right to left, not that I know to be honest;
I guess we are probably reading to much into this, but who has that kind of equipment in a hotel room anyway.
They’re definitely not blank. On the Blu Ray, it’s very clear that the pages have typing on them, although it’s impossible to read them.

Yeah, you’re right, the collation order is odd. But it seems pretty obvious to me what the intent was: these pages start showing up in rapid succession shortly after Headley tells Cole, “My team is sending everything to you as we speak.” Then when Albert and Tammy are incredulously reading about Dougie’s antics, they both look back and forth between Tammy’s Mac and the pages popping up on the monitors behind them.

And yeah, the mobile nerve center in that hotel room is hilarious to me. Very James Bond, or Man from U.N.C.L.E. (both of which were formative influences on Mark).
User avatar
boske
Great Northern Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by boske »

AXX°N N. wrote:
boske wrote:I will need to rewatch this part for at least one thing in particular: there is a one brief shot of some machinery in a room at Fireman's place/palace. That looks interesting.
I don't know if I've said it on the boards anywhere, but I consider this the single most important shot in the entire season. Up until that moment, we've been exposed to the Fireman, Senorita Dido, their record players and their technology with the impression that they're platonic entities--he might stand for the Father, her the Mother, there is one couch, one screen, one machine for each purpose. As soon as you show an expansive hallway with what appears to be an endless array of the same device, there is suddenly a consumptive aspect at play--there is obsolescence involved, on some level, an industrial component, energy that, like in our realm, must not be depleted but maintained. It instantly parallels the fact that negative entitites we've been exposed to (BOB, LMFAP et al) have been reliant on the consumption of Garmonbozia.

Less clear to me, but still something I feel on an intuitive level, is dread involved at a sudden humanization of these devices. Perhaps it's the presence of Briggs' head floating like an object (the endpoint of stoicism?), or the fact that Mr. C is conveyed in a cage rather like a conveyer belt through the air. Perhaps it's the sudden realization that the shape of these devices reminds of Jeffries, who has been reduced (elevated?) into the form of vapor in a canister. Perhaps it's the sudden sense this is the same dynamic, somehow, as Garmonbozia, meaning there must be some human-derived dynamic to whatever these devices are used for. Perhaps it puts into stark relief the presence of the telephone poles, as conveyers of some kind in tandem to key areas of homicide.

If the Fireman is good, he has to be good not in the way of cliche but of Yin/Yang, as Lynch clearly ascribes to buddhist thought. If he's 'good', he has to be 'the good with a touch of the bad,' similar to like I've said elsewhere re. the fact he comes across to me as representing a platonic form of 'the leader who must make tough decisions for the sake of the overall good being maintained,' ie, creating the suffering of Laura Palmer for ulterior motives.

Without the shot of the machines, there is arguably far less of an angle for entry into the consideration of the Fireman, and the entire palace, as somewhat more sinister or based in necessity than we might assume.
That scene shows the futility of Cooper and Mr. C endeavours more than anything else. What has Mr. C achieved? Nothing. To me, he was clearly after the Fireman and was tossed aside by a slight move of a hand; he was never a danger to him. And what about Cooper? It simply looks like he was released from the lodge so that Gerard and LMFAP can get their garmonbozia, Cooper here is just some collateral damage. Did lodge entities genuinely care for him, or was it all just about Bob's garmonbozia? Both Cooper and Mr. C are simply out of their league, at least that seems to be the message that I am getting.

I mentioned this in the disappointed thread I think, but my reading of Ep. 29 was that the Giant was an embodiment of Jupiter. Why?
  • It was about a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • LMFAP is in charge of time and rings, and there is a Saturn lamp in the waiting room;
  • "One and the same" has the Giant and LMFAP together, a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • Jupiter is a gas giant;
  • It is slow as it paces across the sky (remember that aspect of Senior Droolcup);
  • Giant's wardrobe has all the dominant colors of Jupiter's disk;
  • And the most peculiar one: the bow tie! It is just like Jupiter's giant red spot; :-)
  • So if we start from this premise, then Dido is actually Juno;
I did not notice the hallway until today. It was my second real viewing, and the first viewing was at 2 am (for us European viewers), there is no way to be able to notice all those details that require real attention. :lol:

Regarding Fireman: to me, he simply looks to be beyond good and evil, the way we understand them, and that was the title of Ep. 29, if my memory serves me right. What happens in the lodge is way out of our league, that seems to be the message. Somehow that one brief shot reminded me of that giant human farm from the Matrix, but I will have to watch it again for sure.
User avatar
boske
Great Northern Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by boske »

Mr. Reindeer wrote: They’re definitely not blank. On the Blu Ray, it’s very clear that the pages have typing on them, although it’s impossible to read them.
Sorry, I did not see the typing at all, I was watching this on TV and the stream compression must have kicked in. I should be getting my DVDs shortly.
LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by LateReg »

Finished my weekly, Sunday rewatch, replicating the original airing.

I know this must have been semi-said before in discussions of Cole's info-dump at the very beginning of Part 17, but this time it really struck me that the plan that he was concealing from Albert for 25 years - which Lynch is hilariously unsure whether or not is going according to plan - is about Lynch's desire to continue the series 25 years later. I'm not saying he always intended to continue the series, but that it may be a play on the idea of the time-slippage and "official version," that at some point the true narrative as many will recall it due to Cooper's messing with time is that Lynch had always intended to film this return as far back as 1990. The thought of playing with the central (theorized) narrative in such a meta-way is very amusing.

Along the same meta-lines, I was wondering if it could be - or perhaps was mentioned in Twin Perfect's video - that the drunk in the jail cell is intended on one level to reveal how annoying mimicry (in art) is, for example, how annoying all the less original Twin Peaks copycats are. This fits with the whole diner discussion in Part 13 of franchising and diluting the formula.

I'm still not sure about Green Glove overall, but I've come to see how folks like Needleman believe that for Lynch Freddie is a sincere creation, even as meant as deux ex machina by Frost (and possibly Lynch as well). I also must say that I like the green glove fight more and more every time I see it, as both a visceral scene and as a formal experiment.
User avatar
eyeboogers
Great Northern Member
Posts: 729
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by eyeboogers »

boske wrote: I mentioned this in the disappointed thread I think, but my reading of Ep. 29 was that the Giant was an embodiment of Jupiter. Why?
  • It was about a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • LMFAP is in charge of time and rings, and there is a Saturn lamp in the waiting room;
  • "One and the same" has the Giant and LMFAP together, a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • Jupiter is a gas giant;
  • It is slow as it paces across the sky (remember that aspect of Senior Droolcup);
  • Giant's wardrobe has all the dominant colors of Jupiter's disk;
  • And the most peculiar one: the bow tie! It is just like Jupiter's giant red spot; :-)
  • So if we start from this premise, then Dido is actually Juno;
I did not notice the hallway until today. It was my second real viewing, and the first viewing was at 2 am (for us European viewers), there is no way to be able to notice all those details that require real attention. :lol:
Great idea, you are the first one I've seen mention this, and I am thoroughly convinced that this is the case.
User avatar
boske
Great Northern Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by boske »

eyeboogers wrote:
boske wrote: I mentioned this in the disappointed thread I think, but my reading of Ep. 29 was that the Giant was an embodiment of Jupiter. Why?
  • It was about a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • LMFAP is in charge of time and rings, and there is a Saturn lamp in the waiting room;
  • "One and the same" has the Giant and LMFAP together, a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn;
  • Jupiter is a gas giant;
  • It is slow as it paces across the sky (remember that aspect of Senior Droolcup);
  • Giant's wardrobe has all the dominant colors of Jupiter's disk;
  • And the most peculiar one: the bow tie! It is just like Jupiter's giant red spot; :-)
  • So if we start from this premise, then Dido is actually Juno;
I did not notice the hallway until today. It was my second real viewing, and the first viewing was at 2 am (for us European viewers), there is no way to be able to notice all those details that require real attention. :lol:
Great idea, you are the first one I've seen mention this, and I am thoroughly convinced that this is the case.
Thank you. I had noticed that originally a while back, and I just remembered that when I mentioned that originally elsewhere, it was also the time when I noticed some themes that had appeared in David Bowie's "Let's Dance" video, that were seemingly paralleled in TP later on, so I may as well mention them here, so they do not get forgotten.

For example:
  • The opening shot has a truck passing by a corner of an Aussie diner; an electrical pole is prominently featured; I am pretty sure we have an exact such scene (the distance from the diner and the camera angle) early on in the original TP, except that the truck there is transporting logs instead of cattle;
  • A scene featuring a radio set, played backwards! Now that is some literal music in the air; ;-)
  • The bar that Bowie plays in has a checkered pattern (red and black though), and there is a fan in the ceiling as well;
  • Bowie is dressed in white, just like Phillip Jeffries was in Buenos Aires, except that here Bowie has white shoes;
  • Red shoes though appear shortly thereafter followed by a nuclear blast in the distance;
  • Let's Dance vs. Let's Rock, it is an obvious parallel;
  • The verse "because my love for you would break my heart in two". Remember Laura's heart pendant here;
  • There is more in there, the snake skin pattern in the gallery, left hand flashing and then settling as sun is setting, and probably a few more;
Another video that may have served as inspiration or perhaps came from the same pool of ideas is Tom Petty's "Running Down a Dream". What does it have:
  • Red curtains behind Tom;
  • A dwarf with no, or perhaps doppelgänger-like light pupils, descending a ladder in a dream, imploring Tom to wake up;
  • It is shot in black and white, just like those Fireman scenes in S3;
  • Party balloons;
  • A phonograph that trips Tom;
  • More and more stairs;
  • Number 8 ball;
  • Natives and then some giant rabbits;
  • Tom getting scared and losing his shoes;
  • Fireworks and explosions in the sky;
  • The dwarf falling into open space just like Naido;
  • Edit: and a few more: Manhattan with some moth-like flying creatures;
  • Tom and the dwarf falling through cracks in the ground;
User avatar
Pinky
RR Diner Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:21 am

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by Pinky »

talked about this a few years ago but in the BTS for the scene where Coop runs into the station, Lynch tells MacLachlan that there's no hesitation for him as to where to go because 'no time has passed for you' and he will remember the layout of the station. Obviously, Coop experienced the Lodge and learned things about how it works, so what to think of this? Maybe when he re-enters the world, his conscious mind picks up where it left off? Perhaps as some kind of way of easing what would be a pretty traumatic ordeal (athough there's suddenly being 25 years older to contend with)?

We can take it that time doesn't work anything like it does in the real world, but it does pass (they age; Coop has learned about the seed; Diane and Coop remember things that happened in there that we don't get to hear about). Has he literally been wandering about in there for years or has he been sitting in the chair whilst getting all this knowledge beamed into his head?

I don't think it has any bearing on the story, but it's interesting to see that Lynch at least had some of the Lodge logistics in mind. There's no real place for it in the show, but it's a shame we didn't find out more about how the Lodges work. We discovered that there were other entrances to it, at least, as well as there possibly being a sub level in the Mauve World.
User avatar
Histeria
Great Northern Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by Histeria »

There was an even starker instance of this back in the hospital.

He woke up and told Mullins exactly which cabinet his items were stored in. They were put in there when he was very much comatose, possibly when he wasn't even in the same room.

Really seems to be that he's seen this all before.

Whereas in Part 18 it feels like he's done this all before. Over and over and over.
User avatar
mtwentz
Lodge Member
Posts: 2185
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by mtwentz »

I know Jerry Horne was meant to be mostly light humor in the story, but something just occurred to me:
1. Jerry was found without his clothes; Naido/Diane was found without clothes
2. Jerry somehow got from Twin Peaks to Wyoming
3. Jerry somehow in Wyoming right near the coordinates trap that killed Richard, which might be a portal too.

Does this lead one to conclude Jerry was in fact placed in Wyoming after being sucked up into the vortex?

Or was Jerry just really, really high, hitchhiked his way to Wyoming, freaked out after seeing Richard liquidated, and stripped off his own clothes?
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
User avatar
Histeria
Great Northern Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by Histeria »

I did wonder if there was any plot reason why he happened to be in place as a key moment of cosmic significance was being carried out.
User avatar
AXX°N N.
Great Northern Member
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Post by AXX°N N. »

mtwentz wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:22 pmOr was Jerry just really, really high, hitchhiked his way to Wyoming, freaked out after seeing Richard liquidated, and stripped off his own clothes?
I feel like one of the motifs of S3 that doesn't get touched on enough is the conflation of the supernatural with a drug-high state. In Part 5 when Becky gets high she's looking up blissful at the sky, and the same thing happens in a much worse scenario (also involving Steven) when Gersten looks up in awe/terror, and we can only assume from the bombed-out dialogue that they just got high. If they're not literally connected, as in Jerry's case, there's a lot of suggestion that they're not totally unrelated. I can't help but think of the Evolution of the Arm when Jerry's foot is talking, for instance. Other things I feel are unnervingly, vaguely connected include the fact that the character most steeped in drugs, Sarah Palmer, is incubating something inside. Or the overlap of the Roadhouse in terms of drugs and dreams.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
Post Reply