Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
mtwentz
Posts: 1882
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:47 am

Ross wrote:
Wonderful & Strange wrote:
Ross wrote:I think some of the effects are absolutely awful. But I certainly believe they are exactly what Lynch wanted. Just because they are intentional, doesn't mean that I am supposed to like them.


Fixed.

Fans can't seem to understand that art isn't always trying, or ever trying, to produce enjoyment in the audience.

There are many other effects artists try to produce in people, especially members of the avant garde. Estrangement, disturbance, dislocation.

It always makes me chuckle when fans assume Lynch wants you to enjoy everything like a piece of pie. It's not really about creating a commodity. At least not an easily consumable commodity.

So the effects look as intended, AND we aren't supposed to like them.


I've really found most of the effects quite creepy and disconcerting. The most effective and creepy were Laura being raptured up out of the Lodge and Cooper going through the electrical socket (which kind of made my skin crawl).. The least effective for me were the Dougie and Diane tulpas into gold seeds.

But I don't think I have ever seen a movie with special effects where someone doesn't complain. Well maybe no one complained about Superman and the original Star Wars. Those might be the only two.
"Dougie is COOPER? How the Hell is this!?"
User avatar
docLEXfisti
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 9:59 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby docLEXfisti » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:12 pm

Jasper wrote:Agreed. His death might involve electrocution, but it certainly seems to go well beyond it into something more extreme.

I am sure Richard will be back as the "New Bob" for SE04 :D
User avatar
Novalis
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Novalis » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:19 pm

Wonderful & Strange wrote:
Fans can't seem to understand that art isn't always trying, or ever trying, to produce enjoyment in the audience.

There are many other effects artists try to produce in people, especially members of the avant garde. Estrangement, disturbance, dislocation.

It always makes me chuckle when fans assume Lynch wants you to enjoy everything like a piece of pie. It's not really about creating a commodity. At least not an easily consumable commodity.


I can't see where I am actually quoting this from, since it was somewhat nested in other people's quotes, but I think it is very true.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
User avatar
ScarFace32
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:45 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:51 pm

Wonderful & Strange wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
Wonderful & Strange wrote:
Or they could have done everything they did intentionally, don't you think?

You have to understand that David Lynch is not a realist. His aesthetic interests are all about challenging realist representation. That's what surrealism, expressionism, Dada, and absurdism are all about.

EDIT: When people resort to speculation about budgets, I begin waiting to see if they have anything to support the idea. Or is it just pure speculation?


Yea I mean I've said this over and over I'm not talking about realism. According to David Lynch the argument with Showtime was about budget wasn't it?


You don't realize that you are talking about realism. You don't want effects that look "cheesy." Lynch and the avant garde in general value effects that look cheesy because what we consider to be "cheesy" in our culture has everything to do with realist assumptions about what looks accurate and believable.

When you say you like good-looking surrealism, you're saying that you like believable surrealism. But real surrealism doesn't value passing itself off as believable. So what you really like are weird effects packed up in a realistic commodity package, probably like we find in a big budget movie.


You don't know me or what I like. Please tell me more about this fascinating avant garde. The tulpa effects are beyond being "cheesy".
User avatar
garethw
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:48 pm
Location: Deep River

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby garethw » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:53 pm

TheGum wrote:One thing I'm really interested in after watching the finale is piecing together a timeline of what happens when in relation to other things (ny vs Vegas vs washington etc) we know it's not all shown in a linear way- possible time glitches aside, coopers lodge exit and brief appearance in NYC for example is shown in episode 3, but occurs in episode 1, for example. (Also just rewatched ep 1- what were those horny fools thinking!? Like- even barring getting killed, there's cameras everywhere, he'd definitely be fired)


Being a nerd, I keep thinking I'd like to build a simple database of all the scenes in this thing, with references to who appears in each scene, what is referenced, maybe when it occurs (or at least in relation to other things). And then be able to generate a playlist of scenes based on them - "show me all of Sarah's scenes", or "references to smoking". I just think it would be a neat exploratory tool, and sort of in keeping with Lynch saying that maybe people should watch the parts in random order, reducto ad absurdum.

Also, being a nerd, I am a giant nerd.
User avatar
I'm the Muffin
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:34 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby I'm the Muffin » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:58 pm

Well I kind of like the Duncan Todd headshot! It reminds me of classic era practical horror effects--when a shot like this would be achieved by cutting to a dummy head a half-second before it's blown up (e.g. that zombie head-shot early on in Dawn of the Dead)--that's just what it feels like. No, it doesn't look realistic, but it has an uncanny charm.
User avatar
ScarFace32
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:45 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:59 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:Ha... Going back to the Production Code era of classics.... Never bothered me when James Cagney or Humphrey Bogart shot up their ganster rivals with a barrel of bullets with not a spec of blood or even a bullet hole.


Do they even show blood or gunshot wounds in pre-code gangster films?
User avatar
TheGum
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 9:26 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:00 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:You don't know me or what I like. Please tell me more about this fascinating avant garde. The tulpa effects are beyond being "cheesy".



I think the point here is that the tulpa effects might not appeal to you, but "cheesy" signifies going for one thing and ending up with another. There is no realistic example of a tulpa breaking down to seed, but looking at Lynch's art, the exact material he based that particular effect on, it's easy to tell that it is not an issue of budget constraints, that is EXACTLY what Lynch himself was going for, and you just don't like it. The source material matches the effect nearly exactly, so you can't really say "BAD EFFECTS!" In terms of what Lynch himself was trying to accomplish they're actually quite good.
I'm back in style!
User avatar
garethw
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:48 pm
Location: Deep River

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby garethw » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:05 pm

Nighthawk wrote:
AgentEcho wrote:Throughout all the lead up to this season, I was expecting this would be the final piece of the Twin Peaks franchise, and I was perfectly content with that. Now on the eve of the finally knowing we may be watching the final two hours not only of the Twin Peaks franchise but possibly of David Lynch's cinematic career, I definitely find myself hoping that's not the case.


Not really a spoiler, but I'll talk about the finale so I'll use the tag.

Spoiler:
I think that Lynch must have left the ending quite open with a view for a possible continuation. We will get some answers surely, but possibly even more questions. There is definitely going to be plenty of ambiguity at the end, open to various interpretations. This is going to be quite maddening I expect.


I think you may be right, and I'm a bit worried about this.

A lot of shows have been ruined in the large by not being renewed, or by premature cancellation (Deadwood, Carnivale, and Veronica Mars are some off the top of my head; there are probably many others). I don't need everything tied up in a neat little bow, but it does seem a disconcertingly pragmatic approach to set up these new threads "just in case" the story continues. Unresolved story lines are one thing by design, but quite another if what they really signify are a hedge against business realities. Seems pretty much the opposite of art.

Whatevs. I'm happy S3 exists. I thought Lynch's major works had probably ended a decade ago; it kind of blows my mind that the new series has increased the number of screen-minutes of his oeuvre by so, so much (someone calculated > 60%, I think?).
User avatar
ScarFace32
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:45 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ScarFace32 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:25 pm

TheGum wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:You don't know me or what I like. Please tell me more about this fascinating avant garde. The tulpa effects are beyond being "cheesy".



I think the point here is that the tulpa effects might not appeal to you, but "cheesy" signifies going for one thing and ending up with another. There is no realistic example of a tulpa breaking down to seed, but looking at Lynch's art, the exact material he based that particular effect on, it's easy to tell that it is not an issue of budget constraints, that is EXACTLY what Lynch himself was going for, and you just don't like it. The source material matches the effect nearly exactly, so you can't really say "BAD EFFECTS!" In terms of what Lynch himself was trying to accomplish they're actually quite good.


Perhaps, or Lynch said we don't have the budget to make this the way I really want so lets just use the effects from that short I did, that didn't cost anything
User avatar
mtsi
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:56 pm

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby mtsi » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:31 pm

Yes, it's is exactly the way Lynch and Frost wanted it. If it's perceived to be good or of decent quality is entirely another discussion.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
We live inside a dream.
User avatar
Ragnell
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:50 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:11 pm

TheGum wrote:While we're complaining...

I keep wondering why so many people keep referring to Richard's "electrocution"

I feel like it is SO much more than something that simple. His whole body is broken down into essentially vapor, and we see it happening from the legs and arms up. It has always struck me as a complete annihilation of his entire being. The visual strikes me as a cue to realize this isn't just something happening to his physical body, but his soul and existence as well.


If it's a trap intended for the Doppelganger, that's the effect it would have to have. It would need to go so far the Woodsman can't resurrect him. Otherwise, after they kill him he needs to be wearing the owl cave ring so he goes to the Red Room.

Though the absolute completeness of that may be why Audrey has her awakening the same ep. I'm certain that's tied to Richard's death, and that Richard himself is something of a curse on her, a tangible result of what Doppelcoop did to her, and obliterating him sent a psychic wave back to her.

SamGGD wrote:Come to really appreciate the Dougie arc.

Watching his breakfast scene with Sonny Jim where he spits out his coffee and smiles "Hi!"

Confused me for a bit, but it's all clearer now knowing Coop was in there behind this Dougie shell. Took him a while to fully escape, but Coop surfaced on brief occasions: "He's lying" to say helloooooo.

So I'm now interpreting that quite literally. You could argue the coffee DID wake up Coop. Just very briefly, and okay, not fully consciously. But it still jolted him. Almost a wink to the audience, Coop saying hi behind Dougie.


Love that. I hadn't seen that as Coop, but I had seen it in "You're lying" and Ike. Images of the Red Room and Gerard were clearly Gerard communicating, but maybe the little lights and flashes during Eps 4 and 6 were from Cooper's higher self, small notices to his lower self/"waking" self to react to something.

(Also noticed looking back, Janey-E says a neighbor is watching Sonny Jim when they're talking to the cops in Part 7. The Polish accountant?)

Jasper wrote:
referendum wrote:How i have been seeing it is - Dale Cooper was fully present and conscious but trapped in a sort of Limbo inside the residue of Dougie ( who was a trap set for him by Mr C ). So Dale Cooper has been aware of everything happening and taking note of it ( as Dale Cooper), but has not been able to express it or to ' get out' of Dougie's shell, has not been in control of the vehicle, as it were, so he has been stumbling around in this benign Dougie fog, acting stunned, unable to find the exit. So as soon as he finds a way out, he leaps out ' 100%' - there is no halfway state. Either he is still trapped, or he isn't - either he gets himself back, or he doesn't.


I completely agree. This is what we're being told via Cooper's awakening and his knowledge of things that had been going on around "Dougie", such as Bushnell's concealed carry and the precise make and model of the gun.

"Dougie" was like a numb, transparent shell of Coop, and a fully-aware Cooper was trapped on the inside of this shell, able to observe everything, but only able to lightly influence the actions of "Dougie". Cooper's goodness was able to permeate the shell, but for the most part his wit was not, except for in extreme instances (like the attack by Ike).

It's kind of like being stuck in a dream where you know it's a dream, but you can't seem to wake up. Your sleeping body might stir a bit in response to your awareness, but your conscious mind is essentially trapped in a sleeping body. In Cooper's case Cole's name stirred "Dougie" sufficiently for Cooper to seize a certain level of control, and engineer a way out.

Prior to Part 16, I didn't exactly know how DougieCoop worked. Now I know that there were two layers of consciousness of one person. The outer layer being barely conscious, and the hidden inner layer being fully conscious.


That's a marvelous way to put it right there.

Though, I think there's an added dimension to it where Cooper was convalescing during this as well. That sounds like an intense ordeal he's conscious of, but he's not only ready to work in Part 16... he's rested and refreshed, esp compared to how he was in the Lodge dimensions. It seems like the time as Dougie wasn't just an unintentional side trip that got him some resources, but a necessary rest and healing time.
User avatar
AgentEcho
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:57 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby AgentEcho » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:37 pm

Nighthawk wrote:
AgentEcho wrote:Throughout all the lead up to this season, I was expecting this would be the final piece of the Twin Peaks franchise, and I was perfectly content with that. Now on the eve of the finally knowing we may be watching the final two hours not only of the Twin Peaks franchise but possibly of David Lynch's cinematic career, I definitely find myself hoping that's not the case.


Not really a spoiler, but I'll talk about the finale so I'll use the tag.

Spoiler:
I think that Lynch must have left the ending quite open with a view for a possible continuation. We will get some answers surely, but possibly even more questions. There is definitely going to be plenty of ambiguity at the end, open to various interpretations. This is going to be quite maddening I expect.


Yes, if you look at all the various open threads heading into the last two hours, there's really no way all of them are going to be tied up, and I am not going to be mad when many of them are not. Of course it depends on which ones, but I'm not particularly worried that the threads that were left hanging from season 2 that became the basis for the new season will be left incomplete (which isn't to say that "completeness" may not have a touch of intentional ambiguity or enigma). Coop vs. Evil Coop must become complete. "Finding" Laura must become complete. There's a few other threads like Audrey's that has to progress beyond where it is is now, but for the most part almost anything else may be game for ambiguity and interpretation, and even perhaps leaving threads incomplete as a basis for a possible continuation. As long as it's not the same threads as the ones 25 years ago I can take it.
User avatar
Deep Thought
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:05 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:45 pm

The first time I watched MD I was wondering about all the "open threads," but now it feels like I am watching a very straighforward story. Hopefully we will see that in TPTR, excepting some season 4 loose ends.
There's your roast beef and cheese.
User avatar
referendum
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:29 am

Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:22 pm

Jasper wrote:
"Dougie" was like a numb, transparent shell of Coop, and a fully-aware Cooper was trapped on the inside of this shell, able to observe everything, but only able to lightly influence the actions of "Dougie". Cooper's goodness was able to permeate the shell, but for the most part his wit was not, except for in extreme instances (like the attack by Ike).

It's kind of like being stuck in a dream where you know it's a dream, but you can't seem to wake up. Your sleeping body might stir a bit in response to your awareness, but your conscious mind is essentially trapped in a sleeping body. In Cooper's case Cole's name stirred "Dougie" sufficiently for Cooper to seize a certain level of control, and engineer a way out.

Prior to Part 16, I didn't exactly know how DougieCoop worked. Now I know that there were two layers of consciousness of one person. The outer layer being barely conscious, and the hidden inner layer being fully conscious.


yeah, thanks for that. exactly this. :D

That for me ( your words in bold above) is where the 'Dougie' plotline hooks in with the rest of the show, why it is there, and central, and not as so many people say, a Las Vegas irrelevance, and i didn't see how the Dougie plot links with the rest, until a couple of days ago, when i had this...er...dream, a repetitive loop dream, being in the same place where the same events kept happening, half way between where i set out from and where i was going to ( on foot) and not being able to snap out of it or go forward or back, or speak properly, or move my limbs properly .... even though everything round me was happening ' normally eg at a normal speed, i was...not able to be fully present, and even though i was fully conscious of this and knew how stupid it looked to other people, who were understandably quite impatient about it.... and i woke up and went downstairs still carrying the residue of this dream-image/feeling, and suddenly thought:

Shit!!
Dougie!!

Then of course i totally forgot about it, until your comment reminded me of it just now. Of course is just random nonsense, but:

i love the way TP/ Lynch can make connections on these kinds of levels, by retaining the ' purity' of the idea, even though the result might appear ( at first glance ) to be totally fucking crass or stupid or annoying, and even though it might not click for a few days or even weeks, when it connects, it really connects. And it makes PEOPLE connect because they have both seen the same thing, and try and find ways of saying it to each other, revoice what lynch has already shown. This is a great level for film to work on, I think.

I remember reading an interview with someone who worked with Lynch on a record, and at one point, the guy said to Lynch, '' I dunno whether this is any good or not'', and Lynch said, '' don't worry about that. We're making things that other people can USE''

Cooper waking and the audrey mirror ending...are they different versions of the same thing?
Last edited by referendum on Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
''let's not overthink this opportunity''

Return to “Parts Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests