Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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Nighthawk
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Nighthawk »

writersblock wrote:
sewhite2000 wrote:
TheGum wrote:
Because she was killed, not repossessed by the Lodge.
But Ray was killed and had to have a ring to go into the Lodge? Are there different rules for tulpas and humans?
I would imagine so.

And remember Ray was supposed to slip the ring onto Doppelcoop - that's why he had it. Sending Ray to the Lodge was his way of telling them they had failed?

I said in previous threads - my take is that if you die, you might go to the lodge (depending on your circumstances) ... if you die with the ring on it guarantees it
I must admit, I am totally perplexed as to what the ring actually does. It's been used in so many different contexts and it seems to be multi-purpose depending on circumstances.
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mtwentz
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by mtwentz »

Harry Yallrite wrote:We will see the insurance agent from PART 1 again; the scene with Lucy explaining the "two sheriff Truman's" will now conclude with her looking at the business card he handed her, which will say "DOUGLAS JONES - Lucky 7 Insurance Agent". Cooper definitely sent that guy in there pretending to sell insurance to see if Harry was still around & get him outside.
My personal belief is 'No', but with Lynch, you never know...
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
Mr. Strawberry
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Strawberry »

LateReg wrote:I'm surprised by your reaction to this, as I usually agree with all of your recaps. Maybe you're right, and this was a "too perfect" reintroduction of Cooper. But I don't know. Cooper actually did fight his way out of it. You can tell in Part 15 that he was determined to get that fork into that socket. This whole thing is largely about his identity, that even when he's trapped in a shell of himself he still retains the traits that make him unique, and it signifies that this whole time he was hyper-aware of what was happening because Cooper was there all along. So him just snapping out of it and instantly being whole, while unexpected, seems perfect to me, as he is who he is and always will be. As well as a hilariously winking joke to go along with so many others about patience and audience participation and unpredictability: "Finally." And it occurs at the exact moment we both most expect it (after the electricity jolt) and least expect it (he's in a coma and we resign ourselves to thinking it's yet another tease with no wake-up in sight). This seemed like a very natural yet unpredictable event to me, which also gave us what we were promised and gloriously teased about ("Bear With Me") from the get-go: A Return. All I know is that it was joyous in what felt like a very sincere way to me. I hope it's real, but even if it isn't, the moment remains.

Diane was a tulpa, but isn't that also kind of perfect? We can still feel for her as she has Diane's memories, so her pain is real, what she's gone through is real. At the same time we still haven't met the real Diane, so the most mysterious main character in all of Twin Peaks has found a way to be kept under wraps. Which is pretty neat.
Thanks LateReg, that's nice of you to take the time to read my drivel. Truth is, with all the brilliant speculation and deeply insightful posts that are dropped here every day, I feel like an idiot. There are so many subtleties caught and connections made that leave me astonished at my own simple way of viewing the show. I'm a gullible simpleton that simply takes it as it comes, missing out on a lot of layering and implications. But this makes me so grateful for everyone here and all the interesting thoughts shared on a daily basis. I can't properly state just how much I appreciate everyone on the board here.

For example: Richard and Linda, two birds, one stone -> Richard on a big huge stone. I completely missed that connection, and had to see it here. In the moment I was terrified and simply caught up in the emotions brought on by the overall presentation of the events at hand. So what I got out of it were the obvious dynamics and their implications, while others were able to notice the stone for what it was, and then logically connect Linda with it, seeing into the future events of the story while unveiling a bit of what The Fireman had made reference to.

To kind of go off subject for a moment, I'm gonna be really sad when the series ends and we stop sharing with each other every day. I'm surely not the only one here that is removed from former days of steady friendships and frequent get togethers. It's not simply a matter of getting older, I don't think. Part of it is a general shift in society, and certainly part of it is personal, but technology has empowered us with the ability to communicate and share by way of online boards and texts and email, and the abundant ease of access has had an isolating effect.

It used to be a normal thing to pop over to a friend's and knock on the door unannounced. These days, those same people might find your sudden appearance to be an inconvenience, as they are "busy" shopping online, writing social media life updates, gaming alone or with strangers on the net, watching hours of TV uninterrupted, and generally hiding out from all the good things that brought us joy in not so distant times. It's like they're living in the Convenience Store.

Back to the subject at hand, I can understand liking Cooper's awakening. The thing is, I did enjoy it as its own thing. In other words I wanted him back as much as the next person, and also found his interaction with Bushnell, his "family", and the Mitchum Brothers to be very satisfying. I was happy to see them all heading to Twin Peaks as well. My problem stems from the context and the chronological placement. The way he suddenly came to only justifies all the demands people had months ago when they wanted him to snap back. It gave this odd impression, and it begged the question, "Why didn't this happen a bit sooner?" Of course there's a solid answer to this, but since I can't ask David or Mark, I'm left a bit puzzled.

Once it had gone on forever, I began to think that they were simply dangling the guy in the FBI suit before us in order to distract us from something else, and that the entire story was about to turn on its head, and I was so ready for that. That's part of the reason the scene came off with such flatness. To be predictable is not a sin, but be predictable with some serious impact if that's the direction you're taking. Having him sit up, speak directly with The One Armed Man, take a ring out of the Red Room and hand over some of his hair... is just too much. We all know that place as a secluded otherworld accessed by mysterious portals. To see him reach in like that doesn't sit well with me. Seeing Ray vanish and fade into the Red Room just feels normal, seeing Dale reach into that realm feels abnormal, and that's just how it hits me for whatever reason. The experience is different for everyone, of course.

It was as if the creators had passed the point of no return with Dale in Vegas, then rebounded to an event that should have happened earlier, when we'd already gone so far down that road that something else entirely would have been more appropriate.

Harry Yallrite wrote:Reading this review was more mentally exhausting than getting through the first 16 episodes of The Return. Not saying I wasn't entertained - but I need a nap now.
*sniff*

Aw heck, I've been told how long winded I am. Believe it or not, I try to edit down!

Harry Yallrite wrote:But first I need to brush my teeth...
"Good idea."
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Soolsma
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Soolsma »

If DoppelCoop manufactured Douglas Jones, very prone to excessive drinking and gambling, will the (possible) Douglas Jones manufactured by good Coop be a better man?
Carrie Page: "It's a long way... In those days, I was too young to know any better."
Rik Renault
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Re: RE: Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Rik Renault »

Mr. Strawberry wrote:
To kind of go off subject for a moment, I'm gonna be really sad when the series ends and we stop sharing with each other every day. I'm surely not the only one here that is removed from former days of steady friendships and frequent get togethers. It's not simply a matter of getting older, I don't think. Part of it is a general shift in society, and certainly part of it is personal, but technology has empowered us with the ability to communicate and share by way of online boards and texts and email, and the abundant ease of access has had an isolating effect.

It used to be a normal thing to pop over to a friend's and knock on the door unannounced. These days, those same people might find your sudden appearance to be an inconvenience, as they are "busy" shopping online, writing social media life updates, gaming alone or with strangers on the net, watching hours of TV uninterrupted, and generally hiding out from all the good things that brought us joy in not so distant times. It's like they're living in the Convenience Store.
:'( me too. I'm just gutted I didn't know this place existed until 10 weeks ago.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by HagbardCeline »

writersblock wrote:I think Dougie had the ring because it was supposed to be DoppelCoop's "sigil" to wear upon return... but he made Dougie wear it to give the impression it was him...

The Lodge seemed to think they were bringing the correct person back... and then, immediately, realised they had made a mistake.

I think the ring was just used to make them think he was the Doppelganger...
I think Dougie had the ring on because DoppelCoop's plan was to have the assassins at Rancho Rosa kill Dougie while he was wearing the ring, and make him go back to the lodge immediately, PREVENTING GoodCoop from coming out. Because GoodCoop came out, Dougie was forced into the Lodge a different way.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Framed_Angel »

Soolsma wrote:a better man?
Ask Eddie Vedder! :lol:
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Gabriel
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Gabriel »

Wasn't there a mention of 'Who is the dreamer?' somewhere in the show. Are Audrey's dreams somehow making this whole season happen? Hopefully we won't have her awaken and have a Star Trek: The Next Generation-type plot reset!
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Methedrome
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Methedrome »

Gabriel wrote:Wasn't there a mention of 'Who is the dreamer?' somewhere in the show. Are Audrey's dreams somehow making this whole season happen? Hopefully we won't have her awaken and have a Star Trek: The Next Generation-type plot reset!
Yes, and they even named a part after it...

Part 14 : We Are Like the Dreamer
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Voltaire
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Voltaire »

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Back to the subject at hand, I can understand liking Cooper's awakening. The thing is, I did enjoy it as its own thing. In other words I wanted him back as much as the next person, and also found his interaction with Bushnell, his "family", and the Mitchum Brothers to be very satisfying. I was happy to see them all heading to Twin Peaks as well. My problem stems from the context and the chronological placement. The way he suddenly came to only justifies all the demands people had months ago when they wanted him to snap back. It gave this odd impression, and it begged the question, "Why didn't this happen a bit sooner?" Of course there's a solid answer to this, but since I can't ask David or Mark, I'm left a bit puzzled.

Once it had gone on forever, I began to think that they were simply dangling the guy in the FBI suit before us in order to distract us from something else, and that the entire story was about to turn on its head, and I was so ready for that. That's part of the reason the scene came off with such flatness. To be predictable is not a sin, but be predictable with some serious impact if that's the direction you're taking. Having him sit up, speak directly with The One Armed Man, take a ring out of the Red Room and hand over some of his hair... is just too much. We all know that place as a secluded otherworld accessed by mysterious portals. To see him reach in like that doesn't sit well with me. Seeing Ray vanish and fade into the Red Room just feels normal, seeing Dale reach into that realm feels abnormal, and that's just how it hits me for whatever reason. The experience is different for everyone, of course.

It was as if the creators had passed the point of no return with Dale in Vegas, then rebounded to an event that should have happened earlier, when we'd already gone so far down that road that something else entirely would have been more appropriate.
This is a great articulation of how I feel about it. One of the pro-Dougie story line justifications was, "What do you just want him to snap out of it? That would be unnatural and predictable." Well that is exactly what we got. It just dragged out for a very long time. I was quite happy to see Cooper and his interactions with everyone were great. However, my next feeling was annoyance. Why couldn't this have been done this in episode 6 or 9 or something! I feel that the story they told could have been accomplished much quicker and a more robust story including Cooper would have been superior. Although the season is wonderful as a whole, it could have been better with more Cooper. We do not have any confirmation of a fourth season and so little Cooper after 25 plus years is an issue.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Manwith »

Novalis wrote:
Manwith wrote:
Dreamy Audrey wrote: We get that this line was probably meant to tells us Richard's age, but it is still wrong. Cooper is not 25 years older than Richard. GoodCoop is about 35 years older than Richard, and BadCoop has been in our world about 9 months before Richard was born, so he is 9 months older. It's not reading anything into the line, it's pointing out a mistake. Unless there is an explanation for this age discrepancy (e.g. the doppelganger was formed in the Lodge 25 years before Cooper entered it when GoodCoop was 10 years old, or Richard is a doppelganger or tulpa that was recently created) it's a mistake. There are ways to tell us a characters age without messing up another character's age.
If bad coop is cooper's shadow self per Hawk's legend I think he's as old as Cooper, not 25 years old. I think everyone has a shadow born when they are born.
Is this necessarily the case for L/F though? Remember the old tale from IE:
A little boy went out to play. When he opened his door, he saw the world. As he passed through the doorway, he caused a reflection. Evil was born. Evil was born, and followed the boy.
.
That's an interesting quote from Inland Empire but couldn't the little boy passing through the doorway to see the world be a metaphor for being born? :)
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by anthoto1 »

Voltaire wrote:Why couldn't this have been done this in episode 6 or 9 or something!
Because this wasn't the story the authors wanted to tell, that's as simple as that.
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I'm the Muffin
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by I'm the Muffin »

ThumbsUp wrote:With this last episode so heavy on tulpa exposition and explanation, I'm guessing at least one more will be created before all is said and done.

I'm thinking that it will be Laura ("Laura is the one," "I am dead yet I live," on and on and on). She could confront Bob, Mr. C, her mom, or the Mother.
Could the Fireman in episode 8 have been creating Laura's tulpa?
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by Esselgee »

I know that time is limited, but I hope that Cooper doesn't just "know" everything that he needs to do now. It would be great to see him use his investigative skills and intuition to figure things out instead of just having everything already downloaded into his head somehow. His detective skills were more prominent in season 1 and early season 2. Later in season 2, Cooper became much more reactive - just waiting for things to happen. Unfortunately, with only 2 hours to go, I'm sure they'll have given Cooper whatever shortcuts he needs to reach a conclusion.

Also, Cooper seems to be up to date on all the people and events around him while he was in the Dougie role. Is he also aware of what year it is and everything that's changed since he was trapped? Does he understand modern technology? He was able to drive a modern BMW, though I'm not sure how different that would be from a car in 1989.

Does he expect all the same people to be working at the sheriff's department in TP? Cole was surprised that Lucy was still there. Will Cooper be expecting that Harry is still the sheriff there?
Last edited by Esselgee on Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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ThumbsUp
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Post by ThumbsUp »

I'm the Muffin wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:With this last episode so heavy on tulpa exposition and explanation, I'm guessing at least one more will be created before all is said and done.

I'm thinking that it will be Laura ("Laura is the one," "I am dead yet I live," on and on and on). She could confront Bob, Mr. C, her mom, or the Mother.
Could the Fireman in episode 8 have been creating Laura's tulpa?
Maybe! Does one need a bit of DNA from the source material though? I think we can definitely expect Laura to show up in some capacity though for the finale.
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