Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

[mtwentz]

So that Great Northern just lost two of their security crew. How many more security people do they have to take up the slack? Will Ben flip out? Does he realize that Laura's old boyfriend now works for him?

I think Ben's too infatuated with Beverly to worry much about security at the Great Northern...

[TheGum]

The more I think about it I really view that Jeffries line "so you ARE Cooper." As a definite cue to possibly reevaluate the doppelgänger situation.

Perhaps instead of good vs. bad, the super ego/ego/id theory holds more water. We have lines to support both.

"The good Dale is in the lodge and he can't get out"
In favor of good v evil

"I don't NEED anything, I WANT it."
In favor of Doppelcoop as the id.

I think it makes much more sense that Dale is split apart, the guy we've been dying to have "wake up" even if woken up would not be a fully integrated person. OUR Dale is the ego who mediated between Dopplecoop's untamed and unruly desire, and Dougies child-like innocence and following the will and rules of the authority figures around him, literally an exact definition of the super ego. For the real Dale to come back, they would have to merge. Being split apart in the first place could be exactly the "anihilation of the soul" that Hawk mentions in the original series, and could link to the Black Lodge coffee cup test theory really nicely.

On the other hand, Annie may be right, and Doppelcoop may just be the totally evil version of Cooper and "good" coop is just damaged. It's definitely just as likely that Doppelcoop simply lied to Jefferies.

Either way, I believe this is a discussion we are meant to be having right now, and that we will get some kind of concrete resolution to these questions in the following three installments.

[TheGum]

Oh!
Meant to add-

Bob, of course, is the wildcard here. Controlling and harnessing something like him, with all that power may be exactly what the id of someone would most desire, or they might just be really great teammates on team Black Lodge Evil.

[Firewalkwithme91]

@TheGum

I like these ideas because they make Cooper´s dilemma a lot more interesting. It´s like with Leland: If he´s just possessed by a demon and has no agency himself, things are a lot less complex and more clean cut.

[Ragnell]

The more I think about it I really view that Jeffries line "so you ARE Cooper." As a definite cue to possibly reevaluate the doppelgänger situation.

Perhaps instead of good vs. bad, the super ego/ego/id theory holds more water. We have lines to support both.

"The good Dale is in the lodge and he can't get out"
In favor of good v evil

"I don't NEED anything, I WANT it."
In favor of Doppelcoop as the id.

I think it makes much more sense that Dale is split apart, the guy we've been dying to have "wake up" even if woken up would not be a fully integrated person. OUR Dale is the ego who mediated between Dopplecoop's untamed and unruly desire, and Dougies child-like innocence and following the will and rules of the authority figures around him, literally an exact definition of the super ego. For the real Dale to come back, they would have to merge. Being split apart in the first place could be exactly the "anihilation of the soul" that Hawk mentions in the original series, and could link to the Black Lodge coffee cup test theory really nicely.

On the other hand, Annie may be right, and Doppelcoop may just be the totally evil version of Cooper and "good" coop is just damaged. It's definitely just as likely that Doppelcoop simply lied to Jefferies.

Either way, I believe this is a discussion we are meant to be having right now, and that we will get some kind of concrete resolution to these questions in the following three installments.

I get this impression too... however, I don't think we're looking at a perfect integration here. Dale needs to defeat the doppelganger. He needs to confront this part of himself and put it under control, either through sending it to the black lodge or actually destroying the real world manifestation of it (metaphor for stopping himself from acting on unacceptable thoughts).

That was what he was supposed to do in the Lodge but instead his shadowself slipped out and I imagine that's what he needs to do here.

Personally, I'd been think of Dale as the superego. He works in law enforcment. Either way, when he wakes up he'll be both self and higher self, preparing to conquer the lowest third.

[Ragnell]

The more I think about it I really view that Jeffries line "so you ARE Cooper." As a definite cue to possibly reevaluate the doppelgänger situation.

Perhaps instead of good vs. bad, the super ego/ego/id theory holds more water. We have lines to support both.

"The good Dale is in the lodge and he can't get out"
In favor of good v evil

"I don't NEED anything, I WANT it."
In favor of Doppelcoop as the id.

I think it makes much more sense that Dale is split apart, the guy we've been dying to have "wake up" even if woken up would not be a fully integrated person. OUR Dale is the ego who mediated between Dopplecoop's untamed and unruly desire, and Dougies child-like innocence and following the will and rules of the authority figures around him, literally an exact definition of the super ego. For the real Dale to come back, they would have to merge. Being split apart in the first place could be exactly the "anihilation of the soul" that Hawk mentions in the original series, and could link to the Black Lodge coffee cup test theory really nicely.

On the other hand, Annie may be right, and Doppelcoop may just be the totally evil version of Cooper and "good" coop is just damaged. It's definitely just as likely that Doppelcoop simply lied to Jefferies.

Either way, I believe this is a discussion we are meant to be having right now, and that we will get some kind of concrete resolution to these questions in the following three installments.

I get this impression too... however, I don't think we're looking at a perfect integration here. Dale needs to defeat the doppelganger. He needs to confront this part of himself and put it under control, either through sending it to the black lodge or actually destroying the real world manifestation of it (metaphor for stopping himself from acting on unacceptable thoughts).

That was what he was supposed to do in the Lodge but instead his shadowself slipped out and I imagine that's what he needs to do here.

Personally, I'd been think of Dale as the superego. He works in law enforcment. Either way, when he wakes up he'll be both self and higher self, preparing to conquer the lowest third.

[TheGum]

Seriously LOVING all the duplicate posts in a discussion about doppelgängers

[N. Needleman]

So the Great Northern just lost two of their security crew. How many more security people do they have to take up the slack? Will Ben flip out? Does he realize that Laura's old boyfriend now works for him?

I don't think he gives a shit.

[Framed_Angel]

Some people wondered why James was arrested as well ...James also might´ve implicated himself out of loyality for his friend.

Chad seemed to acknowledge the glove. He said something to the effect of "what did that idiot with the glove do this time"? I get the impression this wasn't the first time Freddie has had a scuffle (or some other trouble) in TP.

^^YES. Thank you for pointing that out.^^
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Can anyone help me reconcile (I know; near-impossible but): how Lodge dwellers and impersonators/ doppelgangers function according to their needs/ desires:

Item A: Mr C wants "this" (a playing card with mysterious shape-form covering the usual spade)
It's implied he wants/ prefers BOB to "still be with him"

Item B: Jeffries wants "to be with BOB again"
-and by extension, for Mr C to be returned to the Black lodge

Item C: BOB wants garmonbozia, MIKE has also coveted pain & suffering as in FWWM berating BOB/Leland for stealing the 'creamed corn'

Item D: MIKE wants .... to help Dale/ DougieCoop? but why? and would Philip Gerard prefer to be not stuck in the Red Waiting Room all the time?

Item E: What do the Woodsmen want? Are they just dispatchers of terrorizing and murdering people, their other function seemingly to resuscitate the likes of Mr C. Have they little other purpose than carrying out some higher directive, which is who -- the Mother source or else an operative like Jefferies or who? Those frog-bugs in turn were enabled by Lead Woodsman's hypnotic incantations to guide one into a human vessel but at whose directive?

I have to add: What does the Mother want -- it seems blood, she/ it is bloodthirsty.
...
Who seeks the Mother/ Experiment, as in, the Experiment conducted in order to reanimate or incorporate the Mother? If Mr C doesn't want the Black Lodge, but he wants the Convenience STore? DId we just learn that unique purpose was because Jeffries was accessible there?

Also: who does or does not have a doppelganger. People & lodge dwellers we've seen
WITH: Dale, MFAP/Tree, Laura and possibly Sarah
WITHOUT: MIKE, BOB, FIREMAN (although like Gerard he's taken a new name after being "The Giant"**)
** so does having a new/ different name signify anything about having your doppelganger?

UNCERTAIN: Philip Jeffries. He may just be transformed in some other way but not sure it's a doppelganger thing.
DIane, who has displayed contrary impulses and behavior, it's been speculated has a doppelganger and I think also possibly used voice-modifier to phone Mr C masquerading as "Jeffries" in Part 3. I'm oddly in line with this last theory although I have little to back it up.

[vicksvapor77]

So the Great Northern just lost two of their security crew. How many more security people do they have to take up the slack? Will Ben flip out? Does he realize that Laura's old boyfriend now works for him?

I don't think he gives a shit.

He definitely doesn't.

[TheGum]

Also regarding the Black Lodge coffee cup theory-
Whether or not you buy into this theory, it's arguable that Dale was going to be anihilated from the get go.

Fear and Love open the doors to the black and white lodges, yes, the owl cave map was a time, but Windom Earle needed Annie to gain entry because he needed her fear. Cooper was filled with fear when he entered, fear for Annie, possibly of what was inside that place. Cooper was only able to access the lodge because of his own fear, and that may have been the key to his undoing from the start.

[Troubbble]

----------------------------------------------
Can anyone help me reconcile (I know; near-impossible but): how Lodge dwellers and impersonators/ doppelgangers function according to their needs/ desires:

Item A: Mr C wants "this" (a playing card with mysterious shape-form covering the usual spade)
It's implied he wants/ prefers BOB to "still be with him"

Item B: Jeffries wants "to be with BOB again"
-and by extension, for Mr C to be returned to the Black lodge

Item C: BOB wants garmonbozia, MIKE has also coveted pain & suffering as in FWWM berating BOB/Leland for stealing the 'creamed corn'

Item D: MIKE wants .... to help Dale/ DougieCoop? but why? and would Philip Gerard prefer to be not stuck in the Red Waiting Room all the time?

Item E: What do the Woodsmen want? Are they just dispatchers of terrorizing and murdering people, their other function seemingly to resuscitate the likes of Mr C. Have they little other purpose than carrying out some higher directive, which is who -- the Mother source or else an operative like Jefferies or who? Those frog-bugs in turn were enabled by Lead Woodsman's hypnotic incantations to guide one into a human vessel but at whose directive?

I have to add: What does the Mother want -- it seems blood, she/ it is bloodthirsty.
...
Who seeks the Mother/ Experiment, as in, the Experiment conducted in order to reanimate or incorporate the Mother? If Mr C doesn't want the Black Lodge, but he wants the Convenience STore? DId we just learn that unique purpose was because Jeffries was accessible there?

Also: who does or does not have a doppelganger. People & lodge dwellers we've seen
WITH: Dale, MFAP/Tree, Laura and possibly Sarah
WITHOUT: MIKE, BOB, FIREMAN (although like Gerard he's taken a new name after being "The Giant"**)
** so does having a new/ different name signify anything about having your doppelganger?

UNCERTAIN: Philip Jeffries. He may just be transformed in some other way but not sure it's a doppelganger thing.
DIane, who has displayed contrary impulses and behavior, it's been speculated has a doppelganger and I think also possibly used voice-modifier to phone Mr C masquerading as "Jeffries" in Part 3. I'm oddly in line with this last theory although I have little to back it up.

Pretty sure the "Jeffries" who made the phone call early-on (and later tried to have the doppelganger killed) was Mike, in actuality. Makes sense, since he "wants to be with Bob again."

Seemed clear in Part 15 that Jeffries had not been in contact with the doppelganger in the last 25 years. And I think Mike makes a lot more sense than Diane...

[zeronumber]

Episode 10: Carl Serenades, and coffee cup breaks window.

Epsiode 11: Becky gets her gun. (Window not broken?)

Episode 13: Becky calls Shelly. (Window not broken?)

Episode 15 : Cyril informs Carl.
(Window broken. Mended with cardboard.)

"...is it future? ...or is it past?"

Sent from my NEC-NE-201A1A using Tapatalk

Isn't the broken window/boarding from the coffee cup being thrown out the window?

True. In Ep 10. Interrupting Carls music.

Sent from my NEC-NE-201A1A using Tapatalk

[TheGum]

Pretty sure the "Jeffries" who made the phone call early-on (and later tried to have the doppelganger killed) was Mike, in actuality. Makes sense, since he "wants to be with Bob again."

Seemed clear in Part 15 that Jeffries had not been in contact with the doppelganger in the last 25 years. And I think Mike makes a lot more sense than Diane...

I tend to agree with this, as it makes the most sense motivationally. There are a couple things that confuse me however-
1- the voice says you're going back in tomorrow, I will be with Bob again. Why would Mike tip his hand? Is he like, monologueing like some comic book villain here!?
2-he mentions that he spoke with Garland Briggs. Why would Mike speak to Briggs? What about?

And let's not forget that Doppelcoop has something to do with Hastings as well that hasn't been explained. He shows up and kills his wife saying "you follow human nature perfectly." What's the motivation here? We saw The woodsman in the neighboring cell earlier in the episode so we can assume that he informed Doppelcoop of the situation, I'm assuming they're aligned since they save him later. But if the woodsmen kill Hastings himself later, why didn't they just knock off his wife too?

[vicksvapor77]

Episode 10: Carl Serenades, and coffee cup breaks window.

Epsiode 11: Becky gets her gun. (Window not broken?)

Episode 13: Becky calls Shelly. (Window not broken?)

Episode 15 : Cyril informs Carl.
(Window broken. Mended with cardboard.)

"...is it future? ...or is it past?"

Sent from my NEC-NE-201A1A using Tapatalk

Isn't the broken window/boarding from the coffee cup being thrown out the window?

True. In Ep 10. Interrupting Carls music.

Sent from my NEC-NE-201A1A using Tapatalk

I watched that scene in part 11 again. Pretty sure you can see the hole in the window as Becky runs out of the trailer to meet Shelly?