, I said I hoped when the show ends and I'm proved right, that people will come back on here and acknowledge it.
The thing is, with a show like twin peaks (or alot of music or art or books), it doesn't really matter whether x or y theory is right or wrong, what matters is that the show ( piece of music/ art / book whatever) has sufficient ' poetic ambiguity ' to allow different people to come to it from different perspectives, and draw their own ( sometimes conflicting) conclusions or have different interpretations of the same scene. What the artist/ film-maker/ composer/ author intended might not be what some people take from it. Some people might even find things and make connections which the artist ( etc ) did not think of themselves. So to me, talking about ' right ' and ' wrong' , and insisting on one ' true ' reading that excludes other readings, is, as you put it ' missing the point'
sewhite2000 wrote:Case in point: the Big Ed scene was lovely and sad and poignant, and I wanted people to come on here and talk about how his loneliness made them feel and maybe speculate about what happened between Ed and Norma and Nadine in the last 25 years, and a few people did, but WAY more talked about how maybe Big Ed's reflection moved and used a lot of pretentious phrases like "once seen, this cannot be unseen!" and "THIS is significant!" and how it meant Ed was possessed because he's also eating creamed corn (he's not) and how time is folding in on itself, and it just breaks my heart that people are focusing on little details that I believe are going to amount to nothing.
With regards to Ed/Norma/Nadine, my hunch was that the turn of events in episode 29 did irreparable damage to that triangle.
Thanks those of you who agree with me. I seriously don't want to come across as a jerk. The anonymity of the internet is dangerous. In real life, I'm about the most mild-mannered, deferential person you'd ever meet!
sewhite2000 wrote:Case in point: the Big Ed scene was lovely and sad and poignant, and I wanted people to come on here and talk about how his loneliness made them feel and maybe speculate about what happened between Ed and Norma and Nadine in the last 25 years, and a few people did, but WAY more talked about how maybe Big Ed's reflection moved and used a lot of pretentious phrases like "once seen, this cannot be unseen!" and "THIS is significant!" and how it meant Ed was possessed because he's also eating creamed corn (he's not) and how time is folding in on itself, and it just breaks my heart that people are focusing on little details that I believe are going to amount to nothing.
With regards to Ed/Norma/Nadine, my hunch was that the turn of events in episode 29 did irreparable damage to that triangle.
I'm actually struggling to remember how all that ended. Been a long time since I've seen that episode and my memory is much sharper about other characters I was more interested in, I guess. Would you mind summarizing briefly? I vaguely remember Nadine snapping back to her old self and very unhappy that Ed and Norma were standing next to each other, but that's about all I remember.
sewhite2000 wrote:Case in point: the Big Ed scene was lovely and sad and poignant, and I wanted people to come on here and talk about how his loneliness made them feel and maybe speculate about what happened between Ed and Norma and Nadine in the last 25 years, and a few people did, but WAY more talked about how maybe Big Ed's reflection moved and used a lot of pretentious phrases like "once seen, this cannot be unseen!" and "THIS is significant!" and how it meant Ed was possessed because he's also eating creamed corn (he's not) and how time is folding in on itself, and it just breaks my heart that people are focusing on little details that I believe are going to amount to nothing.
With regards to Ed/Norma/Nadine, my hunch was that the turn of events in episode 29 did irreparable damage to that triangle.
I'm actually struggling to remember how all that ended. Been a long time since I've seen that episode and my memory is much sharper about other characters I was more interested in, I guess. Would you mind summarizing briefly? I vaguely remember Nadine snapping back to her old self and very unhappy that Ed and Norma were standing next to each other, but that's about all I remember.
Correct, Nadine had snapped back to her old self and broke down crying and screaming when she saw Ed and Norma sitting next to each other on the couch (I believe they had been holding hands right before this). Mike was also there, and apologized to Ed for letting things get out of hand. Ed certainly looked defeated.
(Oh, and she was also screaming about her drape runners, so I assume this is the one thing she could fall back on when all was said and done).
Last edited by cgs027 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
When it comes to time and Twin Peaks... Lynch opened that can of worms by establishing that time in the Lodges isn't necessarily bound to time in the human world. He did this in the original series by establishing Laura and Dale had the same dream a week or two apart from each other. He did this in FWWM by having Annie appear in Laura's dream. It's how the seers know the future in Twin Peaks, because the Lodges transcend time. "Through darkness of future past" "Is it future or is it past?" He INVITED us to speculate about time.
Then in this season, we get Maj. Briggs' body established as being the wrong age. We get several numbers, one of which is specified as a time that shows up on a watch worn by a Lodge Spirit. We see Dale thrown backwards in time at the end of Part 2. We see Dale interacting with the out-of-sync Naido in an entire sequence where time seems to be backing up and restarting.
And now as the action speeds up, the story is being told non-sequentially and there's multiple references to time and out of sync "mistakes". After he invited us to speculate about time.
I personally don't buy any of the alternate timeline theories. I think there's one timeline, but that certain events in the past may hinge on events in the future and that the Lodge entities are not limited to just moving in one direction in the fourth dimension. I do think something wonky is going on in Twin Peaks, but I don't think out of chronology storytelling indicates the story is actually happening out of order.
That said, I don't think people focusing on the time effects and/or mistakes and speculating about them is ignoring the art. It's just a different way to appreciate it, and Lynch did invite us to look at different ways of perceiving time. Then he started PLAYING with time. It's not unreasonable or missing the point to start discussing the various explanations for time being out of whack.
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I had a reaction to that line, too, but the opposite reaction -- I wondered if Jacoby would unwittingly end up being an agent of darkness, bringing about some sort of catastrophic plot twist with his "foot soldiers" like Nadine. The Jacoby material feels VERY Frostian to me, and while Mark likely agrees to an extent with a lot of the material Jacoby is spouting (as do I, not to get political), Mark is also a healthy skeptic. Jacoby seems to have become a fanatic in his old age -- and indeed, even in his younger days judging by the excerpts from his "research" into Native culture in TSHoTP (material which I think definitely paints him as a nutjob, albeit one with some valid points to make). Plus, the anti-capitalist infomercial nature of his broadcast is obviously intended to be ironic and to make him look like a bit of a hypocrite, albeit a well-meaning one. And let's face it, Nadine has always been a kook -- the very fact that she buys into the Dr. Amp shtick should tell us something about how we're meant to feel about it. I dunno, it's hard to articulate, but hearing her use the words "foot soldier" gave me chills. It feels cultish.
I kind of got that vibe too. The choice of words ("foot soldier") does feel evil on a gut level. I guess I still want to read some kind of symbolism into the gold shovel. I want the gold shovel to be something good or positive. Maybe I am just as gullible as Nadine?
Audrey Horne wrote:interesting about Jacoby is Lynch and Frost have basically opened up the Return with him getting the mysterious package. The unveiling and continued use of the shovel has carried tremendous weight this season. But maybe all it truly means is the metaphor for people like Cooper, Audrey, Ben, Ed to shovel themselves out of the shit. They have to rely on themselves, find their own personal golden shovel.
I also think a big part of it was subverting people's expectations. I'm sure I'm not the only one who had all sorts of crazy ideas once we saw those shovels being painted in an almost ritualistic manner (alchemy, Jacoby may know something about the lodges that would necessitate this, etc...). And then to have the big reveal be... "shovel your way out out the shit" for $29.99! Who knows, there may be more in store (I personally don't think so) -- even if not, it's still pretty hilarious... The shovels are not what they seem.
Audrey Horne wrote:interesting about Jacoby is Lynch and Frost have basically opened up the Return with him getting the mysterious package. The unveiling and continued use of the shovel has carried tremendous weight this season. But maybe all it truly means is the metaphor for people like Cooper, Audrey, Ben, Ed to shovel themselves out of the shit. They have to rely on themselves, find their own personal golden shovel.
I also think a big part of it was subverting people's expectations. I'm sure I'm not the only one who had all sorts of crazy ideas once we saw those shovels being painted in an almost ritualistic manner (alchemy, Jacoby may know something about the lodges that would necessitate this, etc...). And then to have the big reveal be... "shovel your way out out the shit" for $29.99! Who knows, there may be more in store (I personally don't think so) -- even if not, it's still pretty hilarious... The shovels are not what they seem.
I think there's a level or irony that the hippie who you would expect to have a great interest in the Lodge and spirits, Dr. Jacoby, knows jack all about the Lodge. I think part of the implication is that human knowledge is limited, and even "experts" like Jacoby or the people from the Into the Zone website don't have a clue what's really happening. It also implies we should distrust our spiritual or psychological gurus because knowledge is so unobtainable that even if they want to know what's going on, they can't find the knowledge they seek.
("Don't listen to the David Lynch foundation, folks. The old man's hasn't a clue what he's talking about!")
Last edited by Manwith on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
One thing that I doubt will ever get mentioned again in the show, but that I would love to know, is why the security guard wasn't at his post in the box room in NY (unless I totally missed it), thereby allowing the two young'uns to break the rules.
28renton wrote:One thing that I doubt will ever get mentioned again in the show, but that I would love to know, is why the security guard wasn't at his post in the box room in NY (unless I totally missed it), thereby allowing the two young'uns to break the rules.
I suspect the Billionaire wanted the kids to die so sent the guard away. (The experiment being whether the creature would come out and eat them.) I have nothing to base that on, though!
Audrey Horne wrote:interesting about Jacoby is Lynch and Frost have basically opened up the Return with him getting the mysterious package. The unveiling and continued use of the shovel has carried tremendous weight this season. But maybe all it truly means is the metaphor for people like Cooper, Audrey, Ben, Ed to shovel themselves out of the shit. They have to rely on themselves, find their own personal golden shovel.
I also think a big part of it was subverting people's expectations. I'm sure I'm not the only one who had all sorts of crazy ideas once we saw those shovels being painted in an almost ritualistic manner (alchemy, Jacoby may know something about the lodges that would necessitate this, etc...). And then to have the big reveal be... "shovel your way out out the shit" for $29.99! Who knows, there may be more in store (I personally don't think so) -- even if not, it's still pretty hilarious... The shovels are not what they seem.
I think there's a level or irony that the hippie who you would expect to have a great interest in the Lodge and spirits, Dr. Jacoby, knows jack all about the Lodge. I think part of the implication is that human knowledge is limited, and even "experts" like Jacoby or the people from the Into the Zone website don't have a clue what's really happening. It also implies we should distrust our spiritual or psychological gurus because knowledge is so unobtainable that even if they want to know what's going on, they can't find the knowledge they seek.
("Don't listen to the David Lynch foundation, folks. The old man's hasn't a clue what he's talking about!")
As I recall in The Secret of History of Twin Peaks, Jacoby expressed an awareness of BOB and a belief in his possession of Leland. Also, he participated in some kind of highly restricted native mushroom ceremony (or something, I've forgotten) where had visions and came to some very rudimentary understanding of the existence of the Lodges. But I believe a recurring theme of the show is we humans are really desperately in over our heads in trying to mess with this stuff. Look at the fate of Windom Earle, who was highly knowledgeable about the Lodge, and how much good did that do him? Things haven't gone well for Hastings or Major Briggs, either, and Gordon is probably damn lucky he didn't get sucked into the Lodge. Cooper is probably very lucky to have ever gotten out, but he's still stuck in DougieCoop mode.
cgs027 wrote:
I also think a big part of it was subverting people's expectations. I'm sure I'm not the only one who had all sorts of crazy ideas once we saw those shovels being painted in an almost ritualistic manner (alchemy, Jacoby may know something about the lodges that would necessitate this, etc...). And then to have the big reveal be... "shovel your way out out the shit" for $29.99! Who knows, there may be more in store (I personally don't think so) -- even if not, it's still pretty hilarious... The shovels are not what they seem.
I think there's a level or irony that the hippie who you would expect to have a great interest in the Lodge and spirits, Dr. Jacoby, knows jack all about the Lodge. I think part of the implication is that human knowledge is limited, and even "experts" like Jacoby or the people from the Into the Zone website don't have a clue what's really happening. It also implies we should distrust our spiritual or psychological gurus because knowledge is so unobtainable that even if they want to know what's going on, they can't find the knowledge they seek.
("Don't listen to the David Lynch foundation, folks. The old man's hasn't a clue what he's talking about!")
As I recall in The Secret of History of Twin Peaks, Jacoby expressed an awareness of BOB and a belief in his possession of Leland. Also, he participated in some kind of highly restricted native mushroom ceremony (or something, I've forgotten) where had visions and came to some very rudimentary understanding of the existence of the Lodges. But I believe a recurring theme of the show is we humans are really desperately in over our heads in trying to mess with this stuff. Look at the fate of Windom Earle, who was highly knowledgeable about the Lodge, and how much good did that do him? Things haven't gone well for Hastings or Major Briggs, either, and Gordon is probably damn lucky he didn't get sucked into the Lodge. Cooper is probably very lucky to have ever gotten out, but he's still stuck in DougieCoop mode.
From what I recall of Secret History, Jacoby is aware that Leland said he was posessed, presumably one of the cops told him. Jacoby takes it seriously because he wrote a book on the beliefs of indigenous people and lived among them, but Jacoby has no inside knowledge and doesn't even say that it's necessarily true, just that it could be true, that the native people's he's studied would think it was true.
I also don't recall Jacoby knowing about the Lodge (though my memory of the book is not perfect). I mean, Jacoby took drugs and had spiritual visions when living with the native people, but we don't yet have any indication that drugs in the Twin Peaks universe make you in tune with the lodge. I guess we'll see where Jerry's plotline is going, but usually drugged people in Twin Peaks are just not well, not more spiritual or insightful. It seems to me that they've made an effort of show Jacoby as clueless, rather than helpful. He never is able to offer assistance to Cooper in the Laura Palmer case, and he never has any insight on Bob or anyone else.
They've avoided any hint that Jacoby knows anything about what's going on supernaturally in Twin Peaks this season. It would be a matter of great interest to him to learn about the lodge, but there's never been any indication that he has any method of learning anything about the woods.
“I believe a recurring theme of the show is we humans are really desperately in over our heads in trying to mess with this stuff.”
An interesting point, although it’s rather counterintuitive to have a mystery series where a key theme is that some knowledge - in fact, arguably the most consequential or meaningful knowledge! — is forbidden or unknowable. After all, Cooper is first and foremost a detective. His purpose is to uncover new information, information that criminals would prefer remain hidden. Like him, the audience is watching in order to absorb information and learn more along the journey.
And at certain points - perhaps more in the original series - connecting or communing with the spiritual world, intuition or something beyond rational science is seen as a good thing: the Log Lady, the clues and warnings from the Giant, Major Briggs’ quiet wisdom, Hawk’s memory of his culture’s legends, and of course, Cooper awakening convinced his surreal dream is a code to the killer’s identity, and not just a side effect of bad clams for dinner.
(Although maybe even the spirits themselves face limits on disclosing knowledge; "This is all I am allowed to say." -- The Giant, indicating that even he answers to someone who limits what he can tell Cooper.)
As for the sad fate of Major Briggs, I think Lynch and Frost would have written a different fate for him if Don Davis was still alive. Can’t prove it, just a gut feeling and Davis’ remarks, before his death, that if there was a season three, he would have played a major role in rescuing Cooper.
Having said that… has any contact with the spiritual world turned out well for any character in The Return? Only Dougie, it would seem…
Since I'm still very confused about what's happened to Jeffries (or even if Jeffries is Jeffries), I'm unsure how his interactions with the Lodge have ultimately turned out.
