Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

Moderators: Jerry Horne, Brad D, Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross

User avatar
Deep Thought
RR Diner Member
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:05 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:07 pm

mirror.jpg
mirror.jpg (195.39 KiB) Viewed 4770 times

A noticeable drop in exposure on the metal container (but not its shadow), and on the metal door to the storage building in the background (along with overlaying shadows). Otherwise, the images look identical other than the mirroring.
There's your roast beef and cheese.
User avatar
referendum
RR Diner Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:29 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:00 pm

about this repeated shot.
there is a funny story about luis bunuel that his son tells. Alot of shots were repeated in '' the exterminating angel''. First of all he had some bother with the studio cutting them out. Then later i think ( if i remember right) some cinemas even cut them out because they thought they had a faulty print.

(they didn't)

Then later some reviewers complained because they thought it was a crap edit.

(it wasn't)

It was just that people got really bothered about using the same shot twice, as if it was breaking the 4th wall or something. This was 53 years ago.
''let's not overthink this opportunity''
User avatar
Ragnell
RR Diner Member
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:50 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:06 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:Doesn't he do the same thing in the casino


It's not the same. He's not being pulled in a different direction by anything. He's given the idea to play a game. He sees a man demonstrate HOW to do so, but there are rows and rows of machines to choose from. The only distinguishing feature is the little vision, and he follows it to the closest machiens. When offered resistance from the old lady, he moves on.

In this ep, Bushnell has his hand on his arm and is guiding him in one direction, and he pulls free. If you watch, you can see Bushnell try and pull him back. He offers resistence. Dale Cooper's willpower is applied to the situation for the first time. This is his first real decision.

Framed_Angel wrote:Since Janey-E has been like DougieCoop's guide for practical day-to-day like getting to the office, as well as stepping in as his protector to fend off the loan shark's two goons for example -- then, becoming self-actualized as a thing like Following The Cherry Pie does seem significant. I wish we'd seen how that transaction went. The purchase of pie happened offscreen, so all we saw was One-Armed Gerard beckoning. At the time I was clueless what kind of shop it was, no idea a bakery. Until I read comments here I didn't know where the pie came from. Someone else mentioned seeing a Naido lookalike sitting near there too, so I tend to miss fleeting details, but recall impressionable moments.

How many times earlier has Philip Gerard appeared to DougieCoop? I'm only remembering the "Wake Up" scene. Did Dougie repeat it back to him like he does everyone else's, the ends of their sentences, "Wake up"? When was the other time he saw Gerard in a vision-like situation? I'm curious what people think about Dougie rubbing his jaw during the dining scene/Part 11, which reminded me of a moment from waaaay earlier in the season.


This is the third vision. The first was in Ep 4, where Dale watches him. Gerard tells him he was tricked, and now "one of you must die." He doesn't repeat anything Gerard says, but when the vision ends he suddenly becomes aware that he has to go to the bathroom, and reacts to the full bladder.

Second time was the "Wake up. Don't die." scene. Dale just watches, does not repeat anything. But it's strange. Prior to the vision, Janey-E leaves Dale with the instruction to do his work on the case files. It's only AFTER he sees the vision that he opens the first case file and starts working.

I think, because he's spent 25 years in the Black Lodge where everyone speaks backwards, he readily understands what Gerard is saying. I think the communication problems may stem from that, it's been so long since he's heard regular speaking he has to really listen to even slightly understand and repeat back to try and get used to the words. I suspect he's been getting the bulk of his instructions and understanding from people via his natural intuition/empathy and not from readily understanding the conversation.

Framed_Angel wrote:And why did Dougie start crying that random moment while Sonny Jim was waiting out in the car in Part 4 or 5?


I haven't decided on an interpretation of this yet. Empathy? Thinks its all just a lodge vision and is thinking about all he's lost? Has a premonition about what's going to go on with this family? Fully understands what Gerard told him, and realizes the boy's father has been reduced to his core element and will never return? If there's any clarification here, I think it needs to wait until Dale regains his senses and we get an idea of what's going through his head.

Framed_Angel wrote: There's so little time spent with any given character that when we meet someone who gets as much screen time as the Mitchem bros or Candie, often we're ready to assign them special significance -- I'm sticking with my self-actualization theme for now and enjoying as I did while watching Part 10 and rewatching: Candie is her own character and her mystery is her own. A published interview** with Shiels has her telling of an abused past for her character Candie. Mystical affiliations were not part of it, nor did I get any whiff of the mystical for her. SOme people are mysterious in their human nature. I think there's more to learn about her significance to the story overall, although that could be said about many of the characters~
------
** I think the interview was at vulture.com


I hard about the interview, haven't read it fully (but someone on a podcast read a part where she watched the show and found out that Belushi had a line that supported her idea! Which is really cool.) But that's nto what I meant.

I don't mean Candie is a lodge spirit, or a doppelganger, or possessed IN-STORY. I'm talking about her narrative function. Directors leave ion characters for a reason. Usually, they'll cut anyone who isn't vital to the plot but Lynch isn't like that. He leaves people in for atmosphere, aesthetic, humor and resonance. I don't think Candie's only function is atmosphere or aesthetic. Certainly, she's strange. Certainly, she's beautiful. She absolutely adds to atmosphere and aesthetic.

And while yes she is very funny I think Candie is there for RESONANCE. When I say she's a mirror, I mean she is a character who reflects Dale's experience so that the audience will get a double-dose of it through two characters and therefore understand the theme better. That's why I think the fly-swatting was really in. Not just as a bit of comedy or even JUST for the cut to heal but so that we can see a little story that reflects Dougie-Dale's interaction with the brothers. That's why she spends that time talking to Tony in the casino while the brothers watch on the monitors complain about how long it takes. That's why I think she's held up by traffic on her way to the party in the last scene, because its a reflection on how Dougie-Dale is currently caught up in all the events and buzz of Las Vegas before he can get on the road and get back to Twin Peaks.

She might have a plot purpose, or more to do, but honestly I think the point of having her there is to underscore what's going on with Dale and possibly preview his next stage of development. Becoming like a normal functioning person... who's been traumatized and seems perpetually distracted by something.

And bringing up that interview makes me think of one other Candie, Mandie and Sandie thing. For some bizarre reason, the brothers only ask Candie questions, and only send Candie to fetch visitors. If all THREE of them suffered from being trafficked and were rescued by the Mitchen Brothers and placed in this sweet gig where they get to stand around decoratively and serve drinks... maybe Candie is actually the most together and communicative of the 3. We haven't seen the other two talk AT ALL. Maybe they're nonverbal.
User avatar
sylvia_north
RR Diner Member
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:41 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:09 pm

Deep Thought wrote:A noticeable drop in exposure on the metal container (but not its shadow), and on the metal door to the storage building in the background (along with overlaying shadows). Otherwise, the images look identical other than the mirroring.


I posted that on pg 35 :)

Are there more occurences of this other than the plane?


referendum wrote:about this repeated shot.
there is a funny story about luis bunuel that his son tells. Alot of shots were repeated in '' the exterminating angel''. First of all he had some bother with the studio cutting them out. Then later i think ( if i remember right) some cinemas even cut them out because they thought they had a faulty print.

(they didn't)

Then later some reviewers complained because they thought it was a crap edit.

(it wasn't)

It was just that people got really bothered about using the same shot twice, as if it was breaking the 4th wall or something. This was 53 years ago.


The Sonny Jim in bed and Janey sandwich repeat shots really bother me, someone suggested the sandwich was a MD reference?
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
User avatar
Pinky
RR Diner Member
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:21 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Pinky » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:15 pm

Go to the end scene in the club, and look at MacLachlan's gaze starting when the old lady says 'i've thought of you everyday..' The best i've ever seen him, heartbreaking.
User avatar
AJPRR2GO
Roadhouse Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:11 pm

Re: RE: Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby AJPRR2GO » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:15 pm

Ragnell wrote:1) There's something really significant I have's seen anyone point out yet: Dougie-Dale made a decision. In the past we've seen him distracted and interested in things while being guided, but he always gave way to the people physically directing him. The one time he broke free of someone's grip was to push Janey-E out of the way to block Ike the Spike, and that could be attributed to muscle memory. Other than that he always lets someone direct him.

But here, he saw the One-Armed Man and broke free of Bushnell's grip. You can see Bushnell resist a little but he just breaks free. Did not react to his name being called, which is actually unusual, in the last few eps he usually stops and looks. No, he goes straight for that vision of the One-Armed Man. He PRIORITIZES the Red Room vision over Bushnell's interference.

That is HUGE. In fact, that's what makes what happens so SATISFYING. Because that CHOICE, possibly the first time he's had two options and prioritized one, is what saves his life. He follows his intuition over physical pressure. It's beautiful.

And then the response is due to the choices of the Mitchem Brothers. To accept the message of the dream and act accordingly, and as a result they get a $30 million dollar payout and have a lovely dinner with a new friend. We know the Mitchems hsave the potential for great violence and great mercy, we've seen it with the Pit Boss and with the Showgirls. They choose to go with mercy, faith and dreams and that makes this story beautiful.

2) Candie, and I'm still open to her having other purposes but I'm sure this is one, is a feminine mirror of Dale. She hurts Rodney in the last episode, makes a cut. When Dale first visited the casino, he caused some minor harm to the Mitchem Brothers by getting their money unfairly. A small, accidental injury that's barely noticeable in both cases. But with Candie, he just waves it off. When the injury Candie made is HEALED, it opens the door for Rodney to make the same decision and waive off the small injury from Dougie-Dale. Which is why at the end Candie is so prominently featured, and so happy. She arrived late but really, Dougie-Dale's been a little late too. There is SO MUCH happening, and so many big machines and people moving around him.

Candie's spaciness relates her to Dale, and I suspect when Dale wakes up he may bear some slight resemblance to or pass through a phase where he acts like Candie, clearly possessing agency and present inside of himself but spending most of his time on a different wavelength and being a little slow to communicate at times.

3) The Old Lady at thge end is there to underline all of this. She started off hostile, but paid attention and then ACCEPTED Dale's abilities and intuition, followed them, and came out better for it. The story isn't so much that EVERYONE who encounters Dale ends up better off, but that those who encounter him with an open mind and an open heart, who can bring themselves to accept what he offers, will be richer in the end. Provided they, like Dale, choose to prioritize their intuition, their inner selves, over the way the physical world is directing them.
He also chooses not to drink on the second "cheers" that they all have.
The shot is from behind but you can clearly see him look at his glass and then disregard it and turn his full attention back to the cherry pie.
1st cheers he drinks. 2nd cheers he elected not to.

Sent from my BBB100-2 using Tapatalk
User avatar
AJPRR2GO
Roadhouse Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:11 pm

Re: RE: Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby AJPRR2GO » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:20 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:
firefly2193 wrote:So far the emotional core of the show has been the Dougie storyline. And so far I'm not quite sure *what* that story is going to be. I sincerely hope what happens is that it takes something that truly gets at the core of Dale's character - perhaps seeing Audrey or Annie in danger - to 'wake him up'. I would love the idea that silly aesthetic things like coffee and cherry pie aren't enough, and it takes something of emotional weight to return Dale to who he was. If its just a story of a man slowly returning to his character by drinking coffee and eating cherry pie....that would be a disappointment for me. Fingers crossed.


I think that Dale will not awake because of external circumstances. He will awake on 10/2. However that will simply mean that Dale's intelligence is back, with his deductive powers and his intelligence. As for his old emotions? They will never come back as if nothing happened; his will be a struggle to prevent total madness after 25years in the lodge and after losing the best years of his life.
At that point some external circumstance (Audrey? double r coffee?) can save his sanity, but I fear that he will be forever on the verge of lovecraftian madness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I actually think the reverse of this.
I think he will be left with the memories of his doppelganger, as if he had lived them, and will struggle to come to terms with all of the evil that "he" did.
Or, maybe not.

Sent from my BBB100-2 using Tapatalk
User avatar
Ragnell
RR Diner Member
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:50 am

Re: RE: Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:21 pm

AJPRR2GO wrote:He also chooses not to drink on the second "cheers" that they all have.
The shot is from behind but you can clearly see him look at his glass and then disregard it and turn his full attention back to the cherry pie.
1st cheers he drinks. 2nd cheers he elected not to.

Sent from my BBB100-2 using Tapatalk


Oooo, I missed that. Dale never drank or smoked, his only vices were caffeine, sugar and married women.

Meaning Caroline and Janey-E, of course. Though Annie WAS married to God before she moved back to Twin Peaks and met Dale.
Snailhead
Great Northern Member
Posts: 547
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:45 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Snailhead » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:26 pm

Pretty sure we saw Dale drink beer at the Roadhouse and Great Northern Bar in S2 a few times?
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3159
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:27 pm

It's always interested me that Dale is rarely seen drinking alcohol in the original show. Even when he's holding an alcoholic beverage, we rarely see him take a sip. For instance, in the Black Yukon Sucker Punch scene, he merely regards his glass while everyone else imbibes. I do believe we saw him actually take a swig or two at some point (perhaps when he's sharing a beer with Hawk and discussing dreamselves?) and he does join everyone in saying he wants a drink after Dwayne holds Lana at gunpoint, but for the most part, there seems to have been a conscious effort to avoid showing him drink alcohol for whatever reason. I wonder if it was something Kyle decided on.
User avatar
Ragnell
RR Diner Member
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:50 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:31 pm

Snailhead wrote:Pretty sure we saw Dale drink beer at the Roadhouse and Great Northern Bar in S2 a few times?


I swear I got the idea somewhere he didn't drink alcohol. Might be misremembering a line or something, though.
User avatar
HagbardCeline
RR Diner Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 12:53 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:36 pm

Did anyone else think it was odd that after Carl summons the VW Van driver, you never get a clear look at the driver? The windshield as it drives towards you is wiped out by glare, then when it switches to inside the vehicle, you only see the back of the driver, who doesn't interact with Carl at all. I wonder if it means this person will be a surprise reveal, or whether they wanted to reserve the right to recast the person if they need to. (This happened in some productions that I've been involved with, where a stunt-man or background actor portrays the character in a non-essential scene, then is replaced by another actor when they have dialogue and what-not later).
User avatar
The Gazebo
RR Diner Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:34 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:36 pm

Ragnell wrote:
Snailhead wrote:Pretty sure we saw Dale drink beer at the Roadhouse and Great Northern Bar in S2 a few times?


I swear I got the idea somewhere he didn't drink alcohol. Might be misremembering a line or something, though.


Him and the great JJW were drinking buddies for five minutes, weren't they?
User avatar
Rudagger
RR Diner Member
Posts: 337
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:29 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Rudagger » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:39 pm

Ragnell wrote:
Snailhead wrote:Pretty sure we saw Dale drink beer at the Roadhouse and Great Northern Bar in S2 a few times?


I swear I got the idea somewhere he didn't drink alcohol. Might be misremembering a line or something, though.


For what it's worth, when Leland has his trial (or maybe it's for Leo Johnson?) at the Roadhouse, the Judge orders himself, Harry and Coop a drink. I think Coop noticeably doesn't even sip the think. So, maybe that's where you're getting it from.
User avatar
Deep Thought
RR Diner Member
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:05 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:48 pm

sylvia_north wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:A noticeable drop in exposure on the metal container (but not its shadow), and on the metal door to the storage building in the background (along with overlaying shadows). Otherwise, the images look identical other than the mirroring.


I posted that on pg 35 :)


Ah ha! I was reading earlier on my ipad which doesn't load the darn pictures for some reason. I thought I would be nice and post a picture of your observation, lol, oops.

Watching the scenes again, they are not the same shot reversed after all. It is definitely two separate takes. The woodsman reacts with slight alarm when Albert points him out to Cole, but is calm when Diane see him. It seems this here show may reward careful viewing!
There's your roast beef and cheese.

Return to “Parts Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests