Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3680
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

sewhite2000 wrote:The more we talk about this original script for Ep 29, the more I am sure that I once read it somewhere. I definitely remember the cut Leo scene exactly as you describe it. Was this thing ever published somewhere? Did I read it online somewhere? It was a very long time ago. My memory is fuzzy, but I absolutely did read it.
Here ya go: http://www.glastonberrygrove.net/texts/script29.html

That scene as written always amused me because after we hear Leo screaming offscreen, we then inexplicably hear gunshots (!!!). I have this great mental image of Hawk picking off the spiders one by one with super-precise shots, saving Leo's life.
User avatar
Henrys Hair
RR Diner Member
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:28 am
Contact:

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by Henrys Hair »

trismegistus wrote:
bob_wooler wrote:
Thatfabulousalien wrote:
OMG, FWWM reference!!! :mrgreen:
Firstly, it wasn't Sycmore Trees we heard (it was, as someone mentioned, a New Order tune), secondly, Sycamore Trees weren't even in FWWM at all, was it (though, oddly, it is on the FWWM OST album)?
Actually Sycamore Trees is in FWWM but it's an instrumental. You can hear it after Leland walks into the sycamore trees and enters the red room. And weirdly enough Little Jimmy Scott is listed as the performer in the end credits.
There's one line of vocal that can be heard very faintly in FWWM.

Loved this episode - particularly the cherry pie being served and a Mitchum Brother saying 'Finally!'
User avatar
Ragnell
RR Diner Member
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:50 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by Ragnell »

1) There's something really significant I have's seen anyone point out yet: Dougie-Dale made a decision. In the past we've seen him distracted and interested in things while being guided, but he always gave way to the people physically directing him. The one time he broke free of someone's grip was to push Janey-E out of the way to block Ike the Spike, and that could be attributed to muscle memory. Other than that he always lets someone direct him.

But here, he saw the One-Armed Man and broke free of Bushnell's grip. You can see Bushnell resist a little but he just breaks free. Did not react to his name being called, which is actually unusual, in the last few eps he usually stops and looks. No, he goes straight for that vision of the One-Armed Man. He PRIORITIZES the Red Room vision over Bushnell's interference.

That is HUGE. In fact, that's what makes what happens so SATISFYING. Because that CHOICE, possibly the first time he's had two options and prioritized one, is what saves his life. He follows his intuition over physical pressure. It's beautiful.

And then the response is due to the choices of the Mitchem Brothers. To accept the message of the dream and act accordingly, and as a result they get a $30 million dollar payout and have a lovely dinner with a new friend. We know the Mitchems hsave the potential for great violence and great mercy, we've seen it with the Pit Boss and with the Showgirls. They choose to go with mercy, faith and dreams and that makes this story beautiful.

2) Candie, and I'm still open to her having other purposes but I'm sure this is one, is a feminine mirror of Dale. She hurts Rodney in the last episode, makes a cut. When Dale first visited the casino, he caused some minor harm to the Mitchem Brothers by getting their money unfairly. A small, accidental injury that's barely noticeable in both cases. But with Candie, he just waves it off. When the injury Candie made is HEALED, it opens the door for Rodney to make the same decision and waive off the small injury from Dougie-Dale. Which is why at the end Candie is so prominently featured, and so happy. She arrived late but really, Dougie-Dale's been a little late too. There is SO MUCH happening, and so many big machines and people moving around him.

Candie's spaciness relates her to Dale, and I suspect when Dale wakes up he may bear some slight resemblance to or pass through a phase where he acts like Candie, clearly possessing agency and present inside of himself but spending most of his time on a different wavelength and being a little slow to communicate at times.

3) The Old Lady at thge end is there to underline all of this. She started off hostile, but paid attention and then ACCEPTED Dale's abilities and intuition, followed them, and came out better for it. The story isn't so much that EVERYONE who encounters Dale ends up better off, but that those who encounter him with an open mind and an open heart, who can bring themselves to accept what he offers, will be richer in the end. Provided they, like Dale, choose to prioritize their intuition, their inner selves, over the way the physical world is directing them.
Last edited by Ragnell on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
sewhite2000
RR Diner Member
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:17 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by sewhite2000 »

KyleRickards wrote:Also, with Gordon's arm shaking after being near a portal, does that infer that other people in the original series, such as Pete Martel and others have also been near or close to a portal?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I think a portal was opening as Windom Earle was planning to enter the Black Lodge with the winner of Miss Twin Peaks pageant. The people who experienced those sensations weren't right next to a portal like Gordon, but were nearby and were apparently especially sensitive to these vibrations.
User avatar
chromereflectsimage
RR Diner Member
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:03 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by chromereflectsimage »

psyifinotic wrote:
garethw wrote:
psyifinotic wrote:guys. its d sharp. dougie hears d sharp and gets an intense look. same pitch as the hum in the great northern. hmm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Neat. Do you have perfect pitch?
no i wish, just intuition and an iphone app lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I used a phone app and got that the first three piano notes that draws Cooper's attention are D5, E5 and F5 [ (587-698 Hz range)] (for reference, middle 'C' on the piano is C4)

Also the whistle Harry Dean Stanton uses is at a D7 (2349 Hz) (exactly 2 octaves higher from the first piano note).

The first sound at the great Northern picked up is A5. The frequency at which power line frequency is usually 50-60 Hz which is around A1, exactly four octaves lower.
Last edited by chromereflectsimage on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
zeronumber
RR Diner Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:42 pm

Re: RE: Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by zeronumber »

BEARisonFord wrote:
Fire wrote:I would love to have a GIF of Candie and the girls just moving, from the shot of them in this episode. Something about it, I can just watch it forever. So hypnotic in a Lynch way.
Image
Nice. Now we need a GIF of the "~andies~" at the wall where Candie does that pink ocean "wave" with her hand!

Sent from my NEC-NE-201A1A using Tapatalk
User avatar
Framed_Angel
RR Diner Member
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:16 am

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by Framed_Angel »

Ragnell wrote:1) There's something really significant I have's seen anyone point out yet: Dougie-Dale made a decision. In the past we've seen him distracted and interested in things while being guided, but he always gave way to the people physically directing him. The one time he broke free of someone's grip was to push Janey-E out of the way to block Ike the Spike, and that could be attributed to muscle memory. Other than that he always lets someone direct him...But here, he saw the One-Armed Man and broke free of Bushnell's grip. You can see Bushnell resist a little but he just breaks free. Did not react to his name being called, which is actually unusual, in the last few eps he usually stops and looks. No, he goes straight for that vision of the One-Armed Man. He PRIORITIZES the Red Room vision over Bushnell's interference.That is HUGE.
Since Janey-E has been like DougieCoop's guide for practical day-to-day like getting to the office, as well as stepping in as his protector to fend off the loan shark's two goons for example -- then, becoming self-actualized as a thing like Following The Cherry Pie does seem significant. I wish we'd seen how that transaction went. The purchase of pie happened offscreen, so all we saw was One-Armed Gerard beckoning. At the time I was clueless what kind of shop it was, no idea a bakery. Until I read comments here I didn't know where the pie came from. Someone else mentioned seeing a Naido lookalike sitting near there too, so I tend to miss fleeting details, but recall impressionable moments.
How many times earlier has Philip Gerard appeared to DougieCoop? I'm only remembering the "Wake Up" scene. Did Dougie repeat it back to him like he does everyone else's, the ends of their sentences, "Wake up"? When was the other time he saw Gerard in a vision-like situation? I'm curious what people think about Dougie rubbing his jaw during the dining scene/Part 11, which reminded me of a moment from waaaay earlier in the season.
And why did Dougie start crying that random moment while Sonny Jim was waiting out in the car in Part 4 or 5?
Ragnell wrote:2) Candie, and I'm still open to her having other purposes but I'm sure this is one, is a feminine mirror of Dale. She hurts Rodney in the last episode, makes a cut. When Dale first visited the casino, he caused some minor harm to the Mitchem Brothers by getting their money unfairly. A small, accidental injury that's barely noticeable in both cases. But with Candie, he just waves it off. When the injury Candie made is HEALED, it opens the door for Rodney to make the same decision and waive off the small injury from Dougie-Dale.
There's so little time spent with any given character that when we meet someone who gets as much screen time as the Mitchem bros or Candie, often we're ready to assign them special significance -- I'm sticking with my self-actualization theme for now and enjoying as I did while watching Part 10 and rewatching: Candie is her own character and her mystery is her own. A published interview** with Shiels has her telling of an abused past for her character Candie. Mystical affiliations were not part of it, nor did I get any whiff of the mystical for her. SOme people are mysterious in their human nature. I think there's more to learn about her significance to the story overall, although that could be said about many of the characters~
------
** I think the interview was at vulture.com
"Fool me once... shame on me!"
User avatar
firefly2193
Roadhouse Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:49 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by firefly2193 »

AuralAmpler wrote:
firefly2193 wrote:A very mixed episode for me

my thoughts exactly except i am happy to pass judgement before it's finished. (:

basically, lynch has been working off intuition . there's no logic in the traditional sense that "golden age of tv" shows are written. this is basically haphazard storytelling and he is doing something else entirely. i am giving up the possibility of the show clicking together into an elegant, tightly written story like the Pilot and the first 7 hours...it is what it is though - Lynch has "evolved" much like The Arm...
I think you're criticism comes from literally the opposite place to mine. I want the return to be MORE Lynchian in the sense that I know it - his work since FWWM onwards have been deep character studies exploring subjects who have suffered deep trauma and their subjective experience of reality thereafter. So far I have enjoyed TPTR quite a lot, but mostly for its aesthetic values - Part 8 is one of my favourite episodes of television ever - but I'm still itching for the emotional core of the show to come through, if one exists. If Parts 12-18 (even if its just Parts 16-18 or something like that) operate on the level of Part 8 I'll be very satisfied, but if it can combine that with a subjective lens that gives us insight into the human experience, ala Mulholland Drive or FWWM, then I'll be completely thrilled.
User avatar
yaxomoxay
Great Northern Member
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 4:50 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by yaxomoxay »

Framed_Angel wrote:I'm curious what people think about Dougie rubbing his jaw during the dining scene/Part 11, which reminded me of a moment from waaaay earlier in the season.
Dougie touched his own face and said: "Dead."
Together with the elderly woman's scene, it tells me that the very special person called Dougie is dying. It's just preparing us for his departure; and I am going to miss him.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
firefly2193
Roadhouse Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:49 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by firefly2193 »

So far the emotional core of the show has been the Dougie storyline. And so far I'm not quite sure *what* that story is going to be. I sincerely hope what happens is that it takes something that truly gets at the core of Dale's character - perhaps seeing Audrey or Annie in danger - to 'wake him up'. I would love the idea that silly aesthetic things like coffee and cherry pie aren't enough, and it takes something of emotional weight to return Dale to who he was. If its just a story of a man slowly returning to his character by drinking coffee and eating cherry pie....that would be a disappointment for me. Fingers crossed.
User avatar
yaxomoxay
Great Northern Member
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 4:50 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by yaxomoxay »

firefly2193 wrote:So far the emotional core of the show has been the Dougie storyline. And so far I'm not quite sure *what* that story is going to be. I sincerely hope what happens is that it takes something that truly gets at the core of Dale's character - perhaps seeing Audrey or Annie in danger - to 'wake him up'. I would love the idea that silly aesthetic things like coffee and cherry pie aren't enough, and it takes something of emotional weight to return Dale to who he was. If its just a story of a man slowly returning to his character by drinking coffee and eating cherry pie....that would be a disappointment for me. Fingers crossed.
I think that Dale will not awake because of external circumstances. He will awake on 10/2. However that will simply mean that Dale's intelligence is back, with his deductive powers and his intelligence. As for his old emotions? They will never come back as if nothing happened; his will be a struggle to prevent total madness after 25years in the lodge and after losing the best years of his life.
At that point some external circumstance (Audrey? double r coffee?) can save his sanity, but I fear that he will be forever on the verge of lovecraftian madness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
ScarFace32
RR Diner Member
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:45 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by ScarFace32 »

silvo wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:The black corn Hawk mentions made me think of Corn Smut. It is diseased corn just like he said, but viewed as a delicacy.

Image
The color of the disease is blue, which might also referred to unnatural. But is the disease something unnatural?
Well it might look blue there but there are certainly black variations. The disease is a fungus so not unnatural
dropkick23
Roadhouse Member
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by dropkick23 »

Esselgee wrote:The final scene of episode 18: Norma finishes her paperwork.
She must be in some kind of paperwork purgatory. maybe in a past life she was cosmically irresponsible with her finances/record keeping.
thedarktrees
Roadhouse Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: RE: Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by thedarktrees »

zeronumber wrote:
BEARisonFord wrote:
Fire wrote:I would love to have a GIF of Candie and the girls just moving, from the shot of them in this episode. Something about it, I can just watch it forever. So hypnotic in a Lynch way.
Image
Nice. Now we need a GIF of the "~andies~" at the wall where Candie does that pink ocean "wave" with her hand!

Sent from my NEC-NE-201A1A using Tapatalk
I think what's so odd (and maybe interesting) about some of her movements, especially in this scene, is that she moves her head before her eyes follow. When we move, our eyes/vision tend to lead, followed by head movement, even by a split second. In her case, there are a few times when her vision very slowly lags behind her head movement. It leads to things looking really odd.

Incidentally, that's also how the reversed lodge scenes tend to look. So if our vision leads our head movements, then when reversed, the head movement will happen before the eyes follow. Watch Black Lodge scenes and you'll see that all the time.

NOT saying that Candie has anything to do with the Black Lodge whatsoever. Just an interesting effect that throws things off and commands attention when we watch. Wouldn't be surprised if Lynch deliberately directed her movements on this.
thedarktrees
Roadhouse Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Post by thedarktrees »

yaxomoxay wrote:
firefly2193 wrote:So far the emotional core of the show has been the Dougie storyline. And so far I'm not quite sure *what* that story is going to be. I sincerely hope what happens is that it takes something that truly gets at the core of Dale's character - perhaps seeing Audrey or Annie in danger - to 'wake him up'. I would love the idea that silly aesthetic things like coffee and cherry pie aren't enough, and it takes something of emotional weight to return Dale to who he was. If its just a story of a man slowly returning to his character by drinking coffee and eating cherry pie....that would be a disappointment for me. Fingers crossed.
I think that Dale will not awake because of external circumstances. He will awake on 10/2. However that will simply mean that Dale's intelligence is back, with his deductive powers and his intelligence. As for his old emotions? They will never come back as if nothing happened; his will be a struggle to prevent total madness after 25years in the lodge and after losing the best years of his life.
At that point some external circumstance (Audrey? double r coffee?) can save his sanity, but I fear that he will be forever on the verge of lovecraftian madness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is bringing me back the the "stars turn and a time presents itself" comments from earlier in the series. To me it's never been super clear that that time is, and what alignment sets it up. It seemed that it referred to Cooper coming out of the lodge (and what Hawk saw out in the woods). But now we have a new date/time where things line up and something is supposed to happen. So is THIS when the stars turn?
Post Reply