World of Blue - Archived Forum 2007-2022

Agent Earle wrote: ...
And a lot of them don't develop their very special brand of quality and evolve into masterpieces until only after their first season.

I'm curious if I can agree to that. Can you name some notable examples?

Often I've had to explain to people why I do not like GOT. I tell them that I tried multiple times but I simply can not get in to it, it simply does not speak to me. On multiple occasions, I've been told I should watch it for two or three seasons before giving it judgement. This argument always came across as sort of silly to me. I shouldn't have to waste 20 hours of my life conditioning myself to enjoy something. A narrative should grab me from the start, otherwise it just isn't for me.
Weird thing is, this actually contradicts the way I approach a lot of other media. And what others often consider is too much of a ''slow burn'', I am able to enjoy.

Jasper wrote:

Diane wrote:Lancelot Link

You must earn the prize for the most unexpected inclusion.

Haha, thanks.

Honorable mention to Kids in the Hall and Monty Python. I also like Wonder Woman with Lynda Carter. And Twilight Zone (original), Night Gallery, Beverly Hillbillies, Leave it to Beaver, Brady Bunch, My Three Sons, Father Knows Best, WKRP, Night Court, Saved by the Bell, Fantasy Island, Love Boat, Three’s Company, I Dream of Jeannie, Battle of the Planets, Mork & Mindy.

Soolsma wrote:

Agent Earle wrote: ...
And a lot of them don't develop their very special brand of quality and evolve into masterpieces until only after their first season.

I'm curious if I can agree to that. Can you name some notable examples?

Halt and Catch Fire is pretty much an objective, universally agreed upon example of a show that took nearly two seasons to hit its stride. The quality of the show actually changed as it learned what it wanted to be. Seasons 3 and 4 are excellent.

In other cases, some programs do take their time to get their hooks in you, but that's less about the show and more about the viewer. I know a lot of people who feel that way about The Wire - at the very least, something that is repeated about the series is that you have to watch for four episodes before giving up on it. Meanwhile, I didn't realize how instantly great the first season of The Americans was until I revisited it in light of knowing the subsequent four seasons as I prepared for the final season to air.

LateReg wrote:

Soolsma wrote:

Agent Earle wrote: ...
And a lot of them don't develop their very special brand of quality and evolve into masterpieces until only after their first season.

I'm curious if I can agree to that. Can you name some notable examples?

Halt and Catch Fire is pretty much an objective, universally agreed upon example of a show that took nearly two seasons to hit its stride. The quality of the show actually changed as it learned what it wanted to be. Seasons 3 and 4 are excellent.

In other cases, some programs do take their time to get their hooks in you, but that's less about the show and more about the viewer. I know a lot of people who feel that way about The Wire - at the very least, something that is repeated about the series is that you have to watch for four episodes before giving up on it. Meanwhile, I didn't realize how instantly great the first season of The Americans was until I revisited it in light of knowing the subsequent four seasons as I prepared for the final season to air.

I agree with what LateReg wrote. Maybe I worded it a bit clumsily, but I meant that it sometimes takes time for a viewer to catch up with the show's rhytm, as it does for a show to develop its special voice (though the latter is maybe not so much a thing in the current age of auteur television, where a pitcher/showrunner comes to a network/whatever with a fully formed idea and possibly even a detailed plan of how will the storyline evolve over multiple story arcs and seasons). The Wire is a very good example of a slow-burning series, where the scope of the show doesn't become apparent in the first season (and that may initially work against the appreciation of the audiences expecting that S 2 will bring an immediate continuation of what went on in S 1). Of the shows from "way back when", I think Northern Exposure was also the one whose canvas (mythology, if you will) got richer and more complex the longer it went on, and it eventually blossomed beyond what anyone who tunned in for a routine "fish-out-of-water" tale of S 1 could have possibly imagined - to catch that show's idiosyncratic grandeur in all of its complexity, you absolutely need to watch more than the first season.
Whereas some other modern shows I included on my list, I think, while all very good in their premiere seasons, weren't firing on all cylinders until later in the game, and that had to do partly with a viewer getting to know the characters and universe and the level of immersion getting deeper/higher (a subjective reason) as it did with writers/showrunners upping the ante as the series progressed (an objective reason) - on first thought, I'd list The Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Breaking Bad, Boardwalk Empire, and The Shield as examples of this (I'm not saying these titles have difficulty grabbing you with their first episodes, mind you - I was certainly hooked from the get-go). In the end, though, such matters are in the eye of the beholder, and I wouldn't force anyone to labour through a show that he didn't find even the least bit appealing in its first season.

On a side note, I'm very glad about what I'm hearing of Halt and Catch Fire and The Americans, LateReg. Both sound like they offer a quality time spent in front of the TV, and I can't wait to finally check them out. Here's hoping they include a somewhat poignant elaboration of what it meant to live - to socially, culturally and politically exist - in the 1980s, and are not limiting themselves to merely flashing superficialities of that time frame, such as big hair, shoulder pads, walkmans, and Reagan/Bush election posters decorating - or polluting - suburban lawns

Parks and Recreation is a show that I heard is a labor to get through the First Season, but after that, it improves remarkably (so I've heard).

But the thought of having to slog through a whole season before it gets 'good', is more time than I want to spend in front of my television.

mtwentz wrote:Parks and Recreation is a show that I heard is a labor to get through the First Season, but after that, it improves remarkably (so I've heard).

But the thought of having to slog through a whole season before it gets 'good', is more time than I want to spend in front of my television.

Well, the first season is only six sitcom-length episodes, so it’s not that big a commitment. And the sixth episode is where the show starts to get good, so it’s really only five episodes that are a “labor.”

Mr. Reindeer wrote:

mtwentz wrote:Parks and Recreation is a show that I heard is a labor to get through the First Season, but after that, it improves remarkably (so I've heard).

But the thought of having to slog through a whole season before it gets 'good', is more time than I want to spend in front of my television.

Well, the first season is only six sitcom-length episodes, so it’s not that big a commitment. And the sixth episode is where the show starts to get good, so it’s really only five episodes that are a “labor.”

Ok not too bad; I just might give it a shot. I really enjoy The Good Place so I imagine I will like Parks and Recreation

Audrey Horne wrote:
I love the idea and look of Twin Peaks the most, but it’s a show I just want to shake the crap out of. First season, knocked outta the park but after that, I just always watch thinking you could be so so so so so so so much better, c’mon!

Is this Audrey and Cooper romance related or something else? please explain.

It’s not tight like the first season, where everything felt to me like it was organic yet fitting and overlapping like a brilliant puzzle. I was thrilled because I was so in love with the characters and anxious to figure out the whodunit and where it would go after that... but even at the time things like the third and fourth episode with Dick Treymaine and the sperm viral antics felt off, or the Roadhouse trial scenes. The sixth episode felt the most like how Peaks could be (when Lynch isn’t directing) with a tight format and sparkling dialogue. If that makes any sense.

What on Earth's wrong with the Roadhouse trial scenes???

And although I'm normally not big on TP humor, Dick Tremayne always gets a pass from me, on account of how side-splittingly funny his looks and demeanour are I even love the completely over-the-top pine weasel schtick!

Audrey Horne wrote:the Roadhouse trial scenes

Yeah, people don't talk about the Roadhouse trial stuff, but it does kind of fall flat, for me anyway. I mean obviously it's Twin Peaks and I love it no matter what, but just contrast the Roadhouse trial to, I don't know, Leland's jailhouse confession an episode or two prior? Or the emotional gravity of say, the principal announcing Laura's death? Everyone reacts to Laura's death a week prior, but like no one in town seems to care that her father murdered a man and her suspected murderer is in a coma... The trial just feels like a bit of a missed opportunity, or just some sort of arbitrary narrative set piece that moves that story from point A to point B.

I've always been conflicted about Judge Sternwood. I kind of like the character, but he doesn't really add much to the story.

And what was up with Hank Jennings stealing prosecutor Lodgwick's ID? Why would that compel Jean Renault to spare him at One Eyed Jack's -- the fact that he had the ID of a man he bore no resemblance to? Okay, I'm not really hung up on this last point, but since someone mentioned the Roadhouse trial scenes...

Nothing is wrong with Dick T or the trial scenes narratively, jus the handling of it. And not that they’re bad, just not outstanding and tight like the first season. My point following up on is how I love Twin Peaks the most but it’s really for my love of its look and potential.

The second season has the two biggest highs for me... Cooper rescuing Audrey and the reveal of the killer, but that’s mostly because I have been so invested from the expertise of the first season.

Stern wood I love, just like the waiter from the Searchers with the recall of his famous, “thank you kindly,” or Norma’s mom being played by famous film noir actress (blanking on her name), and think it’s keeping in the initial setup of this being a blender film world of genres... just wished they had been used more effectively.

But again there might be something wonderful in the longevity of my finding it imperfect because it lives longer in my mind of thinking what if’s.

Not to be pedantic, but IIRC it’s a bail hearing, not a trial.

I agree with Audrey. Those scenes certainly don’t represent the show at its strongest, but I enjoy the incongruity of the Roadhouse being used as a courthouse (even more ironic since we learned from TP:TR that the Renaults own the Roadhouse!). Sternwood is one those many S2 characters who bounces in and out of the season way too quickly to make much of an impact, but he gets a few good moments and is probably one of the more memorable one-off S2 characters. The Black Yukon Sucker Punch is a cool little detail. I also agree with Audrey that it’s fun to see Royal Dano, as well as Van Dyke Parks of all people (although he gets even less to do).

Audrey, Jane Greer is Norma’s mom! I’m not a fan of the M. T. Wentz storyline, but I do love that between Greer, Lipton and Graham, that family covers three generations of Hollywood beauties.

Yes, Jane Greer! Wow, my hard drive is getting cleared out of my head for all the TP stuff I knew inside and out for thirty years.

MT Wenz is a wha?, huh? We don’t even get a scene of Norma getting the bad news for it to land... just oh she got a bad review and Tada! I’m MT Wenz! The sets are great, the costumes are great, the actors are all great, just the story’s and scripts needed to be tighter.

But then again we’d have to look at LA Law or thirtysomething, etc and see how other shows were doing with the 22-24 episodes a year orders in that time, it’s not easy to do and I respect all of it.

I do know I’ve never been so excited as I was watching tv or movies than I was during season two.