Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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NormoftheAndes
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby NormoftheAndes » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:24 pm

Sure, I didn't mean the exact same sort of mainstream successs as Twin Peaks in 1990 - but that was a network TV show. All I am suggesting is Lynch gaining the sort of talk and interest in whatever he's up to that happened with Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:29 pm

NormoftheAndes wrote:Sure, I didn't mean the exact same sort of mainstream successs as Twin Peaks in 1990 - but that was a network TV show. All I am suggesting is Lynch gaining the sort of talk and interest in whatever he's up to that happened with Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart.


Mulholland Drive was pretty buzzworthy in its time too.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby LateReg » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:48 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:Sure, I didn't mean the exact same sort of mainstream successs as Twin Peaks in 1990 - but that was a network TV show. All I am suggesting is Lynch gaining the sort of talk and interest in whatever he's up to that happened with Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart.


Mulholland Drive was pretty buzzworthy in its time too.


I totally agree with Axxon about the Joyce route. But what I'm wondering is: did The Return achieve the same level of buzz as Mulholland Drive - for which I remember the palpable buzz - and if not, is it even possible for a Lynch film/series to achieve that level of buzz with the way that so many options across so many streamers have divided viewers and interests? I think that if The Return didn't receive Mulholland levels of buzz - and that's a big IF - that it wasn't because of the work itself, regardless of how extreme it was, but because of the current ways that people experience TV/film. It's really weird out there.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby enumbs » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:56 am

NormoftheAndes wrote:Sure, I didn't mean the exact same sort of mainstream successs as Twin Peaks in 1990 - but that was a network TV show. All I am suggesting is Lynch gaining the sort of talk and interest in whatever he's up to that happened with Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart.


This talk about a lack of buzz is mystifying to me. The show received incredible reviews, with words like “masterpiece” and “magnum opus” thrown around frequently. Film Twitter was more engaged than with anything I’ve seen before or since - I remember critics saying that it made every film debuting at Cannes seem dull and timid by comparison. It was the most acclaimed show alongside the Leftovers in 2017, and has made multiple TV and film of the decade lists also (topping the Time, Vulture, and Cahiers du Cinema lists). Within the industry figures like Damon Lindelof, David Chase, Sam Esmail, Jim Jarmusch, Rian Johnson and Paul Thomas Anderson have raved about it.

The ratings were not particularly high, but neither Wild at Heart nor Mulholland Drive broke box office records either. In terms of critical reception and cultural significance the Return is clearly every bit as important as either of those films (probably a great deal more than WAH).
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby NormoftheAndes » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:17 am

enumbs wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:Sure, I didn't mean the exact same sort of mainstream successs as Twin Peaks in 1990 - but that was a network TV show. All I am suggesting is Lynch gaining the sort of talk and interest in whatever he's up to that happened with Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart.


This talk about a lack of buzz is mystifying to me. The show received incredible reviews, with words like “masterpiece” and “magnum opus” thrown around frequently. Film Twitter was more engaged than with anything I’ve seen before or since - I remember critics saying that it made every film debuting at Cannes seem dull and timid by comparison. It was the most acclaimed show alongside the Leftovers in 2017, and has made multiple TV and film of the decade lists also (topping the Time, Vulture, and Cahiers du Cinema lists). Within the industry figures like Damon Lindelof, David Chase, Sam Esmail, Jim Jarmusch, Rian Johnson and Paul Thomas Anderson have raved about it.

The ratings were not particularly high, but neither Wild at Heart nor Mulholland Drive broke box office records either. In terms of critical reception and cultural significance the Return is clearly every bit as important as either of those films (probably a great deal more than WAH).


Not sure what you mean by The Return being more important than Wild at Heart?
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby enumbs » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:32 am

NormoftheAndes wrote:
enumbs wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:Sure, I didn't mean the exact same sort of mainstream successs as Twin Peaks in 1990 - but that was a network TV show. All I am suggesting is Lynch gaining the sort of talk and interest in whatever he's up to that happened with Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart.


This talk about a lack of buzz is mystifying to me. The show received incredible reviews, with words like “masterpiece” and “magnum opus” thrown around frequently. Film Twitter was more engaged than with anything I’ve seen before or since - I remember critics saying that it made every film debuting at Cannes seem dull and timid by comparison. It was the most acclaimed show alongside the Leftovers in 2017, and has made multiple TV and film of the decade lists also (topping the Time, Vulture, and Cahiers du Cinema lists). Within the industry figures like Damon Lindelof, David Chase, Sam Esmail, Jim Jarmusch, Rian Johnson and Paul Thomas Anderson have raved about it.

The ratings were not particularly high, but neither Wild at Heart nor Mulholland Drive broke box office records either. In terms of critical reception and cultural significance the Return is clearly every bit as important as either of those films (probably a great deal more than WAH).


Not sure what you mean by The Return being more important than Wild at Heart?


After the big win at Cannes, Wild at Heart received a mixed critical reception, and began the Lynch backlash which coincided with season 2 of Twin Peaks, and affected his reputation up to his popular rehabilitation with Straight Story and Mulholland Drive.

I don’t think the film has undergone the same reassessment as Fire Walk With Me and Lost Highway, both of which are now generally viewed as classics. I think it is fairly seen as a more frivolous and uneven film than either of those, and therefore less resonant overall.

This is all just my perception of course, but it seems to me that The Return has been placed by Lynch and film fans in general as among the upper-tier of the director’s work, and groundbreaking for the medium in a manner closer to BV or MD than WAH.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby NormoftheAndes » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:16 am

enumbs wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:
enumbs wrote:
This talk about a lack of buzz is mystifying to me. The show received incredible reviews, with words like “masterpiece” and “magnum opus” thrown around frequently. Film Twitter was more engaged than with anything I’ve seen before or since - I remember critics saying that it made every film debuting at Cannes seem dull and timid by comparison. It was the most acclaimed show alongside the Leftovers in 2017, and has made multiple TV and film of the decade lists also (topping the Time, Vulture, and Cahiers du Cinema lists). Within the industry figures like Damon Lindelof, David Chase, Sam Esmail, Jim Jarmusch, Rian Johnson and Paul Thomas Anderson have raved about it.

The ratings were not particularly high, but neither Wild at Heart nor Mulholland Drive broke box office records either. In terms of critical reception and cultural significance the Return is clearly every bit as important as either of those films (probably a great deal more than WAH).


Not sure what you mean by The Return being more important than Wild at Heart?


After the big win at Cannes, Wild at Heart received a mixed critical reception, and began the Lynch backlash which coincided with season 2 of Twin Peaks, and affected his reputation up to his popular rehabilitation with Straight Story and Mulholland Drive.

I don’t think the film has undergone the same reassessment as Fire Walk With Me and Lost Highway, both of which are now generally viewed as classics. I think it is fairly seen as a more frivolous and uneven film than either of those, and therefore less resonant overall.

This is all just my perception of course, but it seems to me that The Return has been placed by Lynch and film fans in general as among the upper-tier of the director’s work, and groundbreaking for the medium in a manner closer to BV or MD than WAH.


Wild at Heart did make a big impact on cinema at the time. Look at the films which imitated it to some extent - Natural Born Killers, True Romance, Red Rock West and others. The real backlash began with Fire Walk with Me - unfairly, but critics were just not enamoured so much with the continuation of Twin Peaks at that stage.

Whilst there has been reassesment of FWWM, I was not aware that Lost Highway has gotten any major new plaudits. It had a fair critical reaction at the time and I don't see that as having changed. The overall view of Lynch's films did change with Mulholland Dr. because that film featured female leads and was also somewhat more accessible in comparison to LH for instance. Whilst it was still surrealist, I would argue that its construction is more easily traversed by someone unfamiliar with Lynch's style.

Have to say I don't think you're right with Wild at Heart, especially not when it comes to more serious writers on film like for instance Martha Nochimson. The film does stand up against anything by Lynch - its construction might be more 'wild' but that's the nature of the film - but I don't see it as being frivolous.

Whilst I would agree that The Return garnered a lot of praise, I think the question comes down to whether it welcomes an audience who are not familiar or fans of Lynch as a whole - as Mulholland Dr. did I believe. I don't think S3, as good as it is, invites newcomers so much. Of course more than a few viewers would have loved it, having seen nothing of Twin Peaks before - but I think that was not the overall picture. Do I think that Twin Peaks as a continuing story could welcome viewers more openly as Mulholland Dr. did? Yes, absolutely.

The comparison to James Joyce and some saying Lynch should just become more and more insular - I don't think any such comparison makes sense, nevermind seeming highly fake-pretentious (I don't believe anyone here is a scholar of Joyce, correct me if I am wrong) - is it not possible for the director to be as free with his own creativity but still hold the door open to as many lovers of cinema as possible?
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby LateReg » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:03 pm

NormoftheAndes wrote:
enumbs wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:
Not sure what you mean by The Return being more important than Wild at Heart?


After the big win at Cannes, Wild at Heart received a mixed critical reception, and began the Lynch backlash which coincided with season 2 of Twin Peaks, and affected his reputation up to his popular rehabilitation with Straight Story and Mulholland Drive.

I don’t think the film has undergone the same reassessment as Fire Walk With Me and Lost Highway, both of which are now generally viewed as classics. I think it is fairly seen as a more frivolous and uneven film than either of those, and therefore less resonant overall.

This is all just my perception of course, but it seems to me that The Return has been placed by Lynch and film fans in general as among the upper-tier of the director’s work, and groundbreaking for the medium in a manner closer to BV or MD than WAH.


Wild at Heart did make a big impact on cinema at the time. Look at the films which imitated it to some extent - Natural Born Killers, True Romance, Red Rock West and others. The real backlash began with Fire Walk with Me - unfairly, but critics were just not enamoured so much with the continuation of Twin Peaks at that stage.

Whilst there has been reassesment of FWWM, I was not aware that Lost Highway has gotten any major new plaudits. It had a fair critical reaction at the time and I don't see that as having changed. The overall view of Lynch's films did change with Mulholland Dr. because that film featured female leads and was also somewhat more accessible in comparison to LH for instance. Whilst it was still surrealist, I would argue that its construction is more easily traversed by someone unfamiliar with Lynch's style.

Have to say I don't think you're right with Wild at Heart, especially not when it comes to more serious writers on film like for instance Martha Nochimson. The film does stand up against anything by Lynch - its construction might be more 'wild' but that's the nature of the film - but I don't see it as being frivolous.

Whilst I would agree that The Return garnered a lot of praise, I think the question comes down to whether it welcomes an audience who are not familiar or fans of Lynch as a whole - as Mulholland Dr. did I believe. I don't think S3, as good as it is, invites newcomers so much. Of course more than a few viewers would have loved it, having seen nothing of Twin Peaks before - but I think that was not the overall picture. Do I think that Twin Peaks as a continuing story could welcome viewers more openly as Mulholland Dr. did? Yes, absolutely.

The comparison to James Joyce and some saying Lynch should just become more and more insular - I don't think any such comparison makes sense, nevermind seeming highly fake-pretentious (I don't believe anyone here is a scholar of Joyce, correct me if I am wrong) - is it not possible for the director to be as free with his own creativity but still hold the door open to as many lovers of cinema as possible?


Fascinating discussion. I'm more of the mind of enumbs: Wild at Heart is perhaps the most divisive Lynch film, and not one of the more important as far as canon is concerned, and it began his downward turn with critics, at least for a time. It is more mainstream, more well known, but you're just as likely to find it ranked last on a list as you are to find it ranked near the top. For me, I love it, but it's #9 of 10. I think a lot of "highbrow" critics rank it near the bottom as well; it didn't receive any votes from critics in the 2012 Sight and Sound all-time poll, either, whereas even INLAND EMPIRE received six. Meanwhile, I've seen more mainstream-leaning sites like Collider and Total Film rank it very highly. But it's also hard to argue with Norm's synopsis because Wild at Heart seems to loom large over the 1990s decade, as Norm cited.

I do think that Lost Highway, like most Lynch films, has indeed grown in stature. It used to be very mixed reception, but now I see it on almost every 90s list, usually ahead of The Straight Story. It also received five critics votes in the last Sight and Sound poll. And I unquestionably think The Return is in another league of importance in every way than Wild at Heart. As I alluded to in my previous post, I do think The Return basically achieved the level of Mulholland Drive's buzz and recognition, though I've also said that it's harder to tell given the way viewers now experience film and TV, as well as The Return's standing as an extreme work of art that straddles the line between both.

Also, I've read Joyce. I'm no scholar, but The Dead is my favorite short story and I've read everything in its entirety except for Finnegans Wake, which I've still delightedly skim through over and over again and whip out occasionally to read to friends. Not in a pretentious way!

ETA: I don't think it's possible for Lynch to be as free as possible and still hold the door open to as many lovers of cinema as possible. Not when he's making stuff as out there as Inland Empire and The Return, for one thing. And also, again, not when it seems that the amount of content has scattered viewers. And I also do appreciate your point about The Return not inviting newcomers as much.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby NormoftheAndes » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:03 pm

LateReg and co.

Rating the overall consensus on Lynch's work though I find way too list-making and 'let's make our top tens'...

Comparing the worth of Wild at Heart to The Return is also unbelievably silly to me - one is a 2 hour film and the other is a 17 hour tv series (albeit referred to as a film)...

The reality is that everything Lynch has directed has its own worth - let's face it, you can hardly call any of his output 'mainstream' either.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby baxter » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:18 pm

I'd call The Elephant Man, Dune, The Straight Story and Twin Peaks S1 and S2 mainstream, though it depends on the definition. People sometimes forget that Lynch can and has told conventional stories in a conventional way.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby NormoftheAndes » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:31 pm

Yes I would agree with you, existing on the fringe of the mainstream.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby enumbs » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:50 pm

NormoftheAndes wrote:LateReg and co.

Rating the overall consensus on Lynch's work though I find way too list-making and 'let's make our top tens'...

Comparing the worth of Wild at Heart to The Return is also unbelievably silly to me - one is a 2 hour film and the other is a 17 hour tv series (albeit referred to as a film)...

The reality is that everything Lynch has directed has its own worth - let's face it, you can hardly call any of his output 'mainstream' either.


If you think the comparison is “unbelievably silly” then why did you bring the subject up in the first place? The issue was raised when you said “All I am suggesting is Lynch gaining the sort of talk and interest in whatever he's up to that happened with Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart”.

We were just disputing your assessment regarding the “talk and interest” which the Return garnered when compared to Lynch’s earlier work, and in a way that I think was fair and respectful.

You’re happy enough saying apples are more popular than oranges until someone disagrees with your findings, at which point you say “it’s absurd to even compare the two: they’re apples and oranges!”
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby NormoftheAndes » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:47 pm

I was responding to your comment -

"In terms of critical reception and cultural significance the Return is clearly every bit as important as either of those films (probably a great deal more than WAH)."

All I meant was that I believe The Return to be no more critically or culturally significant than Wild at Heart. Yes, I do think the comparison itself is rather unfounded and silly anyway. Nonetheless, WaH had a MAJOR impact in its time. The Return had an impact but definitely not a HUGE one - it was viewed as an interesting extension and modern updating of a classic tv show.

I would have liked season 3 to have had a bigger impact than it did, beyond just lots of polite or enthusiastic reviews. I'm talking a lot of cinema screenings, more cult fans out en force for a multitude of fan events and so on. But considering the very nature of season 3 and it being a melancholy and troubling return to Twin Peaks, I would not expect it to go into the realms I described.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:42 am

I disagree, The Return was the most buzzzed about show/cinematic event of that year. It's structure was copied 1:1 for "Watchmen", which was then the most buzzed about show of 2019, and in general it has kept popping up in articles and lists ever since. Also, it served as a fan driven streaming platform business model that CBS itself and other vendors have sought to copy ever since (currently "Picard" is doing great business for them). If you are only looking at ratings in the US, sure they were dismal. If you were to look into how many people saw this on a global level, it would likely eclipse anything that year that wasn't "Game of Thrones". We also know that this is an IP that new people keeps discovering across decades, so I would think that in the long run the show is going to win the most viewed race as well.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Postby N. Needleman » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:37 am

S3 was a major pop cultural conversation for tastemakers and top critics for all of '17 and recurring well beyond. It launched umpteen weekly thinkpieces with each episode, topped year-end lists, then decade-end lists. It's been cited by countless filmmakers and TV auteurs over and over (like the original). It took major awards. In the cultural marketplace of the current times, that is all unquestionable success. Whether it's still #1 in numbers or selling paperback books at B. Dalton's or hosting SNL is not necessary for it to have a major impact in the streaming age. It is not as broad-appeal as it once was, but in the current marketplace that doesn't matter, not when dark shows like Breaking Bad, etc. hit just as hard with specialized audiences as original TP once did. It's not 1990. The pop culture and merch game is not as four quadrant-encompassing as it once was unless you're Marvel or Star Wars or Stranger Things. It even got numerous articles comparing it and GOT, which TP ran back to back with in GOT's climactic season. GOT was critically razzed by direct comparison. Frankly, as someone who openly feared critics would pull a FWWM 2 on Season 3, I was stunned by the full and lasting embrace from most of them, minus the THR crank who whined that Legion had supplanted TP (it clearly had not, and swiftly fell from grace in subsequent years) and then retreated into his bolthole to proclaim he wouldn't watch as the praise began.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.

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