Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Discussion of Twin Peaks TV Series, Fire Walk With Me, and Books

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

Forum rules
Welcome to the forum. We know our members are passionate about their love for all things Twin Peaks. You wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case. Despite having differing viewpoints it is a policy that we all treat each other with mutual respect.

Posting abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated, or any material that may violate any laws be it of your country or the country where this forum is hosted will get you permanently banned.

Posting of spoilers are allowed as long as you indicate (Spoilers) in the topic name and use the Spoiler Tag.
jerbear
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:06 am

Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby jerbear » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:03 pm

We see the ring last in FWWM when it's found by Desmond, then MIKE has it in the van when confronting Leland. I wonder how he got it? Also why would MIKE want Laura to wear the ring in the train if he knew that BOB would kill her in doing so? Wouldn't possession be preferable to death?
User avatar
Shloogorgh
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:33 am

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby Shloogorgh » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:08 pm

The way the movie is cut it seems like Desmond disappears the moment he touches the ring (and that's the way the script describes it too). I always assumed he got sucked into the Black Lodge (hence the "Let's Rock" on his car). Why thew ring behaves differently for him, I don't know.

And once it is back in the lodge, The Man From Another Place takes it (hence why he has it in Laura's dream) and since he is MIKE's arm they can switch back between Lodge and the waking world with the ring.

I also follow the belief that MIKE wanted Laura to wear the ring to punish BOB and deprive him of a new host as punishment for him stealing his garmonbozia. And in the process, more garmonbozia is generated from the pain and sorrow of a father killing his daughter, and BOB reluctantly gives that garmonbozia to MIKE at the end of FWWM to repay the debt
User avatar
tmurry
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby tmurry » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:02 pm

The symbology around this is extremely slippery, but if we try to give the ring timeline the old college try, It seems that Desmond reaches for it and disappears, followed by the MFAP presenting it and talking to Coop about it (where Coop says "Laura, don't take the ring"), then Laura having it in her hand after Annie talks to her (it disappears when she wakes up) THEN Gerard has it. Not thinking to hard, it seems like MFAP tried to give it to Laura who didn't "take it" in her fear. Since the ring is essentially an embrace of radical destabilizing responsibility for the self and seeing past the artifice of the universe (in TP language stepping out between two worlds/becoming the magician), she was not yet ready (I guess?).

Mike/Gerard is interesting in the movie. He represents a kind of experience addict who is trying to go clean, but still craves the "high." He seems to have orthogonal functions - to thwart Bob vis a vis perpetuation of abuse and to get his share of the pain and suffering. I actually see the scene with him with the ring on as an attempt to get Laura to accept the truth and regain agency - he tells her what she already knows over the revving engine drowning things out.

This stuff is very unconscious and thus ineffable, but I think the track of the ring goes like this: The ring is a symbol of radical responsibility for the self/"red pill"ing - it is meted out by the MFAP, who I think of as the ego or author of the self as a subconscious function. In the TP language, putting on the ring is becoming the magician, a dangerous act of trying to meet the mysteries of existence head on. It leaves most of its wearers in shit shape. The "ego" has lost control of the Bob impulse in Leland (this is the point of the above the convenience store scene). He (MFAP) tries to regain control and the ring is an element or this struggle. It becomes obvious that Laura must take radical responsibility to break the cycle, or she will replace Leland as abuser, which will proceed cyclically.

The MFAP keeps trying to give the ring to those who can stop it, but the charges prove too weak. So the ring goes to Theresa, who loses. Desmond inadvertently brings the ring back. MFAP tries to give it to Laura. She is not ready as Coop knows. He then gives it to Gerard who will, lady of the lake-like, follow a basic archetypal protocol to get her the ring to break the cycle.

The tough stuff is the handling of the archetypes. Mike/Gerard loses his arm because the arm is the terrible will that DFW and Al Annon speak of - that's how the MFAP relates, as the ego, the indicator and judge of what is presented to the world as an identity who is at the mercy of powerful unconscious forces. This last week we had a lot of talk of Russ Tamblyn driving around Manson while Richard Beymer dated Sharon Tate. Bob/Manson/Ben relate to Mike/Gerard/Jacobi - the rapacious vs. burnout id of the boomer generation. So Mike takes responsibility for his sins.

It is Mike/Gerard's motivations that are interesting here. He is the cool dad that enabled the bad dad, who got into AA and needs to recognize a real opportunity to do good. The MFAP wants Bob stopped too, but is only the sum of his vectors. Mike's struggle to do the right thing is second (a far second, but still) to Laura's struggle in this film.

So, Theresa has ring (from MFAP giving it to her in a dream or maybe Mike), is killed, someone (Trefonts/Chalfonts?) brings the ring to the Fat Trout, Desmond activates it to bring it back to the lodge, the MFAP tries to give it to Laura (unsuccessfully), and gives ot to Mike/Gerard in a gambit for him to follow through on his constructive self hacking. He comes through and allows Laura to avoid being taken by Bob and dying for the sins of others (which will afford her eventual salvation, forborne by 25 years).
User avatar
StrangerDanger
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:46 am
Location: Another Place

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby StrangerDanger » Wed May 03, 2017 9:01 am

@tmurry - I liked your essay on this, it clears a lot of the Fire Walk With Me storyline up. A few questions:


Parts l don't get:
tmurry wrote:The tough stuff is the handling of the archetypes. Mike/Gerard loses his arm because the arm is the terrible will that DFW and Al Annon speak of

What is DFW? And is Al Annon = Alcoholics Anonymous?

tmurry wrote:Mike/Gerard loses his arm because the arm is the terrible will that DFW and Al Annon speak of - that's how the MFAP relates, as the ego, the indicator and judge of what is presented to the world as an identity who is at the mercy of powerful unconscious forces.

Sorry l don't quite understand what you're saying here.

tmurry wrote:The MFAP wants Bob stopped too, but is only the sum of his vectors.

Sorry l don't quite understand what you're saying here.


Something l'd like to discuss:
tmurry wrote:Mike's struggle to do the right thing is second (a far second, but still) to Laura's struggle in this film.

So, Theresa has ring (from MFAP giving it to her in a dream or maybe Mike), is killed, someone (Trefonts/Chalfonts?) brings the ring to the Fat Trout, Desmond activates it to bring it back to the lodge, the MFAP tries to give it to Laura (unsuccessfully), and gives ot to Mike/Gerard in a gambit for him to follow through on his constructive self hacking. He comes through and allows Laura to avoid being taken by Bob and dying for the sins of others (which will afford her eventual salvation, forborne by 25 years).

- What is it about Laura and Theresa that sets them above Mike's struggle? Seems to me like Laura and Theresa were ordinary people, and not particularly nice folks at that, except Laura had a spark of decency about her which saw her redeemed in the end. As for Mike - he was a serial killer l think? But he saw the face of God. That tale seems more worthy of song.

- What makes you think MFAP is up to any good? He seems gleeful when Laura is being murdered, and when he's in the meeting above the convenience store, he's clearly organising the modus operandi of the Black Lodge. I can't help thinking MFAP is Satan incarnate, he crystallised into physical form when Mike broke away from evil and so ditched his evil aspect - the sinister arm with its sinister tattoo.
leeeET's ROCK!
[ I've permanently left the forum ... Dugpa is a dodgy name, plus l'm too busy. Keep the :?: :idea: ]
User avatar
AXX°N N.
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby AXX°N N. » Wed May 03, 2017 9:28 am

StrangerDanger wrote:What is DFW? And is Al Annon = Alcoholics Anonymous?

DFW is David Foster Wallace, the writer of Infinite Jest, which features as half of its setting a halfway house with various characters in programs such as Alcoholics Anonymous -- but the themes involved are broadened beyond that setting to include myriad other political, psychological, spiritual etc. themes all relating to addiction as crux to understand the human condition. Wallace was a fan of Lynch, saying at one point for instance that Blue Velvet was a seminal film in his own creative development, and he's spoken highly of FWWM and Lynch in general. He has an essay where he goes to the set of Lost Highway and interviews Lynch, which includes most of his commentary on his thoughts on Lynch (his essays were routinely on-location reports but as a sort of signature stylistic feature, digressed and blurred the lines between objective report and subjective essay), which I assume is where the 'terrible will' talk comes from, but I haven't read it in forever.

It's an interesting read: http://www.lynchnet.com/lh/lhpremiere.html
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
User avatar
tmurry
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby tmurry » Wed May 03, 2017 4:15 pm

Hey, don't know why this didn't trip that orange indicator on my bar. Odd.

Yeah, I kinda rushed through stuff I'd talked about before and I guess you couldn't read my mind. :)

AXX°N N. was correct about those references. AA has a lot of sayings that revolve around the idea that (the illusion of) control is a trap and being sure you can think your way through the problem is wrongheaded - admitting powerlessness is literally step one and turning your will over to the higher power is step 3. No more stinkin' thinkin'. It's my best thinking that got me here. The minute I take control that's when I lose control. Stuff like that. It's why rational materialists hate AA. David Foster Wallace was really on about this stuff, and would talk about the personal freedom based mind as (paradoxically) a prison so complete the prisoner doesn't know they are locked up. "Terrible will" may be my distillation of his concepts about this employing his tendency to use the word terrible as a modifier (he definitely used "The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master" in the Kenyon commencement speech that is so famous).

Why bring this up? Because Phillip Gerard is kind of the essence of this. He acts like a recovering garmanbozia addict using a kind of blue methadone to prevent him from manifesting an aspect of his personality which is the magician, the willful 60s/70s (drug) seeker and seer, confidently experiencing the world in all of its pain and sorrow. There is a lot to unpack with Phillip and Mike, but what I was getting at was Mike cuts off his arm (itself a symbol of addiction [the Man with the Golden Arm] that bears the Fire Walk With Me tattoo, the manifesto of dangerous engagement of the fringe of the world) as a symbolic act of removing this terrible will. This leaves him a nervous Nellie, always projecting submission, but that part wants to come back.

This just scratches the surface. One read on all of Twin Peaks is that is about the path of men of a certain age - grew up in the 50s, came of age in the heaven hell split of the 60s/70s, and became the "man" they railed against in the 80s. As such, many of the dual reflections and re-reflections ruminate on the dark post hippie diad of the successful greedy rapacious cutthroat and the low status unaggressive transcendence burnout. Ben and Jacoby are the literal version (coming from West Side Story roles, through their actual lives[Tate dater vs. Manson van-ride-giver], into the TP roles), but Bob and Mike are the abstract version and recapitulated in the young via Bobby/James' "jock" vs. "freak/geek."

But MFAP is an interesting figure to struggle with. I see him as always purely reactive, and the early red room (waiting room) scene in the final ep as an instruction manual for him. He is the arm... the indicator for how Coop's trial is going or simply Coop's (and the collective unconcious of the whole town and America) ego in a Freudian sense - the element that synthesizes the self from the various forces that are churning. Placid MFAP means it's good, smooth dancing is good, agitated spasms mean stuff is going south. I think the Mike arm being his self authorship is the link between his arm and MFAP being the arm.

I am convinced the MFAP is not good or evil but reactive to forces and trying to project these as will (which is why he presents the green ring like Green Lantern). There is a struggle - Bob escapes the control of the MFAP who, as agent of the other forces including Ms. Tremont's traditional morality, was trying to control him (above the convenience store scene). He continues to act in that capacity with the ring... trying to recruit agents to restore an order, not to stop evil. I need to go, so cutting it short.
User avatar
StrangerDanger
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:46 am
Location: Another Place

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby StrangerDanger » Thu May 04, 2017 4:24 am

Fascinating stuff guys :)

Although l still differ on MFAP supposedly being neutral, because he just feels and acts evil, and the meeting above the convenience store just looks hellish. I totally agree that MFAPs actions reverberate in our world, for example his changing styles of dancing (as you pointed out), and throwaway comments (Let's Rock, that gum you like, having his back turned to Coop while pretending to cry - compare that with Leland doing the same, and the way MFAP moves his hand over the formica table at the meeting above the convenience store - compare that with the nurse moving her hand over Annie's face before stealing the ring).
leeeET's ROCK!
[ I've permanently left the forum ... Dugpa is a dodgy name, plus l'm too busy. Keep the :?: :idea: ]
User avatar
tmurry
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby tmurry » Thu May 04, 2017 7:02 am

the meeting above the convenience store just looks hellish


During that scene, MFAP is trying to talk Bob down and fails, resulting in Bob escaping. It is hellish... there is pain and sorrow everywhere but it isn't enough for Bob (he's got, y'know, momentum).
User avatar
Rainwater
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 3:00 am
Location: Under the Sycamore trees

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby Rainwater » Thu May 04, 2017 7:14 am

StrangerDanger wrote:having his back turned to Coop while pretending to cry

I assume you're talking about the first Red Room scene in Cooper's dream. Interesting how differently people interpret that shot.
I think MFAP's twitching is much too ambiguous. I don't know if there's any intention behind it, other than unnerving the viewer, but I have no idea what it is he's doing.
On the topic of visual ambiguity, people have also said the rectangle-shaped shadow passing behind the curtains looks like an owl. An owl? At best, it's a handkerchief with owls drawn on it.

@tmurry, remember that the little man quite enjoys the taste of pain and sorrow himself.
φ
User avatar
bob_wooler
Posts: 270
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:00 am

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby bob_wooler » Thu May 04, 2017 8:38 am

Rainwater wrote:
StrangerDanger wrote:having his back turned to Coop while pretending to cry

I assume you're talking about the first Red Room scene in Cooper's dream. Interesting how differently people interpret that shot.
I think MFAP's twitching is much too ambiguous. I don't know if there's any intention behind it, other than unnerving the viewer, but I have no idea what it is he's doing.
On the topic of visual ambiguity, people have also said the rectangle-shaped shadow passing behind the curtains looks like an owl. An owl? At best, it's a handkerchief with owls drawn on it.

@tmurry, remember that the little man quite enjoys the taste of pain and sorrow himself.

Granted we're thinking of the same scene, I always thought he was just rubbing his hands (funny thing; googling "rubbing his hands", the very first image result you get is MFAP :lol: ).
User avatar
tmurry
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby tmurry » Thu May 04, 2017 9:31 am

Granted we're thinking of the same scene, I always thought he was just rubbing his hands (funny thing; googling "rubbing his hands", the very first image result you get is MFAP :lol: ).


I always chalk the hand rubbing up to the motif of kinetics/thermodynamics/time flow in the waiting room (and other similar places). The rubbing hands suggest "I'm getting warmed up," is similar to a fire-started maneuver and leads to "Let's rock." It is seen in the final episode as he freezes and unfreezes the coffee.
User avatar
StrangerDanger
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:46 am
Location: Another Place

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby StrangerDanger » Thu May 04, 2017 11:57 am

tmurry wrote:
the meeting above the convenience store just looks hellish


During that scene, MFAP is trying to talk Bob down and fails, resulting in Bob escaping. It is hellish... there is pain and sorrow everywhere but it isn't enough for Bob (he's got, y'know, momentum).


Please can you explain how MFAP is trying to talk BOB down? As l see it, MFAP is declaring the Black Lodge's modus operandi / their constitution. This would be some time after being kicked out of Paradise. They descend from pure air to the green forest on Earth. The various spirits in the meeting play different roles, e.g. the black guy = to possess / imitate animals, the boy Chalfont = to tally the dead victims of the Black Lodge, the lumberjack with glasses = to modulate the operating frequency of the "bubble" in which the Black Lodge travels (no idea why the meeting wasn't held in the Red Room though, rather than above the convenience store?), and of course BOB = the fury. After the meeting you see BOB and MFAP leave clearly on good terms with each other. Perhaps they go off and enter the Red Room.

Erm, so ... anyhow ... how was MFAP trying to talk BOB down? Genuinely interested in your ideas (not being mean!).
leeeET's ROCK!
[ I've permanently left the forum ... Dugpa is a dodgy name, plus l'm too busy. Keep the :?: :idea: ]
User avatar
tmurry
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby tmurry » Thu May 04, 2017 1:19 pm

I may be referring to the Missing Pieces version... I'll have to check later. I kind of run that into the canon of the film and maybe that's not fair. The youtube of the scene doesn't have the "fury of my own momentum line or the fire explosion, so I need to check. Right now, all I can do is refer to the script (which is the last refuge of scoundrels):

Bob claps his hand and a circle of fire appears in the room. BOB (subtitled)
Fire Walk With Me.

THROUGH THE CIRCLE

We see the RED ROOM.

ON THE SCENE

Bob crawls into the Red Room and Mike starts to yell and leaps in
after him. SECOND WOODSMAN (subtitled)
Thus time moves on.

The script is not definitive, obv, but one thing to note is it refers to Mike and MFAP as the same person: "In the foreground the Man From Another Place (Mike) and BOB sit at a formica table." and Mike Mike is not in the filmed scene.

I need to check the film and MP version, but after Bob says the fury line, MFAP recoils as if in horror and then follows Bob into the red room. I see this as an archetype representation of the other forces, through MFAP, losing control of Bob who escapes into the new context of the red room. Because MFAP is reactive to these drives (as the ego), Bob "wins" and he follows. Metaphor for the murderous impulses being acted upon/taking control of the mind.

The dancing guy represents the artistic/performer/shamanic impulse. That's who proto Lynch is attracted to, learning his mask and the magic necessary to, through art, make people's pain and sorrow disappear. Like. That.
User avatar
StrangerDanger
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:46 am
Location: Another Place

Re: Speculation on how MIKE got the ring back in FWWM?

Postby StrangerDanger » Thu May 04, 2017 5:21 pm

That's great, thanks! I got my ideas from a fan interpretation on YouTube, now deleted. Bye for now :)
leeeET's ROCK!
[ I've permanently left the forum ... Dugpa is a dodgy name, plus l'm too busy. Keep the :?: :idea: ]

Return to “Twin Peaks Movie, TV, Books”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests