The Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion Thread

[Audrey Horne]

It's just to me the entire tone changes too radically... And it's not because it's mixing genres, which the first season does so, so deftly. And for some of the second season it is still able to maintain
This delicate spell. I love the Just You moment because it's like a Lawrence Welch variety show number, but it's still grounded in truth, in the truth of this small town life. But after the solution of Laura Pamer, it's not even absurdist surrealism, it's just second rate silliness. The structure is a mess with no real tension. You take any of those late mid to late season second season episodes and watch the after the pilot, it's a completely different language. And it's sad to me because these characters were so, so wonderful. But then you get Lynch back in episode 29, and it's grounded in some real truth there; it's just grounded again.

[N. Needleman]

I love the whole show, warts and all, including the 'bad' episodes from the middle of Season 2, and some of that is bad. But I think even at its worst the show is better-written and put together than a lot of TV even today. There's a reason it remains timeless.

The truth is that Lynch was not cut out or interested IMO in being a long-term showrunner, and Frost wasn't around enough either. And that's what the show needed.

I think a lot of the humor in the latter half of S2 is very Lynch/Frost, and that Peyton/Engels (who often did great work) were taking their cues from them - there is a reason a lot of the more maligned S2 players recur in later works. And I like a lot of that humor. As Richard Beymer says in Brad's book, there is something of an evolution to Ben that would rarely be attempted for an archetypal villain like his again for a long time in TV, or even now - I find "Good Ben" fairly interesting, and I liked his changing relationships with people, even if it was strange and yes, does ring more artificial today, which is likely why they clearly signpost his reversal in the S2 finale. I like the Nadine/Mike romance more every time I see it and the early comedy with her and Ed ("where are Mom and Dad?" "Whoa! Uhhh... out of town"), though her material is episode 17 is still deeply bad and so off-brand. And I love Dick Tremayne. So I have time for all of TP, even the stuff the general public disdains. I think it's all of a piece, and I think even the worst of it broadens and opens the show up to a larger world, both good and bad.

When I was younger I loved most of the middle of S2 sans Evelyn, and I enjoyed the 'down time' after the mystery, just getting to watch the town live and breathe for a while. I understand the impulse they had to try and make the show viable long-term post-WKLP. But I think the mistake, aside from losing Laura and the Palmer cornerstone (as well as Audrey, IMO), lay in having so much of the supporting cast get lost in the shuffle.

I think some of the evolutions work in fits and spurts - Ben's change of soul is intriguing to me still if somewhat rushed and cartoonish, and I liked Bobby in his and Audrey's sphere even if the actors didn't (I also thought Dana and Sherilyn had real chemistry). I liked watching things change and grow. It was interesting recently to go from watching the pilot or episode 1 on Netflix, for example, to popping over to, I don't know which one it was, episode 25 or 26 with Bobby, Shelly, Donna and Mike all sharing a very rare scene together at the Roadhouse, with Mike and Bobby comparing notes for the first time in aeons on their changing lives. That to me was a fascinating contrast. Is it all perfect and fitting with the pilot or S1? No, but it's still a changing canvas.

Yet in the meantime, you have people like Mädchen who can barely buy story for weeks. You have Donna and James in their worst story, centered entirely on the continuum of James Marshall's performing range. Catherine and Josie flit about in their own sphere which becomes a bit too immersed in guest stars, and Cooper and Harry are dealing with Michael Parks for a bit too long. And then came Billy Zane, and Heather Graham, and a bit too much of Tim Pinkle, a bit too much of Little Nicky, entirely too much Lana, and so on... You end up with a lot of things that became too much of a good thing, and a few things that just feel forced, and then a few things that never worked at all.

I love Season 2 the best for its brilliance as well as its messiness, but I still acknowledge the mess. Looking at the show now when I'm older I see the seams stretching in the back end even with my love for it and I can see where it fails and falters, despite my affection for a lot of those stories. I think the Windom story mostly works, but takes too long to get going and does not need Windom's full debut to be him japing about in long underwear. I like Annie in doses, but she's not what was intended and it does feel terribly rushed. (I know one friend who decided Coop was a sexual predator because of his behavior with Annie, which I don't agree with at all but there you are.) And I like Nadine's capers and Ben's manic changes, but I can see where they just went too far away from the heart of the show.

IMO there's nothing wrong with a lot of the crazy humor and wild chances they took in the latter half of Season 2, and I expect a lot more of it in the new show. The problem was getting too far away from the central nexus, which was a show that still had to deal with an aching pain, grief and guilt, and the characters who lived with it and why. Crime capers with the Canadians and the DEA, or Dynasty-esque gamesmanship with Andrew Packard can only go so far. There's a reason I love the end of episode 23 so much, where BOB turns up out of nowhere in the Josie storyline a lot of people slightly unfairly write off (I mean, parts of it are terribly boring, but still) - it's a slap in the face to anyone, including the writers, who forgot what this show and this town really is, and how these forces can take anyone, anywhere. That's when the pieces start coming back together.

(I also love the "Just You" scene, for the record.)

[FrightNight]

So, let's get back to bashing S 2

In seriousness, there's absolutley NOTHING wrong with the show centering on Renault, Packard and Eckhardt for a while (if anything, those storylines could've been expanded a little more) and with Earle and Annie becoming the nexus of the show in the last 5-6 episodes ... The real problems lie with the S 1 characters withering or behaving madly, so by the end, you don't give a hang about what happens to them, Audrey, Bobby, Nadine, Ben, Donna 'n' all. But even that's not so bad as the town gets to breathe and have a little fun while the dark stuff's still simmering on the horizon (or just behind it), biding its time to strike again.

Windom being a "dark reflection of Dale" is a wonderful way of putting it, Dining With Diane! Great thinking!

[mtwentz]

So, let's get back to bashing S 2

In seriousness, there's absolutley NOTHING wrong with the show centering on Renault, Packard and Eckhardt for a while (if anything, those storylines could've been expanded a little more) and with Earle and Annie becoming the nexus of the show in the last 5-6 episodes ... The real problems lie with the S 1 characters withering or behaving madly, so by the end, you don't give a hang about what happens to them, Audrey, Bobby, Nadine, Ben, Donna 'n' all. But even that's not so bad as the town gets to breathe and have a little fun while the dark stuff's still simmering on the horizon (or just behind it), biding its time to strike again.

Windom being a "dark reflection of Dale" is a wonderful way of putting it, Dining With Diane! Great thinking!

I actually quite enjoyed the Renault and Eckhardt storylines (except the part where Josie ends up in the drawer knob). It brought some needed levity to the show after the intense darkness of the Laura Palmer revelation.

I think where Frost/Lynch really screwed up was with how Windom Earle was treated in the beginning. I found very little tension, very little mystery in that storyline until it became clear that Earle was seeking access to the Black Lodge. At that point, Windom Earle suddenly became interesting.

But before that, I thought having Earle torture Leo and stalk the girls was lacking in the needed dramatic tension.

But it all worked out in the end- I felt the show really got back on track for the last few episodes and ended with a bang.

As much as I've heard people criticize the ending, how many shows get to go out in a spectacular way like Season 2 of Twin Peaks went out, with its creator directing a mind bending trip into the otherwordly Red Room?

[Audrey Horne]

"... I liked watching things change and grow..."

Of course. And that was the beauty and the excitement of this show for me, and the thrill of the anticipation of what will happen after LP. But for me, it didn't grow, it kept sputtering. It might have to do with losing the momentum when it aired. But also with those scattered and preemptive dates, you also kept getting plot lines started and then dropped. Nothing to latch onto. Even if you want to use some of the considered bad stories as examples, nothing ever followed through. Introduce Little Nicky one week, build on it the next week, have viewers speculate in the weeks between and then nothing. Windom plays with cards one week, then chess moves another, then nothing, no pay offs with any of his tactics used. MT Wentz is coming to town, fine. And fine if it's a slow burn before the reveal. But then there's NO reveal. The reveal is already with Norma processing the bad news. It was just very frustrating.

[Ross]

My "Unorthodox/Controversial TP Opinion" is that I actually love the whole show.

[N. Needleman]

As do I, basically.

Except Evelyn.

[Audrey Horne]

As do I.

Except for... (Well, you all know how cranky I can get. Thanks for enduring it.)

[Dining With Diane]

I think a lot of the stuff in Season 2 after Leland's death is more about fleshing out Twin peaks as a town - the audience arrives in Twin Peaks with Dale Cooper, and for most of Season 1 we experience the town as outsiders getting a first glimpse of it like Dale. with Laura's murder solved and a good chunk of Season 2 over, we start to see all the other things going on in town that have nothing to do with Laura Palmer and that give us a better sense of the place.

for every Laura Palmer or Dale Cooper caught somewhere between the two worlds of sweet small town quirkiness and dark twisted small town evil, There's a bunch of Dougie Milfords or Hank Jenningses who keep to one side or the other.

[David Locke]

Here's two:

I think Frost's Season 1 finale is a massive disappointment coming after the previous episodes -- not bad per se, but far from great. It trades the usual mystery and wonder and atmosphere of Twin Peaks for a kind of regular old cop-show/soap/network TV feel, and as a result it's lacking in pretty much everything I love about Twin Peaks, even though it may be competently made and I suppose effective in making viewers tune in for Season 2. But all those cliffhangers just highlight what's so dull about the episode -- it's only interested in genre, in deconstructing or just playing with the soapiness of it all and in delivering a good detective story, bad guys brought to justice and all. In previous episodes we got some of that, the Invitation to Love stuff, but we also got the inimitable atmosphere of Twin Peaks, the town, with its dark woods, its mystery, its ineffable dreaminess. Instead in Frost's finale we get Shelly tied up while a mill-fire blazes and strangely out-of-character generic electronic "suspense" music plays... basically, I don't feel like the finale is even making fun of or changing up soap/TV convention so much as taking them to their absolute limit. It's just a dry, prosaic episode that calls out for the poetry of not only Lynch but Hunter, Linka Glatter, Deschanel, etc.

Another opinion is that I don't really hate the James/Evelyn stuff as much as most seem to. I don't like it very much, but honestly it's almost a respite from all the other S2 slump material like super-Nadine, General Horne, Little Nicky, Lana, the mayor, or Windom the goofy Master of Disguise. Why? Simply put, it feels closer to the tone of Twin Peaks. Those other stories that so sully S2 feel so out-of-place and are such a waste of time in large part because (as has been mentioned) their utter absurdity, lack of darkness and emphasis on pure slapstick or comedy which isn't even funny at all, just does not feel like Twin Peaks. It feels like some strange Sunday afternoon soap. The James plot at least attempts a kind of noir pastiche, has some atmospheric locations like Wally's and the mansion, and while badly acted and pointless and nonsensical still is more welcome to me than Andy seeing Little Nicky in devil attire, or the mayor and his brother fighting.

[Audrey Horne]

Did anyone see The Silence of the Lambs? I mean when it came out in February 1991. And I know no one was expecting it to be the huge hit and classic award winner at that time. Anyway, I saw it that opening weekend... And I remember the opening had similar font to Pekas, and lots of grey. And the it kinda scooped Windom Earle with the devious Hannibal playing cat and mouse with the FBI agent. I keep forgetting that was another element for me at that time that added to my luke warm feelings. I had no anger at the dropped Cooper, Audrey plot... because I didn't think it was dropped, just being saved for the last four or five episodes.

[Audrey Horne]

David, I personally loved the finale when it aired. And I guess it is impossible for me to separate my feelings with how I initially felt. But I understand everything you state. I think my feelings were that up until then it had been such a wonderful slow burn, that it was really exciting to get this rapid fast pace with all the cliffhangers. I remember I was actually really excited that the murderer wasn't revealed. So any people felt cheated, but I was having so much fun speculating, and was happy to have an entire summer to still work on the puzzle.

But on that subject, my least favorite episode is the one where Cooper solves the crime and Leland dies. It's a fan favorite, but I just never feel it worked. Yes, of course Wise is terrific, but he's a great actor and it's a meaty scene no matter what. I just don't like any of the structure of the episode. And Cooper always surprised us... The rock throw, the eye reflected in the motorcycle. So I was disappointed that after months of clues, it is all forced in that Roadhouse scene with Laura whispering the answer.

[David Locke]

David, I personally loved the finale when it aired. And I guess it is impossible for me to separate my feelings with how I initially felt. But I understand everything you state. I think my feelings were that up until then it had been such a wonderful slow burn, that it was really exciting to get this rapid fast pace with all the cliffhangers. I remember I was actually really excited that the murderer wasn't revealed. So any people felt cheated, but I was having so much fun speculating, and was happy to have an entire summer to still work on the puzzle.

But on that subject, my least favorite episode is the one where Cooper solves the crime and Leland dies. It's a fan favorite, but I just never feel it worked. Yes, of course Wise is terrific, but he's a great actor and it's a meaty scene no matter what. I just don't like any of the structure of the episode. And Cooper always surprised us... The rock throw, the eye reflected in the motorcycle. So I was disappointed that after months of clues, it is all forced in that Roadhouse scene with Laura whispering the answer.

I do remember liking the S1 finale a good deal when I first saw it, and found the craziness of it exciting. I suppose just looking at it again since it feels like it's missing that certain something to me. I'm still baffled by the people who were impatient that the killer wasn't revealed after the first season. I don't understand such a cerebral and demanding way of watching, where it's as if once they find out this piece of information (WKLP) then they will be satisfied and have no reason to care about the show any more -- as if it's just a delivery mechanism for some big Answer.

Like many people, my feelings on Episode 16 are mixed, but I've come to enjoy it more over time. I don't like the way it seems to excuse Leland's behavior, and I don't like the grating literal-ness of the way the thing is solved (including the very forced Roadhouse gathering)... but there are a ton of great moments in there, too, and it is stylishly directed by Hunter in a way that just manages to not be too distracting. (The early scene of James and Donna at the RR is lit and shot in such a strange, beautiful way that it almost doesn't look like the RR at all). I also have some fondness for it because it is the last episode of Twin Peaks possibly until the S2 finale that really feels like the Peaks I know and love, with its focus on the Palmers, lack of unnecessary comedic subplots (well, mostly) and its tightly-wound sense of narrative (even if it's a bit too tidy). I have a few problems with Wise's acting, actually -- mostly just when he goes over-the-top in the jail cell, switching between BOB and himself and howling like an animal, etc. But he's marvelous in the rest of it, and his death scene is of course superb. The ending of the episode still disappoints just because I can remember my semi-excitement on first viewing of how, even though this mystery had been put to rest, we would still be able to explore the dark woods and where BOB is now and all those things about the show that so fascinated me. Instead, of course, it's as if the show decided to do the exact opposite.

[Brad D]

Ep 16 is fine and all, but wow, I wish Lynch had directed that one. Ep 17 too, assuming he would trash most of the script...

[N. Needleman]

I have little to no problem with episode 16. I think it's Frost translating Lynch's dream logic, as I think he often did, and I don't think all of Cooper's conclusions can be taken as gospel but I also think they have a double meaning - what Cooper deduces them as, Holmes-style vs. what they actually are, which is Lynch's unknowable other world. Both versions are true in the context of the person from the human world struggling to make sense of the Red Room and the Black Lodge.

I think so much of it is so great. It isn't the same as episode 14, but what would be? I think it' s a very strong conclusion to the mystery.

And yes, I'd kill for Lynch to have directed it and thrown out episode 17.