Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by LostInTheMovies »

I am really glad I thought to post this. It is going to be SO interesting to look back on this thread in 2016/17 and figure out how close we were, or weren't!
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Hey, guys. Second-time poster on these boards (first time posting on the Peaks forum). I've been lurking and following all the developments of the new season avidly. This board is definitely the place to be right now.

The "Evil Coop" story is going to be such a difficult line for the new season to walk. From a storytelling standpoint, it would be cheating to not have the "possessed Coop" storyline be a key aspect of the new season (I hate cliffhangers that get resolved in the first two minutes of the next episode. This isn't 'Perils of Pauline' or the old 'Batman' serials). Furthermore, if Evil Coop were out in the world for the past 25 years, it would be absurd for him not to have done a LOT of terrible things. On top of this, there's the "Leland" of it all: how accountable are Bob's hosts, exactly? I align myself with the crowd that believes Laura's story, and the entirety of FWWM, are cheapened to the point of near-worthlessness if Leland was "only following orders." The mythology is great and creepy and fun. But Bob's hosts need to be accountable if I'm to care about these characters. It can't be "Bob made him do it," or "That was just a double who looked like our Coop." There's nothing narratively interesting about. (Contrast the blandness of the "evil lookalike John Locke" in the last season of 'Lost' - which gave Terry O'Quinn some great material to play, but had no connection to the prior version of the character - with Lynch's brilliant use of doubles in 'Mulholland Drive,' 'Inland Empire,' &c., where the doubles provided depth and insight to the "real" characters' inner lives).

But where does that leave us? All of the above implies that what I want - nay, NEED - from the new series is an Agent Cooper who has been committing terrible crimes (probably several murders) for the past two and a half decades. And he has to be cognizant of and accountable for his misdeeds.

But...ick. That's not what I want, at all. Coop is one of the warmest, most charming, likable characters in TV history. While I'm all for exploring his darker side and humanizing him a bit, I don't want the memory of his character tarnished by his committing atrocities. Undoubtedly, Lynch will come up with a way of dealing with all of this in way that none of us can even begin to conceptualize. This seems particularly certain in light of his aforementioned brilliant use of duality in his recent films. But it is a bit of a Catch-22 - Coop isn't Diane Selwyn or Nikki Grace; he's a character with whom we all have a multi-decade history that we don't want ruined.

I think the key to all of this might be the "symbiotic" relationship between Bob and his hosts that some fans have theorized. Bob feeds on the misery of his hosts and their victims, and in return he enables the hosts to act on their most repulsive impulses. Leland's crimes involved having sex with and murdering his daughter (and, before that, other young girls as surrogates), because Leland WAS sexually attracted to Laura, and resented both himself and her for it. He would have had those impulses buried away inside of him with or without Bob. However, he might not have ever acted on them (or, based on 'Between Two Worlds,' might have only had sex with the other girls as proxies for Laura, but not committed incest) without Bob giving him the "push." Therefore, Coop's crimes under Bob's possession will likely be very very different from Leland's. We've seen brief hints of darkness in Coop, largely manifested as inwardly-directed resentment at himself for not protecting Caroline/Annie/Audrey - but certainly, there is something more complicated underlying that. The Scott Frost book (which Lynch probably hasn't read) hints at a complicated (albeit generally played for laughs) relationship with sex, and a strong aversion to physical violence. How does all of this come into play when Bob releases Cooper's id? We'll have to see....but I think his (potentially 25-year) rampage will be very, very different from what Leland was doing. Perhaps equally horrifying, but in a way true to the Dale Cooper we all (think we) know and love.

One thing is for certain: It should give MacLachlan the opportunity to show some great range. He recently appeared on 'Agents of SHIELD' as a sinister, insane character (with some very Lynchian hair). While I gave up on that show after a few episodes, I made it a point to watch a few of Kyle's appearances, and he clearly had a lot of fun playing a more "evil" role than I've ever seen him in before. As much as I'm excited to see MacLachlan re-inhabiting the "real" Coop, and to bask in the warm glow of that winning grin (with a few extra crow's feet around the eyes), I'm equally eager to see him really cut loose as the "Where's Annie" version of Coop we've all been dying to see more of for far, far too long.

EDIT: Given how much of a cipher for Lynch Cooper was ("He says the same things I do"), this could be a really fascinating opportunity for Lynch to explore the duality between his own Eagle Scout/Jimmy Stewart public persona and the darkness and anger that he does his best to hide away beneath the surface (or to kill through meditation). Hmmm. There is potential here for this to be his most personal work since 'Eraserhead.'
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by LostInTheMovies »

Brilliantly articulated, Mr. Reindeer. That's exactly the quandary I've found myself in. For the sake of drama, the show needs to be about evil Cooper and for the same of thematic depth it needs to have Cooper be somewhat responsible for Bob's actions, but the idea of the Cooper we all only and love becoming like Leland in FWWM is a bitter pill to swallow. And I say that as someone generally willing to go to whatever dark, disturbing places a director feels necessary.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

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Very good points. I was just having a conversation with my friend... we've both been enjoying the modern renaissance of modern scripted hour long dramas, and he commented that it seems good people aren't interesting enough to carry these shows. I'm not sure I agree with the premise, but none the less it does seem to be the case that the most interesting characters are morally ambiguous and even sometimes flat out bad. The first character that popped into my head as a counter example: Agent Cooper. And I also am not sure how much I want to see Cooper having committed heinous acts.

I read an eye opening, but very difficult article recently written by a pedophile: http://www.salon.com/2015/09/21/im_a_pe ... a_monster/

Like many others before reading it I more or less thought of pedophiles as the worst kind of human being, and I still think that about those who act on their urges... but until seeing the article I'd never put much thought towards people who might be engaged in a life long struggle not to act on their urges. What a horrible predicament. But it seems to me as though Bob could be a metaphor for something like that. At least the awful humanity of that predicament could be a powerful thing to explore as it relates to what Cooper has been up to for twenty five years. I'd definitely like to see Cooper fair better than Leland.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by HoodedMatt »

- Do you think the Cooper we meet in the new season will be the familiar Cooper we all know and love from the show, finally escaped from the Black Lodge?

No. I want him to still be in the Lodge, but perhaps able to project himself out of it occasionally (and at great risk to his well being, just to stop it from being overused) and only to people who he has a strong connection to. Like Annie, Harry, Albert and Gordon Cole.

- Or do you think the Cooper we follow will be the evil Coop/doppelganger/Bob host we see at the end of the finale and Missing Pieces?

I think we will follow him in "our" world, yes.

- If the latter, do you think we will also keep tabs on the good Coop inside the Lodge as we did in FWWM?

Of course. However the split between Coops works, we still have two Coops and to ignore one of them would rob the show of an excellent source of drama.

- Has evil Coop become a better impersonator since his rather unconvincing performance in the finale and especially the Missing Pieces?

It'll depend where Cooper is at the start of the show. If he's still in the FBI, then he must have at least gained enough control to fool enough of the people most of the time. I kinda hope not though.

- Will people be aware of evil Coop's actions, or will he do as good a job concealing his dark side as Leland/Bob did before his daughter's death?

I think that some people may have lost faith in Coop post-split, but most people are convinced. I like to think that Gordon Cole, Albert, Harry, Hawk and Doc Hayward would know that something isn't quite right, where as Andy, Lucy and pretty much everyone else would be taken in. Maybe Evil Coop is quicker to anger than Good Coop and a bit more trigger happy to boot? I can kind of see Albert being out of the picture as Evil Coop getting more violent left a bad taste in his pacifist mouth.

- If so, do you think we as audience will be led to question if the good Coop has returned, or will we always be made aware that this is evil Coop we're watching?

I think it's gonna be ambiguous for a bit. I'll be surprised if Lynch & Frost let us in on it from the off.

- Will evil Coop be imprisoned, or in an asylum, or hiding away, or whatever?

I don't think so. Were this season 3 back in the day, then I can see Coop being in a psych ward or assylum to begin with, but I don't think it would be a good idea for him to have been locked away for 25 years. Nor do I think it would be a good idea for him to have been locked away relatively recently, say 5 or so years ago, and released at the start of the new show. If he's to be Special Agent Dale Cooper, then I think he needs to have been doing that for a long time for the "see you in 25 years" to be in any way meaningful.

- If the good Coop is still in the Lodge, by what means can he escape - does someone have to rescue him from outside, does someone (like Laura) have to rescue him from inside, or must he engineer his own re-emergence?

I think that Laura will be a part of what sets him free but he will need to be an active agent in his escape, if you'll pardon the pun. As I said before, I rather like the idea of him finding a way to reach out to his friends and give them clues or pointers on how to stop Evil Coop. That might be enough to allow EC to end up in the Lodge and allow GC to face him with perfect courage and rejoin to become one whole Cooper again.

- Will we see two Coops out loose in the world together at one point or can only one (or a combination of both in one body) be manifest in the real world? And will other characters see both of them together?

I don't think we'll physically see both halves of Cooper in the real world, no. That said, I expect we'll see a few instances where perhaps video cameras can pick up Good Coop's psychic projection (ala the hallway scene from FWWM) and perhaps Hawk or Gordon Cole sees Good Coop's projection alongside the physical Evil Coop. I'll be very surprised if we don't get at least some video camera double Coop action.

- If the former, will we actually see them share the same physical space, or will we just be generally aware that both are out there and at any moment we could be seeing one or the other?

I hope we won't see them together until the end of Cooper's arc and the defeat of Evil Coop. If they are both physical then build lots of suspense and tension by having them almost crossing paths but missing each other by minutes at the least and hours or a day at the most.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by StealThisCorn »

Do you think the Cooper we meet in the new season will be the familiar Cooper we all know and love from the show, finally escaped from the Black Lodge?

No, I feel that would be a huge narrative disservice as Lynch/Frost knows that fans have been waiting for a satisfying exploration of the ramifications of that cliffhanger for decades.

Or do you think the Cooper we follow will be the evil Coop/doppelganger/Bob host we see at the end of the finale and Missing Pieces? If the latter, do you think we will also keep tabs on the good Coop inside the Lodge as we did in FWWM?

I think MacLachlan and Lynch will play it more ambiguously, but I definitely think it will be the fallen Cooper we see at the end of the series and the Missing Pieces. I could see Lynch filming brief scenes of an old, weary Cooper wandering around the Red Room (hopefully making out with Sheryl Lee ;)), but I think it depends on how coy he wants to be with Cooper's fate in the new series. If he shows us Cooper in the Red Room, we will know for certain that we are still dealing with the fallen Cooper.

Has evil Coop become a better impersonator since his rather unconvincing performance in the finale and especially the Missing Pieces?

I think the Missing Pieces show us emphatically that Lynch and Engels were definitely going in that direction and intended to show us that the evil Cooper would adapt to his role and be able to explain away his bizarre behavior ("I fell when my head struck the glass").

Will people be aware of evil Coop's actions, or will he do as good a job concealing his dark side as Leland/Bob did before his daughter's death?


I think he should have the same kind of Cooper eccentricity and charm but played with a knowing darkness and edge to it (maybe a sinister grin for the viewer when no one is watching), much like Leland. I think that part of the backstory going into the new series should be that Annie was murdered soon after Cooper returned from Glastonbury Grove, by Cooper himself, to keep the events that transpired in the Red Room a secret and feed BOB some more garmonbozia. I think Cooper will have played this off as the work of Windom Earle who he will claim also escaped the Grove and is "still out there". The ensuing FBI manhunt, spearheaded by Cooper, will be a a dead end, naturally, but Cooper will remain above suspicion. This could be the first in a series of new mysterious rape-murders committed by Cooper and BOB together over the past 25 years. With Annie dead also, it would be a guilty pleasure of mine to see this series finally make some room for him and Audrey after all this time.

If so, do you think we as audience will be led to question if the good Coop has returned, or will we always be made aware that this is evil Coop we're watching?


I think Lynch and MacLachlan might play it ambiguously in the very beginning, but I don't think it will take long for it to become apparent (a la the wink and nod of a sinister smile or ominous Baadalamenti track/Lynchian ambient noise) because I think they don't want to just play the same tired old lovable Cooper, but explore a new portrayal of his character after his fall at the end of the series.

Will evil Coop be imprisoned, or in an asylum, or hiding away, or whatever?


I really, really hope not, as I feel that's a boring way to explain the last 25 years. If I were thinking realistically, I would say Cooper doesn't even remain long in Twin Peaks after Annie's murder (see above) and goes back to FBI. Obviously something or someone will have to draw him back.

If the good Coop is still in the Lodge, by what means can he escape - does someone have to rescue him from outside, does someone (like Laura) have to rescue him from inside, or must he engineer his own re-emergence?

Damn good question and one that I think is tied up with another question -- how does one defeat BOB? The only mortal we've seen defeat BOB was Laura who foiled his designs on her with her strength of character and by taking the ring, but ultimately she sacrificed her life for it. That's not a reassuring prospect for Cooper, especially if he has been committing heinous crimes in the past 25 years that, should they be exposed, he will have to face the consequences of regardless of any claims to supernatural forces. I could see some form of "time travel" perhaps playing a part in this, setting the wrong things right, similar to how we see BOB reverse time in the Red Room to undo Windom's stabbing of Cooper. I also want Laura's diary entry, "the good Dale is in the Lodge and he can't leave" to be a factor in this as it keeps Laura's significance in the narrative and pays off that dangling thread (also if Annie was murdered, it gives her a part to play in the final solution). I also think it may involve Cooper having to learn the lesson of his failure in the first place, his mistake in thinking of BOB as a purely external force responsible for all of Leland's actions rather than an insidious, inner corrupting bond that he himself could be vulnerable to. This may involve an act of balance, embracing and excepting his shadow self (you've pointed out many times how Lynch loves balance, not division) rather than denying it. Or does Cooper need an Angel like Ronnette in the train car? Or will Laura BE Cooper's Angel? This also calls into question how the ending of FWWM will be interpreted in light of the new material. Because of the timeless nature of the Lodge, it makes sense that Cooper was always there as soon as he was trapped there so that he could be there to help Laura right after her death (and recall Laura in the series wrote about how she saw dream Cooper as a potentially helpful protector and wondered if he was MIKE). Will this event still have transpired even if the Good Dale escapes the Lodge?

I think the question of how to save Cooper is the most difficult to imagine but I would bet Frost and Lynch brainstormed an amazing answer or they wouldn't be doing this.

Will we see two Coops out loose in the world together at one point or can only one (or a combination of both in one body) be manifest in the real world? And will other characters see both of them together?


No. I think two physical Coopers running around in the world is too ridiculous and I think his experience in the Red Room was a psychic ordeal anyway. I think it's his mind that is split in two, and the evil half is now partnered with BOB. I think if the Good Dale escapes the Red Room it will be like he resurfaces in his mind and body and has to live with the horror of whatever he has done.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by LostInTheMovies »

Someone made a new topic which is heavily related to this and contains some interesting observations about alchemy, why Coop might appear a mixture of good & bad, and about why Coop might become a pharmacist: http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43838#p43838
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by Dalai Cooper »

^haven't clicked that thread due to the spoiler warning, but I assume it has to do in part with halperidol, which just occurred to me today as the simplest answer to a lot of the above questions - cooper learning to maintain a fragile control over his alter ego in a similar way to gerrard (if not the exact same method). Maybe a little too pat for lynch & frost, who'll probably come up with something nobody could have guessed, but I'm annoyed I didn't think of it till now.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by Aqua »

Copying the recent post from the general Spoiler thread, as, although asking a different/wider question at the end, the discussion on the Coop in the book itself once gone deeper into is definitely related to the questions discussed herein and maybe can generate additional insights specific therein if anyone has time for this

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 445#p47700

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 445#p47711
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by silenttwn »

I'd be severely disappointed if they don't follow the series finale, as well as FWWM/Missing Pieces, and just clean-slate it. To me Cooper's predicament at the end of the show was completely brilliant as a plot point as well as an over-the-top cliffhanger. The character doppelgangers work so well with the theme of dualism in the show.

Starting with evil Coop also gives the writers an obvious arc of him coming around back to good Coop, which is what I predict they're going to do.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by Boy »

Maybe he's done some hideous things over the years and some super-weird-evil-plotting with great ambitions. I think Cooper will be a friking bad ass in this one. And scary. Unpredictable.

I also like the idea that the watchers don't know if he's a good or bad.

The season could be ultimately about Cooper dealing with the things he's done.
How they gonna resolve it?

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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by painjoiker »

- Do you think the Cooper we meet in the new season will be the familiar Cooper we all know and love from the show, finally escaped from the Black Lodge?

No. I think it will be the evil cooper as this storyline is too good to not be used.

- Or do you think the Cooper we follow will be the evil Coop/doppelganger/Bob host we see at the end of the finale and Missing Pieces?

Yes, I believe this and I will explain below why I strongly believe this to be true.

- If the latter, do you think we will also keep tabs on the good Coop inside the Lodge as we did in FWWM?

We will have some scenes with the good Coop inside the Lodge. We have already had a scene in the show showing us Cooper 25 years later still in the Lodge. I don't know if this was intentional in any way, but I think this is a great way to "use" that. The 25 years flash forward is good Coop "hanging out" in the Lodge while the evil one is doing bad stuff in the real world.

- Has evil Coop become a better impersonator since his rather unconvincing performance in the finale and especially the Missing Pieces?

Yes. If evil Coop has been in the real world for 25 years I do believe he does "mostly" seem good to most people like Leland did.

- Will people be aware of evil Coop's actions, or will he do as good a job concealing his dark side as Leland/Bob did before his daughter's death?

I am sure he is good at hiding the fact that he has done bad things. I really hope, if Truman and Annie is not in the new series that is because of evil Coop killing them off. That is the best reason in my opinion for them not being there.

- If so, do you think we as audience will be led to question if the good Coop has returned, or will we always be made aware that this is evil Coop we're watching?

I hope that when the season starts we will not know if Cooper is good or bad. I don't know how long this will go for, but at some point we will have to know and then have scenes intercut between bad coop in the real world and then good coop in the Lodge. It may be revealed at the end of the first episode for all I know, but hopefully we will go at least one episode without knowing which coop it is.

- Will evil Coop be imprisoned, or in an asylum, or hiding away, or whatever?

I hope not. I hope most people think he is the good coop and the eventual people have doubts being unable to do anything about it for some reason.

- If the good Coop is still in the Lodge, by what means can he escape - does someone have to rescue him from outside, does someone (like Laura) have to rescue him from inside, or must he engineer his own re-emergence?

This I have no clue about. I really don't know what to think of this as of now.

- Will we see two Coops out loose in the world together at one point or can only one (or a combination of both in one body) be manifest in the real world? And will other characters see both of them together?

We might do that at some point, but I really hope the thing is that in the real world there's only one body for one person. Which means if good Coop manages to escape while evil Coop is still in the real world, they will both be in the same body "fighting" internally of control. The "winner" controls which actions the other part is aware of, kind of like Leland.

- If the former, will we actually see them share the same physical space, or will we just be generally aware that both are out there and at any moment we could be seeing one or the other?

As I said above I think they will share the same body if both are in the real world.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by Harry S. Truman »

Very interesting.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by Dining With Diane »

LostInTheMovies wrote:I've noticed that this is one of the areas people seem to disagree about the most.

I would love to hear 2 answers for each of these, what you THINK will happen but also what you PREFER to happen (if you have a preference).
- Do you think the Cooper we meet in the new season will be the familiar Cooper we all know and love from the show, finally escaped from the Black Lodge?


- Or do you think the Cooper we follow will be the evil Coop/doppelganger/Bob host we see at the end of the finale and Missing Pieces?[/quote]

my preference is both. Maclachlan did a great villain in Agents of SHIELD season 2, I'd love to see him be evil again. and i miss the original cooper. so both. i want some good coop/bad coop action

What I think we'll get is a cooper who realized what was going on and learned to harness if not outright banish his evil side, and i suspect he'll turn out more like Jerry Horne or pre-arrest windham earle than Leland Palmer.

- If the latter, do you think we will also keep tabs on the good Coop inside the Lodge as we did in FWWM?

I think we will revisit the red room/black lodge, with Cooper going there in dreams as before, and we'll see some familiar faces from Twin Peaks and assorted David Lynch movies.

- Has evil Coop become a better impersonator since his rather unconvincing performance in the finale and especially the Missing Pieces?

sort of. I think we're getting a Merged Coop, so he is a smooth criminal and quite good at finding/stopping the less smooth criminals.

- Will people be aware of evil Coop's actions, or will he do as good a job concealing his dark side as Leland/Bob did before his daughter's death?

Merged Coop will be quite good at pinning his evil deeds on others.

- If so, do you think we as audience will be led to question if the good Coop has returned, or will we always be made aware that this is evil Coop we're watching?

if we don't get a fully merged coop, we will definitely see two distinct Coops, but which one is good and which one is evil will not be clear.

- Will evil Coop be imprisoned, or in an asylum, or hiding away, or whatever?

if we do get an Evil Coop, i think Good Coop will make an effort to steer his doppelganger away from civilzation.

- If the good Coop is still in the Lodge, by what means can he escape - does someone have to rescue him from outside, does someone (like Laura) have to rescue him from inside, or must he engineer his own re-emergence?

since other spirits in the Lodge have ways to interact with the world, I suspect a trapped Good Coop will learn to do the same. he could possess other characters as Bob has done, or give cryptic dream messages like Laura and Mike's Arm. if not, after three decades of creamed corn in this joint, we could be having a discussion about Evil Coop vs practically-a-vegetable Coop
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- Will we see two Coops out loose in the world together at one point or can only one (or a combination of both in one body) be manifest in the real world? And will other characters see both of them together?

if not a merged Coop, then one body with two personalities.

- If the former, will we actually see them share the same physical space, or will we just be generally aware that both are out there and at any moment we could be seeing one or the other?

I think we won't know which Coop we're dealing with at any given point.
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Re: Cooper in season 3: good Coop or evil Coop?

Post by wAtChLaR »

both out running around like an evil twin
doppleganger
both 1946 and 1984
(jane seymour as emerald and jade :lol: )
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