Cooper's lost soul

[LostInTheMovies]

Great discussion here! So many different things to consider.

[MasterMastermind]

It begs the question, though, if BOB ever leaves a host without completely destroying it. I don't know that I believe that. I don't think most people who have Lodge spirits in them tend to just walk away and pick up their lives. Gerard has lived with MIKE for years.

Personally, I can't see BOB giving up Leland for Laura so much as having Laura, and keeping Leland too somehow. He had been with Leland for the better part of Leland's lifetime.

Interesting. If he didn't plan to keep Leland, aybe he planned to take over Laura and kill Leland as her?

[LostInTheMovies]

It begs the question, though, if BOB ever leaves a host without completely destroying it. I don't know that I believe that. I don't think most people who have Lodge spirits in them tend to just walk away and pick up their lives. Gerard has lived with MIKE for years.

Personally, I can't see BOB giving up Leland for Laura so much as having Laura, and keeping Leland too somehow. He had been with Leland for the better part of Leland's lifetime.

Interesting. If he didn't plan to keep Leland, aybe he planned to take over Laura and kill Leland as her?

I joked about that recently with someone - what if Twin Peaks opened with Ray Wise's body washing up on shore, wrapped in plastic, and the next several episodes saw Sheryl Lee weeping and dancing and singing around town?

But it is an open question, really. I think that route would be a bit more implausible (for one thing, Laura's murder of Leland would seem more justifiable than vice-versa) but maybe he could have her kill Ronette and then in the next day or two, a vacated, shellshocked Leland commits suicide at Bob's behest (basically as he ends up doing anyway in ep. 16)?

This would still be consistent with the idea of him "setting up base camp" more or less in one host at a time (even though he can obviously act out beyond the physical limits of that host - see him tormenting Laura in her diary or appearing to Sarah and Maddy in visions). And it would hold water as a real-world cover-up too. Maybe Leland's involvement of the death of Ronette would even be exposed - maybe connected to Teresa's death (the "R" that ended up in Laura's finger would have made a perfect fit for "R"onette after "T"eresa). The whole town would have been abuzz about how a serial killer could have lived in their midst all this time, even as the real killer lived under their very noses.

Come to think of it, this is almost a perfect alternate reality (hmmm....). Bob's big plan could have been to hop from Leland, a host who was starting to crack after 40 years, to Laura whose beautiful looks and popular persona made her an even better disguise. Of course this doesn't address any designs he might have had on Cooper (as hinted by the book, among other things - and possibly the "Pittsburgh" line in ep. 16), suggesting instead that he was - in true Lynchian fashion - a Plan B that ended up being even better than Plan A.

Something else, and maybe this is a topic for another thread, or at least another message, but I'll post it here. It used to seem like the murders were, at the very least, the moment where Bob was most at the fore. Even considering Leland's responsibility for and knowledge of Laura's abuse, as revealed in FWWM, I thought that maybe it was Bob who was the real killer (if not the real - or the ONLY real - abuser). Now I almost see it the opposite way. It's Leland who has the clearest motive to murder Teresa, Laura, and Maddy - all young women that he thought he controlled, only for him to have them defy his will. It's not so clearcut with Bob.

The murder of Teresa does help Bob (by preventing an exposure of his host's sins and thus blowing his cover). And the murder of Laura works as Bob's punishment for her emphatic refusal. But Maddy? Killing her ultimately brings more heat on the murder case and on Leland, and leads to Bob losing his host within a few days. I know Bob thrives on fear & the pleasures (and possibly pain & sorrow) in an almost animalistic fashion, but he also seems to be pretty clever and calculating. It's not as if he's been on a rampant killing spree as Leland for 40 years, at least not that we know of (and there's really no reason to believe otherwise). His enjoyment of Leland seems to be less about using him as a vehicle to kill than feeding off his sick desires and fear of exposure as well as that of his long-term victim, Laura, both through him and perhaps independently. It's about sustaining the suffering, not quick fixes.

A few options occur to me:

- Bob is simply along for the ride and while he can "steer" Leland in a certain direction he can't fully control him. Leland is getting out of hand at this point and even going rogue. But I don't really buy this because, among other reasons, Bob certainly seems "into" Maddy's murder; plus, he picks the white fur off the fox in Ben's office (the night before Leland gets his own motive, which is Maddy announcing she's going to leave - so it seems like Bob already has this in mind and is waiting for Leland's own motivation to arise so they can work together).

- Bob wants out of Leland. This is consistent with the idea that his plan was to get Laura to kill Ronette and, her suitability as a host proven, simultaneously snap Leland so that he could kill himself and be out of the way (I like N. Needleman's suggestion that Bob's hosts don't get out alive although that certainly sounds ominous for Cooper). The Laura part failed but maybe the Leland part just took a little longer than usual and - especially after glimpsing Cooper (or, having known about him all along, realized that he is positioning him for a fall) - Bob is as much sick of this host as he is ready for a new one. Actually, the ep. 16 monologue in the jail cell suggests as much. (That speech too raises all kinds of questions about Leland's relationship to Bob which are best addressed elsewhere.) So the idea would be that Bob wants Leland to kill Maddy not only for the quick harvest of fear but because it will hasten his host's own end.

- Bob is not necessarily looking to get out of Leland (after all, it's probably easier for him to groom & eventually hop into Cooper while out in the world with a human host than having to work behind the gates of the Lodge) and he has his own reason for killing Maddy. Maybe it's becoming a new or resurgent addiction for him (apparently he and Mike killed together for years and maybe he was starting to miss it when Teresa came along) and just as Leland is cracking apart as a host, a glutted, greedy Bob (who has been hoarding all the garmonbozia) is falling apart too. Or maybe there's something else I'm missing - it seems like, aside from the pain and/or fear it generates - Bob has additional reasons to kill Teresa & Laura. But with Maddy it just seems like pure "I wanna murder" on his pat. Hmm.

- Maybe Leland HAS killed many times before. In fact, maybe he and Phillip Gerard killed together when both were possessed, and Mike's story in Cooper's dream isn't an ageold metaphysical story as we've all assumed but something that happened pretty recently for both spirits? It's just an idea, and one I'd never considered before writing it down just now, but it does intrigue me. After all, the scene where Phillip Gerard races up to Leland in traffic and assaults him always had me wondering, does Leland REALLY have no idea who this guy is? Or do they know each other? And does the fact that Al Strobel is using Phillip's rather than Mike's voice signify that this is as much about Phillip confronting Leland (somehow knowing about the murder of Teresa, maybe even helping him set it up) as it is Mike confronting Bob? I always love the idea of everything working on two levels simultaneously. This is admittedly now on the level of complete headcanon, but what if the lawyer and shoe salesman frequented the same prostitutes or attended the same parties and ended up being into some of the same kinky, twisted stuff? I don't know, there's room for a whole side-story here.

Ok, on that note I'm gonna finally try to take a break from dugpa at least for a little while. Damn Michael Ontkean & Bob theories...

[MasterMastermind]

That last theory is pretty interesting. Doesn't Leland shout "don't make me do this!" during the train car sequence? Also I always just assumed Bob's line about Pittsburgh was in reference to Windom Earle stabbing Cooper. I'd never before considered it could be something else!

[LostInTheMovies]

That last theory is pretty interesting. Doesn't Leland shout "don't make me do this!" during the train car sequence? Also I always just assumed Bob's line about Pittsburgh was in reference to Windom Earle stabbing Cooper. I'd never before considered it could be something else!

I think it was, but it suggests to me he was keeping an eye on Cooper all along - unless he's just omniscient.

[MasterMastermind]

I had assumed the latter, but the former makes a lot of sense given My Life, My Tapes and the scene of him trying people on.

[N. Needleman]

I watched most of FWWM again in full for the first time in awhile last night, and my opinion has not changed over the years on a lot of what Lost asks - I think Leland/BOB knows exactly who Gerard is in the traffic jam scene. I think it's always a delicate balance in FWWM especially as to who is in full control when or whether it's a mix.

My take: On one level Leland may be there, but you can see in Ray Wise's furtive and feral eyes that BOB is there, too. The engine is being revved for a reason. BOB wants to drown out Gerard to keep him from tipping off Laura, but I think Leland also wants to block it out for himself as well. Leland may not consciously know who Gerard is or what he represents - I doubt he does, in fact - but however much of him is present in that sequence seems to instinctively realize that Gerard is dangerous to him and must be kept away from him and his daughter. This, to me, is very representative of how much Lynch blurs the lines between BOB and Leland in the film. Leland also says to Laura, "I always thought you knew it was me!" That's him talking, not BOB, who speaks next. He then says "don't make me do this!" Is he talking to BOB or Laura, or both?

The point is, the film (IMO) indicates that a part of Leland is aware, is somewhat cognizant of his actions, of what he does or what is going on. Maybe that cognition is clearer and more sharp at some points than others, as in the traffic jam where he clearly is guilty and desperate to escape but still Leland and seemingly confused and frightened. That's why he weeps after the handwashing scene and goes to Laura, that's why all the rest of the above occurs as it does. (Incidentally, I think you can also clearly see BOB in the discussion after the traffic jam, at Mo's Motors - the way he stares at Laura, face hard, jaw almost doglike - that is BOB, but maybe also Leland. "Where were you, Laura? I didn't see you." He is challenging her. Leland is remembering at the same time, but the line between the two is so blurred there, purposely.)

I think Leland killed Teresa because she was blackmailing him, yes. It was a murder that served a specific purpose for Leland, the host. But would he ever have killed anyone without BOB in him since he was a boy? I have my doubts on that. And I think BOB made him that way, twisting him since he was young. I think it was symbiosis. BOB needs pain and suffering; he gets it from violence, rape and murder - Leland needs to eliminate a problem, BOB gets to kill a woman and begin spelling out his name. Maybe there are others, we'll probably never know. But in the case of Teresa, for BOB it was appetite, for Leland satisfaction (or at least relief).

As for Maddy, I think it was just what Cooper said it was in Episode 16. BOB (and Leland) was fascinated and obsessed with Laura, the one that got away; Maddy was a talisman to him, someone he could relive it all with. He killed her because he wanted to, because he enjoyed it and fed on it. I don't think there was any strategy or grand goal to that beyond BOB doing what he does. He uses human beings, violates them to violate others and feed forever. If he can't have them (the way he wanted to have Laura) he will kill/eat them. That's all it boils down to. He had enjoyed becoming a part of Maddy's life, torturing her, and he had fun killing her.

I don't know that BOB was ever plotting to leave Leland, once Laura died; I think he was just enjoying causing mayhem. Once he was caught, it was time to pull his ripcord, Leland was of no more use. I don't think BOB as an entity works with that much strategy so much as primal, basic goals and drives, or ones larger, more cosmic and unknowable vs. schematic.

Oh, as to what might have become of Leland if the train car had gone as planned - assuming for a moment BOB could not keep sway of both father and daughter, I would not have been surprised to see Leland (directed by BOB) wandering off into the night in a mysterious suicide or accident in the woods, for which a newly-assured Laura, the new host, could comfort her mother. Maybe the town would even whisper in huddled corners about how Leland Palmer might have been sleeping with the dead teenager from the poor family.

[MasterMastermind]

I always figured the Theresa Banks murder marked the beginning of Leland's relatively quick descent into lunacy. It's when he started to get full of holes, so to speak. I wonder if Bob was as stricken by Maddy as Leland, and just couldn't resist killing her again. Either he knew Leland was at the end of his rope and didn't much care, or really just couldn't help himself.

[N. Needleman]

I always figured the Theresa Banks murder marked the beginning of Leland's relatively quick descent into lunacy. It's when he started to get full of holes, so to speak. I wonder if Bob was as stricken by Maddy as Leland, and just couldn't resist killing her again.

I think BOB was, yes. But I think Leland was full of holes long before killing Laura or Teresa. The botched ceremony with Laura - and his killing her - just sent him into a spiral neither could escape. Do I think BOB ever registered fear or desperation during that, though: No. I think he had fun no matter what. He knew nothing could touch him.

[MasterMastermind]

Yeah, he was about to beat Cooper to death with a golf club in broad daylight, clearly he wasn't feeling desperate.

[N. Needleman]

To say nothing of Donna. We don't know what would have went down there.

[LostInTheMovies]

Great write-up, Needleman.

[N. Needleman]

It beats sitting around waiting for someone to bike through Everett in search of a silhouetted tree that vaguely resembles Sheryl Lee. Which I will now resume doing.