New here, some questions and observations

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mukuro
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New here, some questions and observations

Post by mukuro »

Hi, just starting off on these boards, but I imagine I will spend a fair amount of time here.

I got into Twin Peaks a little more than a year ago and my interest is continuing to grow. I am on my third viewing of the series and watched FWWM once(soon to be twice). I have been watching the recently released hour and a half worth of deleted scenes from FWWM and every other type of alternate scene, voice over, deleted scene I can get my hands on. I am, like I'm sure many of you are, hopelessly obsessed with unraveling the mysteries of Twin Peaks, especially the Black Lodge. I really enjoy getting other people's insights and hopefully I have a few worth looking at as well.

I have done some searching, but I think it is pretty hard to avoid making the traditional forum newbie error of bringing up topics already discussed, so bear with me and point me in the right direction if you don't mind. While I am pretty solid on the series, I will have some weak points in knowledge regarding the movie until I watch it again(first time it went over my head).

Here is one of the questions that bothers me-
Regarding Windom Earle in the Black Lodge, does anyone have a solid grip on how his activities in the Black Lodge play out between the time of his arrival and the loss of his soul? Obviously he intends to draw Cooper in and wants his soul, but there are two other elements that stick out to me.

One is his contacting Briggs through Sarah: "I'm in the Black Lodge with Dale Cooper(backwards)". I was under the impression that backwards speech was only done by spirits and the deceased(Cooper speaks normally, for example). Is this suggesting that he was using similar powers as the spirits or that he perhaps was already dead/subjugated? Also, was he contacting Briggs for a specific reason? Possibly asking for help(out of character, but he was obviously out of depth).

Secondly, when Laura's doppelganger first screams and approaches Cooper in the Black Lodge, Earle's face flashes right before Cooper runs away, trailing blood. The wound is similar to the wound that Earle inflicts, so coupled with his face it is suggestive that he is somehow related to Laura's doppelganger. Does anyone have a reading of that? Is he controlling her/her image?

Lastly, has there been a topic regarding Cooper's coffee in the black lodge?

Thanks.
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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mukuro wrote:Secondly, when Laura's doppelganger first screams and approaches Cooper in the Black Lodge, Earle's face flashes right before Cooper runs away, trailing blood. The wound is similar to the wound that Earle inflicts, so coupled with his face it is suggestive that he is somehow related to Laura's doppelganger. Does anyone have a reading of that? Is he controlling her/her image?
It's also very similar to Leland's wound which Bob "heals" at the end of FWWM. I'm not sure of the significance either (head injuries are also big with Bob/the Lodge btw - Annie, Coop smashing head in the mirror, Leland smashing it on the jail cell). something that gets discussed here from time to time is how the Maharishi (Lynch's guru, basically) preached to his inner circle that transcendental meditation generated "soma" in the bellies of meditators, which then feeds Hindu deities like Indra. He may have been speaking metaphorically, although a lot of anti-TM sites, etc, certainly take him at his word. Blood in stomach = garmonbozia in stomach = soma in stomach? An interesting link to contemplate, especially since I think bigger Hindu concepts and motifs play out in Fire Walk With Me (I'm working on a video now which will explore some of these concepts, which seem to derive more from the mysticism of the Upanishads than the ritualism of the Rig Veda). It's really hard to say where Lynch gets his ideas from, since even he hardly seems to know!

Also, someone else created a video about Cooper's coffee which is pretty interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=811UIhhGtXo. Martha Nochimson's book David Lynch Swerves discusses it in relation to quantum physics, as demonstrating the fluidity of matter and Cooper's failure to understand this and thus become entrapped in the Lodge. I'll try to dig up the exact quote.

Welcome to dugpa.
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

Post by Xryztofer »

mukuro wrote:One is his contacting Briggs through Sarah: "I'm in the Black Lodge with Dale Cooper(backwards)". I was under the impression that backwards speech was only done by spirits and the deceased(Cooper speaks normally, for example). Is this suggesting that he was using similar powers as the spirits or that he perhaps was already dead/subjugated?
It's been suggested that the reason why Cooper doesn't speak backwards is because we're experiencing the Lodge from his point of view. If we were experiencing things from someone else's POV, then we would hear Cooper speaking backwards. The problem I have with this suggestion is that in FWWM we still hear Cooper speaking normally (like when he tells Laura not to take the ring), even though we're presumably seeing things from Laura's POV, since she's the movie's protagonist.
Also, was he contacting Briggs for a specific reason? Possibly asking for help(out of character, but he was obviously out of depth).
I thought he was trying to draw him into the Lodge to conquer him in some way (maybe to take his soul as well as Cooper's), but that's just pure speculation. Speaking of Briggs, I tend to think that he's going to be a big part of freeing Cooper from the Lodge, somehow in tandem with the mysterious "Judy" who Phillip Jeffries mentioned (Judy + Garland, there's got to be a connection there).
Secondly, when Laura's doppelganger first screams and approaches Cooper in the Black Lodge, Earle's face flashes right before Cooper runs away, trailing blood. The wound is similar to the wound that Earle inflicts, so coupled with his face it is suggestive that he is somehow related to Laura's doppelganger. Does anyone have a reading of that? Is he controlling her/her image?
That part bugs me too, I can't make sense of it.
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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Xryztofer wrote:I thought he was trying to draw him into the Lodge to conquer him in some way (maybe to take his soul as well as Cooper's), but that's just pure speculation. Speaking of Briggs, I tend to think that he's going to be a big part of freeing Cooper from the Lodge
How will they do that without Don Davis, though?
mukuro
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

Post by mukuro »

Xryztofer wrote: It's been suggested that the reason why Cooper doesn't speak backwards is because we're experiencing the Lodge from his point of view. If we were experiencing things from someone else's POV, then we would hear Cooper speaking backwards. The problem I have with this suggestion is that in FWWM we still hear Cooper speaking normally (like when he tells Laura not to take the ring), even though we're presumably seeing things from Laura's POV, since she's the movie's protagonist.

I thought he was trying to draw him into the Lodge to conquer him in some way (maybe to take his soul as well as Cooper's), but that's just pure speculation. Speaking of Briggs, I tend to think that he's going to be a big part of freeing Cooper from the Lodge, somehow in tandem with the mysterious "Judy" who Phillip Jeffries mentioned (Judy + Garland, there's got to be a connection there).

That part bugs me too, I can't make sense of it.
The POV explanation makes some sense, but as you mentioned, does have some flaws.

Luring him there does sound plausible since he did the same to Cooper. I think I am reaching, but it is difficult to get a grip on what is going on from Earle's perspective while in the Black Lodge. Judy Garland, that is a great observation and I did not catch that at all! I also had the suspicion that Garland would be involved in a rescue.

That flashing face of Earle really does confuse me. The expression looks like a mix between glee and abject fear, but I can't figure it out.
LostInTheMovies wrote: It's also very similar to Leland's wound which Bob "heals" at the end of FWWM. I'm not sure of the significance either (head injuries are also big with Bob/the Lodge btw - Annie, Coop smashing head in the mirror, Leland smashing it on the jail cell). something that gets discussed here from time to time is how the Maharishi (Lynch's guru, basically) preached to his inner circle that transcendental meditation generated "soma" in the bellies of meditators, which then feeds Hindu deities like Indra. He may have been speaking metaphorically, although a lot of anti-TM sites, etc, certainly take him at his word. Blood in stomach = garmonbozia in stomach = soma in stomach? An interesting link to contemplate, especially since I think bigger Hindu concepts and motifs play out in Fire Walk With Me (I'm working on a video now which will explore some of these concepts, which seem to derive more from the mysticism of the Upanishads than the ritualism of the Rig Veda). It's really hard to say where Lynch gets his ideas from, since even he hardly seems to know!

Also, someone else created a video about Cooper's coffee which is pretty interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=811UIhhGtXo. Martha Nochimson's book David Lynch Swerves discusses it in relation to quantum physics, as demonstrating the fluidity of matter and Cooper's failure to understand this and thus become entrapped in the Lodge. I'll try to dig up the exact quote.

Welcome to dugpa.
That is a great point. The blood Bob pulls off of Leland does provide a similar look to it. I have read a little on this forum about how the concept of garmonbozia relates to soma, and that sounds good to me. I have to admit, I don't have any knowledge of Hindu concepts. I look forward to seeing your video.

I saw that video you linked. I watched all of her videos actually, and liked her opinions. The coffee one was definitely interesting. Recently I was looking at the log lady intro and she is talking about the pitch gum she chews in episode 8. "sometimes pitch oozes out. Runny pitch is no good to chew. Hard, brittle pitch is no good. But in between there exists a firm, slightly crusted pitch with such a flavor. This is the pitch I chew." It is not terribly meaningful on its own, other than the notion of balance between two extremes and seems similar to the three states of coffee. Also perhaps some clues on the references to gum peppered in the show which I have not heard too many theories on. Anyways, I will have to check out the Swerves book, sounds interesting.

Thanks!
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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LostInTheMovies wrote:
Xryztofer wrote:I thought he was trying to draw him into the Lodge to conquer him in some way (maybe to take his soul as well as Cooper's), but that's just pure speculation. Speaking of Briggs, I tend to think that he's going to be a big part of freeing Cooper from the Lodge
How will they do that without Don Davis, though?
It's strange to think Earle would use Sarah as a conduit - he never even mentions the Palmers at all throughout the series. I tend to think it was another entity, but who knows. I think the shooting script may have specified it was Earle. I expect Briggs to get his due in the upcoming novel... but I can't fathom S3 not showing Coop's grand escape. It just isnt something that can be tied up in the book, as the majority of the audience will likely be picking back up with the story in 2016 when it airs. Just my two cents.
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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Brad D wrote:It's strange to think Earle would use Sarah as a conduit - he never even mentions the Palmers at all throughout the series. I tend to think it was another entity, but who knows. I think the shooting script may have specified it was Earle.
The odd thing though is the whole diner sequence isn't even in the script, nor is Sarah Palmer. So it's probably something Lynch added. (Just went back to double check about Briggs - he's there but in a completley different scenario, storming Windom's cabin with Hawk to find Leo.)

Lynch was obviously not that into Windom as a grand supervillain so it does seem strange that he would have Sarah act as a conduit for him but I think the reasons people assume it's Windom are that a) apparently the closed-captioning say "Windom Earle" (don't know how close an eye Lynch keeps on CC and b) when we cut to the Lodge hallway, we hear what sounds like Windom's voice in the Lodge (although when Sarah talks the voice is actually different, not sure what that means).

Personally, I always liked the idea that it was Laura speaking through her mother, which would be both logical (by Twin Peaks logic, anyway) and a nice callback before she returns to the screen for the first time since halfway through the series. But probably wishful thinking given that context.
I expect Briggs to get his due in the upcoming novel... but I can't fathom S3 not showing Coop's grand escape. It just isnt something that can be tied up in the book, as the majority of the audience will likely be picking back up with the story in 2016 when it airs. Just my two cents.
I think Lodge stuff will be left for Lynch to handle onscreen. Even with all the lore Frost brought into the series, it was almost always backstory rather than something visual. That said, a big rescue doesn't really seem in Lynch's style; however Coop gets out of the Lodge I feel .

Because I just predicted that, I am now obligated to predict the opposite will happen haha. Predict Twin Peaks at one's own peril...
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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mukuro wrote:Recently I was looking at the log lady intro and she is talking about the pitch gum she chews in episode 8. "sometimes pitch oozes out. Runny pitch is no good to chew. Hard, brittle pitch is no good. But in between there exists a firm, slightly crusted pitch with such a flavor. This is the pitch I chew." It is not terribly meaningful on its own, other than the notion of balance between two extremes and seems similar to the three states of coffee.
Nice. I'm actually about to listen to the Log Lady intros today, all of them (some kind soul has compiled them back to back on YouTube so you don't have to call up each one on the discs). I've always found them frustratingly - if also intriguingly and sometimes hilariously - cryptic but after diving into Hindu literature this past week, their aphorisms really seem to be in the same spirit.

By the time Lynch did the Log Lady intros, I think he very clearly and emphatically had (re?)conceived Twin Peaks as a parable about the danger of imposing fearful divisions on reality. Repeatedly he emphasizes that the appearance of two (which - literally! - characterizes the show from the first shot to its last, not to mention the title) may be deceiving, and mask a deeper unity. Which is consistent with what happens to Coop in the Lodge, Laura in the train car, and indeed with most of Lynch's films since - not to mention his oft-stated spiritual views about the "Unified Field" (which also provides the name for his recent art show in Philadelphia).
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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LostInTheMovies wrote:
Xryztofer wrote:I thought he was trying to draw him into the Lodge to conquer him in some way (maybe to take his soul as well as Cooper's), but that's just pure speculation. Speaking of Briggs, I tend to think that he's going to be a big part of freeing Cooper from the Lodge
How will they do that without Don Davis, though?
Different actor. They had to replace Lara Flynn Boyle for FWWM, so there's some precedent.
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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LostInTheMovies wrote:
Brad D wrote:It's strange to think Earle would use Sarah as a conduit - he never even mentions the Palmers at all throughout the series. I tend to think it was another entity, but who knows. I think the shooting script may have specified it was Earle.
The odd thing though is the whole diner sequence isn't even in the script, nor is Sarah Palmer. So it's probably something Lynch added. (Just went back to double check about Briggs - he's there but in a completley different scenario, storming Windom's cabin with Hawk to find Leo.)

Lynch was obviously not that into Windom as a grand supervillain so it does seem strange that he would have Sarah act as a conduit for him but I think the reasons people assume it's Windom are that a) apparently the closed-captioning say "Windom Earle" (don't know how close an eye Lynch keeps on CC and b) when we cut to the Lodge hallway, we hear what sounds like Windom's voice in the Lodge (although when Sarah talks the voice is actually different, not sure what that means).

Personally, I always liked the idea that it was Laura speaking through her mother, which would be both logical (by Twin Peaks logic, anyway) and a nice callback before she returns to the screen for the first time since halfway through the series. But probably wishful thinking given that context.
I expect Briggs to get his due in the upcoming novel... but I can't fathom S3 not showing Coop's grand escape. It just isnt something that can be tied up in the book, as the majority of the audience will likely be picking back up with the story in 2016 when it airs. Just my two cents.
I think Lodge stuff will be left for Lynch to handle onscreen. Even with all the lore Frost brought into the series, it was almost always backstory rather than something visual. That said, a big rescue doesn't really seem in Lynch's style; however Coop gets out of the Lodge I feel .

Because I just predicted that, I am now obligated to predict the opposite will happen haha. Predict Twin Peaks at one's own peril...
I did assume Earle based on the CC, Briggs association with Earle, as well as the voice sounding "similar enough". That being said, you two are convincing. The voice is slowed and distorted, so it is nearly impossible to ascertain based on sound(EDIT it does sound like Earle when distortion is lost as it continues in the lodge). There could well be entities in the lodge with an as yet unexplained connection to Briggs. Laura is an interesting explanation.

I think everyone who's seen Twin Peaks is hoping to see Dale escape haha
LostInTheMovies wrote:
mukuro wrote:Recently I was looking at the log lady intro and she is talking about the pitch gum she chews in episode 8.
"sometimes pitch oozes out. Runny pitch is no good to chew. Hard, brittle pitch is no good. But in between there exists a firm, slightly crusted pitch with such a flavor. This is the pitch I chew." It is not terribly meaningful on its own, other than the notion of balance between two extremes and seems similar to the three states of coffee.
Nice. I'm actually about to listen to the Log Lady intros today, all of them (some kind soul has compiled them back to back on YouTube so you don't have to call up each one on the discs). I've always found them frustratingly - if also intriguingly and sometimes hilariously - cryptic but after diving into Hindu literature this past week, their aphorisms really seem to be in the same spirit.

By the time Lynch did the Log Lady intros, I think he very clearly and emphatically had (re?)conceived Twin Peaks as a parable about the danger of imposing fearful divisions on reality. Repeatedly he emphasizes that the appearance of two (which - literally! - characterizes the show from the first shot to its last, not to mention the title) may be deceiving, and mask a deeper unity. Which is consistent with what happens to Coop in the Lodge, Laura in the train car, and indeed with most of Lynch's films since - not to mention his oft-stated spiritual views about the "Unified Field" (which also provides the name for his recent art show in Philadelphia).
I am of the same impression that these intros are the product of a more clear conception of the events by Lynch. Most of the intros are going over my head, although some have a more easily discernible meaning. One of my favorites is from the first season's finale: "A drunken man walks in a way that is quite impossible for a sober man to imitate, and vice versa. An evil man has a way, no matter how clever — to the trained eye, his way will show itself. Am I being too secretive? No. One can never answer questions at the wrong moment. Life, like music, has a rhythm. This particular song will end with three sharp notes, like deathly drumbeats."
That is an awesome clue about Leland being the killer. I am guessing the three sharp notes are the three deaths attributed to Bob's possession of Leland: Laura, Teresa, and Maddy(not counting Leland himself, though). The show does have an obsession with doubling and I believe the final intro goes into that as well.
Last edited by mukuro on Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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mukuro wrote:I am guessing the three sharp notes are the three deaths attributed to Bob's possession of Leland: Laura, Teresa, and Maddy(not counting Leland himself, though). The show does have an obsession with doubling and I believe the final intro goes into that as well.
It's just three bullets fired at the end of the episode.
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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Xryztofer wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:
Xryztofer wrote:I thought he was trying to draw him into the Lodge to conquer him in some way (maybe to take his soul as well as Cooper's), but that's just pure speculation. Speaking of Briggs, I tend to think that he's going to be a big part of freeing Cooper from the Lodge
How will they do that without Don Davis, though?
Different actor. They had to replace Lara Flynn Boyle for FWWM, so there's some precedent.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo! I'd be almost as disheartened by that as by replacing Frank Silva.

More importantly, I don't think Lynch would do it.

Donna HAD to be in FWWM, the Major does not HAVE to be in the new series. And Donna was an ambiguous enough character (whose personality changed quite a bit as a result of Laura's death) so that in some abstract way you could justify a casting switch. Briggs = Don Davis in too specific a way for them to get away with that.
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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qbin2001 wrote:
mukuro wrote:I am guessing the three sharp notes are the three deaths attributed to Bob's possession of Leland: Laura, Teresa, and Maddy(not counting Leland himself, though). The show does have an obsession with doubling and I believe the final intro goes into that as well.
It's just three bullets fired at the end of the episode.
Right, I was digging too deep on that part and ignored the obvious.
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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Whoops, I never finished my previous thought about Coop (or rather, I guess, "the good Dale") getting out of the Lodge. I meant to say, however it happens I think it will be a result of actions or decisions he makes, not being rescued by someone else (though others can assist in his escape).
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Re: New here, some questions and observations

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LostInTheMovies wrote:Whoops, I never finished my previous thought about Coop (or rather, I guess, "the good Dale") getting out of the Lodge. I meant to say, however it happens I think it will be a result of actions or decisions he makes, not being rescued by someone else (though others can assist in his escape).
I always liked Engels' version of Truman and Mike "driving backwards through time" or something, so in my mind I picture an escape scene - but I'm pretty sure that's out the door now. I look at the situation as Coop suspended in time and space, and he can't get out on his own devices. But that's just my opinion. Gah I can't wait!
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