Differing Views on The Return

[Audrey Horne]

Yay, this thread is fun again!

[sylvia_north]

Green glove v BOB orb is one of the dumbest things I’ve seen on TV, period. I don’t care if it destroyed BOB completely or if it was “real” or superimposed Cooper face is to tell us this is just a dream or a tv show. I don’t care who Freddie is, though the actor is adorable, if not as cute as Sam.

Laura orb- also stupid, nearly ruins that otherwise beautiful scene.

No matter how that showdown resolved we’d be complaining, but it was a poor choice and it made me loathe the entirety of Twin Peaks and resent the decades I spent loving it.

The bad time at the traffic light scene is just loud and obnoxious. I mute it. I’ve lived in America all my life and only in NYC do people lay on the horn. Every time there’s gunshots in Twin Peaks, it’s not a ‘commentary on gun violence in America’ or whatever was said. That’s way too political of a leap for an apolitical filmmaker. If that reading gives the viewer satisfaction, congratulations to him or her. I get negative value from it. Mrs Tremond gives the photograph to Laura in FWWM in the RR lot there, so that traffic stop has particular character. That’s my only takeaway.

I changed my response to “just disappointed” because I don’t care anymore so I can watch it dispassionately. I’m on Part 5 and the only element setting my teeth on edge is r*tarded Lucy and Candace Clark, who is as obnoxious as a laying on a car horn. Life is too short to endure either of those sounds more than once.

I don’t care about any of the new threads of mystery, which are less and less interesting on every viewing. I really do enjoy Kyle’s dual performances and I can appreciate that these personalities were more interesting to explore than the special agent we knew.

[mtwentz]

I live in the northern suburbs of Georgia, U.S.A. and people lay on the car horn here all the time. It's nuts: I've had people swear at me, give me the middle finger, give other people the middle finger, chase other people down, threaten, scream, etc. The other day in Florida a pregnant woman deliberately ran into a motorcyclist, then when he chased her down to her home, she drew a gun on him and she was shot.

(It was a little better during peak COVID, but now it happening again.)

And yes, random gunfire happens. In big towns, in small towns, in suburbs. The danger is much worse in poorer neighborhoods, but no part of America is completely immune.

I had a guy come the other day to fix our garage door. He bragged about his gun which he keeps in his front seat. He told me he almost pulled it out on somebody who blocked his car from from backing out of a parking spot, until he realized the person in question was just a delivery person who had stopped off temporarily to drop off an item at local business. The delivery guy wasn't aware he was seconds away from possibly being shot.

I understand the diner/shooting/car honking scene might not be something everyone can relate to. For many of us, it hit home in a visceral way.
P

[LateReg]

I think the show often sounds better and much more layered in the forum comments than the actual show which just doesn't feel to me like a carefully designed puzzle box (some of it does, such as Coop's journey, but a lot of the side stories just do not). Many of the complex meanings attributed to it frankly feel like they're just being inferred by fans and weren't intended as such...

I just have to comment on this because...I agree with you and I say thank god it's not just a carefully designed puzzle box! That's why it works the way it does for many of us who enjoy picking up on and linking ambiguous threads. I don't think that any supporter here believes that it is all some meticulously designed puzzle box. In fact, there was an article I read a couple years back that damned puzzle boxes and talked about why shows like The Return and The Leftovers should not be classified as puzzle boxes because they're less about the plot and more about, well, other things.

I've mentioned this before, but here's how I think it works. Lynch and Frost sat down with a set of ideas in mind, and in the end what they first and foremost achieved/attempted was bringing those ideas to the screen. Not always pretty, not always obvious, sometimes very obvious, but always true to the ideas. I see a lot of those ideas recurring throughout and they add up to paint a picture of what is going on, and that is often represented through moods and images and sounds and repetition and tedium and slice-of-life. I agree with you that it can be repetitive, but the accumulation really makes me feel the coherency of the work. And I think that Lynch made it with an openness to follow those ideas as he grasped them out of thin air -- whether you want to call it TM-styled or whatever -- and I think that is also the best way for the viewer to engage with the work. It won't work for everyone, some may think the execution sucks. That's ok.

But a few of you have now called back to the diner-gunshot-honking sequence that MT Wentz and I have praised and parsed, and I just want to double back to that to explain. I don't know that all of what is in that scene is 100% intended to add up to what I have read into it. I don't think that matters, specifically because of the way Lynch operates and encourages interpretation. But I think it's all there to read into, and that it has echoes throughout the series that cause me to see it the way that I do. In that sense and due to repetition of ideas, none of it seems random.

Lynch may not be political, but Frost is extremely political, providing some of the tonal friction in The Return, and some of the politics of the series are, IN MY OPINION, undeniable, forceful, and even on-the-nose, easily comprising Lynch's most overtly political work. So yes, I believe that the sudden gunshot and the mother's reaction to it is some sort of political statement, even if it is just an honest/obvious depiction of the world as it now exists. Within the sequence you have a father and son (wearing army fatigues if I'm not mistaken) standing in the same pose that Bobby (someone who has changed) is shown to observe, and moments earlier you have a family conversation in which a daughter is making the same mistakes as her mother, who is then revealed to still be making the same mistakes. Given that The Return is all about being stuck in a loop -- is it future or is it past? -- it comes easily for me to believe that the sequence is a tight demonstration of generations doomed to repeat the past. And given that I also view The Return as demonstrating a societal decay, it's easy for me to say that the sick girl creates in me and represents a further feeling of pervading sickness, as it viscerally and confusingly expands upon the feeling I've already been observing. And the meta-narrative embedded into the story is, imo, extremely evident throughout as well, so one of the ways I instantly read the honker is in direct conversation with the viewer, who, as a member of the human race, is probably experiencing a sped-up society in desperate need of taking a breath, which is the other, more powerful feeling I get from the sequence. And the Uncle thing that I brought up and then you brought up...I have no idea what was intended there, but all I'm saying is that it's interesting that there's a missing Uncle in FWWM, an absent Uncle that the honker is on her way to see, and an Uncle that someone can't remember in a Roadhouse conversation. I'm not saying it was all intentional, but it all comes together and sends my brain firing in multiple directions, and as an afterthought I'm wondering why the hell Lynch has Uncles on the brain and what an Uncle may represent to him.

I just want to remind everyone in this massively entertaining thread that this is intended as nothing more than a defense of my own thinking, and some insight into it. But please note that I used the word "feeling" many times. I'm not working hard on intellectualizing these things; rather, the feeling pops into me and I go from there. Hell, I don't see any of the above as far-fetched whatsoever based on how I view the series and conversations I've had with others. And yes, I've seen some laughable theories in my time, too. But not very often on these boards.

[LateReg]

I live in the northern suburbs of Georgia, U.S.A. and people lay on the car horn here all the time. It's nuts: I've had people swear at me, give me the middle finger, give other people the middle finger, chase other people down, threaten, scream, etc. The other day in Florida a pregnant woman deliberately ran into a motorcyclist, then when he chased her down to her home, she drew a gun on him and she was shot.

(It was a little better during peak COVID, but now it happening again.)

And yes, random gunfire happens. In big towns, in small towns, in suburbs. The danger is much worse in poorer neighborhoods, but no part of America is completely immune.

I had a guy come the other day to fix our garage door. He bragged about his gun which he keeps in his front seat. He told me he almost pulled it out on somebody who blocked his car from from backing out of a parking spot, until he realized the person in question was just a delivery person who had stopped off temporarily to drop off an item at local business. The delivery guy wasn't aware he was seconds away from possibly being shot.

I understand the diner/shooting/car honking scene might not be something everyone can relate to. For many of us, it hit home in a visceral way.
P

I'm in Illinois. I don't even want to drive anymore at this point. It's perhaps due to the amount of people on their phones, but I have never seen more accidents than I have in the past two years. Not only that, people seem to be driving worse and worse, and with an anger that I can only assume stems from their frustration with the world in general - the politics, the COVID, the endless arguments, etc.

Bringing what you're saying about guns into film, I thought that Hell or High Water presented a picture of society returning to a wild, wild west state due to the amount of people who tote guns around like they're no different than a wallet or car keys. Part 18 of The Return has always reminded me of that as well. I don't think it's any coincidence that Part 18, like Hell or High Water, is set in Texas and features modern cowboys. I think that's both a genre-thing as well as a political and societal thing.

[AXX°N N.]

One can be of the opinion that there aren't 'random, meaningless' throw-ins in S3 and that some can go overboard with analysis. I still feel vindication from when Lynch no-no'd the ridiculous "you have to play parts together" nonsense early on after S3 ended. I also really, heavily dislike the Twin Perfect "I have the thesis of TP figured out, here's my six hour explanation," when so much of it just doesn't pass the gut check for me and seems like intensely convoluted misreading. In those cases, I very much do think they're seeing things that aren't there. But I've rarely seen discussion here that feels like that.

The least an artist can do, on par with proofreading an email before hitting submit, is to ask the point of anything you lay down on the script, much less on-screen. Do I think that means every single scene is a puzzle box? No. Do I think there are surprisingly layered nuances in scenes that don't initially seem so deep? Yes. Are some scenes purely slapstick for the sake of it? Uh-huh. But do I think the existence of those scenes still has the additional layer of being playfully straight-faced, given that so much else isn't? Yep. I don't think Lynch & Frost sat down to concoct a sequence of cipher codes, I think they put in whatever they did because it felt right in some way, and what constitutes feeling right is different for every scene. But honestly, I dislike when critique or appraisal gets to the point where it's making grand presumptions about author intent, good or bad character or competency. I much prefer the work be taken by what does or does not work within the work itself, separate from imaginings of Lynch being a meanie or a crypto-god.

To me, I feel certain things when I watch S3, and anything I put into words is attempting to match that feeling. One of my favorite scenes is actually the last ending credits, because it makes me feel extremely upset about something I feel is truthful, but if I were to put it in words it wouldn't result in something so long as an essay.

[enumbs]

I think most of the discussion of Twin Perfect on this board has been extremely critical - certainly from me in any case. It sometimes seems that people who dislike season 3 are more positive about his style of analysis, perhaps because that kind of conspiracy-theory explanation is necessary in order to salvage the season for them. I’ve seen lots of comments from people saying things like “I didn’t understand or like season 3, but now I’ve seen this explanation video it all makes sense!”

[Histeria]

I’ve seen lots of comments from people saying things like “I didn’t understand or like season 3, but now I’ve seen this explanation video it all makes sense!”

As for the thread's question of intended meaning: meaning in art isn't encoded. It's decoded. It means whatever the reader thinks it means.

The artist is paramount until the message reaches recipients. Some authors create texts that lend themselves to more interpretations than others.

Lynch's famous rebuke to the question of simulcasting P17+P18 was in response to a horribly worded question by the reporter. He didn't ask if the similarities are coincidental or not. He asked whether Lynch intended they be watched simultaneously. Lynch obviously didn't intend that. Or we would have been presented with the message via that medium. Of course he's gonna say "Bullshit."

Lynch is quick to rebut (as a point of order) assertions and "explanations" over his intent during the process of filmmaking. He's a lot less eager to respond to interpretations of the art itself, because he has consistently maintained that his interpretation is irrelevant. If you think red drapes are a metaphor for blood, he'd say have at it. He could have simply been left with the colour red because the prop store was out of blue drapes in 1989. But the revelation that it was all happenstance doesn't suddenly render invalid the decades of rich interpretations on the significance of red in TP.

However, if I claim Lynch intended for the Twin Peaks Mountains to represent a symbol for electric currents or whatever the heck, he'd probably have a word to say. Same with Jeffries being inside a percolator. It's a statement of fact, not a literary interpretation.

A lot of the analysis of Twin Peaks rests on assertions of factual statements and the assumption there's an intended set of clues intended deep within yhe bits and bytes of the DCP. And that if you keep digging through the coda embedded by Lynch and Frost, you'll reach the White Lodge of Explanatory Omniscience.

Imo, there's no such thing as over-interpretation. But over-explanation is out of control and at times actively cheapens the text. And I say that as someone who can easily fall into that trap myself.

On one hand, I genuinely think Lynch and Frost peppered the third season with echos of FWWM and S1+S2 that are abstract enough to plausibly deny as coincidental. But I reject out of hand the attempt at 1) claiming to know exactly which ones are coincidental and which are deliberate and 2) attaching plot significance to things that will be missed by the overwhelming majority of viewers. Frost specifically warned against this mode of viewing.

Was it a coincidence that Tremayn says "Gotta light?" right in front of a photo of grubby woodsmen? Maybe. Maybe not. Does it actually matter either way when it took years for one person to notice it and post online? No. I don't think it does.

The presence of these mnemonic echos adds volumes of interpretive scope. They can help us understand but not explain. And for a work like this, the epistemological distinction between explanation and understanding is crucial even if they're often conflated.

[Kilmoore]

Imo, there's no such thing as over-interpretation. But over-explanation is out of control and at times actively cheapens the text.

Under-explanation is even worse. When every interpretation is equal - even the results of a clearly disturbed minds - and there is no story, purpose or meaning actually present in the source, there is no need for the source. We can just ramble meaningless words about the world in general, there was no reason for the "art" ever to be created.

[Brad D]

"As for the thread's question of intended meaning: meaning in art isn't encoded. It's decoded. It means whatever the reader thinks it means."

I'm glad you said this, Histeria. Probably my main frustration is a strong suspicion s3 just doesn't mean anything. And that in itself is a paradox. Lynch and Frost had the time and the terms to do what they want, or say whatever they want. And looking back on the original, the series was a bit of a hot potato between multiple creators and writers and directors. For whatever reason, that was much more compelling to me. I love the journey from finding a body on a beach, all leading to a protagonist suspended in a metaphysical purgatory, while his earthly vessel is hijacked by the original evil. Attempting to find an intriguing thread in the Return is almost impossible for me. I feel like there were plenty of cool pathways out of the first four hours to follow, some cool scenes along the way, but they all just led down rabbit holes where Lynch and Frost just shrug their shoulders, and everything turns to dust, literally. Before the Return started, my wife asked me, "What if you dont like it?" and I laughed, thinking that would be impossible. So, the disappointment is real and confusing, struggling and failing to find a point to it all. Someday, I will re-watch and see if I can.

[Histeria]

Under-explanation is even worse.

Maybe it is. I was referring specifically to over-explanation.

When every interpretation is equal

I haven't said they are. Validity and equality don't mean the thing. I find some interpretations a lot stronger than others. But if someone is "deranged" (your words) then their subjective interpretation is valid for their "deranged" subjective state of mind. That doesn't mean I give it equal weight alongside a peer-reviewed article in a top academic journal.

[missoulamt]

Attempting to find an intriguing thread in the Return is almost impossible for me.

Amen. Leland's pain and struggle in the original was real. Not much real stuff going down in TR apart from the captivating scenes with Sarah, Dougie looking at Sunny Jim with sadness and a few other scenes I can't think of right now. But given the number of hours of TR, *so* much filler.

[Audrey Horne]

Ha, am I allowed to say I was just bored?

I understand the analysis and theorizing, but during the actual rollercoaster ride I want to go on the ride, and most of those first fifteen hours I was nodding off or being interested because of one foot stuck in the original series and filtering it through that.

There were moments I loved and in particular because it gave it a jolt of energy and possibilities.

They were the end of that first two parter when we saw Sarah watching the nature program leading into the reintroduction of the Roadhouse- where The Chromatics played and Shelly and James return. I had goosebumps. Compared to all the reboots in the last twenty years, this one finally felt like a natural one.

Part sixteen, although I don’t remember most of it, I do know had me out of my brain and jumping up and down in legit joy. When Cooper finally said, “I am the FBI,” and when Audrey had the horrific flash of electricity waking up in the white room. Suddenly two characters had energy and urgency.

I was shocked the finale went back to such a sluggish and cerebral pace. I kept thinking in retrospect how could they not see how exciting this type of awakening is, and if used as a midpoint to the eighteen part story could’ve given it a live wire ticking time bomb element.

[missoulamt]

Actually, I quite like the sinister and slow paced vibe of the final episode where Laura and Cooper are driving through the night, stopping at a gas station and what not. Very eerie. Wish there was more of that stuff

[Audrey Horne]

Yeah but for me, if practically everything is that pace, including the action sequences, it loses its power.